19 replies to this topic

[LongGone]

Richard Clark, well known car audio legend, once did a test with several well known car audio people, reviewers, manufacturers, etc.

He sat them down in front of two amplifiers, one from a high-end manufacturer and one generic one out of china/korea, et al. He then conducted what is known as an ABX test where you listen to amp A, then amp B and then you listen to Amp X, which could be either A or B. The listeners know what amp A and B are but they do not know the identity of amp X. After listening they are asked to correctly identify amp X as A or B.

This test was repeated with many high quality amps from all the big manufacturers. One would assume that most of the listeners could hear the difference between the expensive US made amps and the cheap asain made amp, but the correct identification if Amp X was only 50%, in other words a very similar result that would be returned by guessing!

What does this mean? I don't know, but Richard Clark concludes that most amps sound substantially similat used within their limits and that most of the differences people hear can be attributed to differing volume levels.

I would love to repeat this test here one day, and when I finally get around to it, I will invite CAA members who live in Brisbane or close by who are interested to attend.

[T-Bro]

sounds like a great idea! this would then provide some additional evidence for the debate, from a local perspective. we'll then see how many people are confident their amps are so sonically superior

[mick007]

Point of topic????
These tests are a dime a dozen everyone has heard some sory about certin high end amps sounding simalar to their cheap buddies. You want quality you buy the amp you want, Remember K-mart did it with A/C cola (coke and Pepsi.) A/C cola is similar to coke so why do people buy coke?? Cause it's coke, plain and simple.
Mick

[splbound]

I thought this amplifier ABCDEFGHI... whatever class amp SQ differences have been sorted??

I have no problem believing that there may be no subjective SQ difference between classes when an amplifier is within its limits.... Hell if an amplifier is designed to do what is it supposed to do then if inputs are the same the outputs should be the same between amplifiers when matched to the same volume levels.

I'd still want to listen to them myself as it's my brain not anybody elses that will do the sound processing ... I still don't see why people can't understand that people will just hear things differently to others because of that fact, even when all parameters between the two measure exactly the same!! Just like a colour can appear red to one person and pink or purple to another???

We all usually push the amps past their limits anyway and to me its the performance beyond the amplifiers limits that would be much more interesting to compare.

[ultim8DTM5]

Quote

Originally posted by KraSE:
When RC changed the amps from alpine to kenwood in his SQ car (one he paid for not built) the car didn't sound the same anymore so why if all amps sound the same  

Psychoacoustics.

[ripped]

i'll put my hand up with the d2 being the "crap" sounding amp in tests... surely someone has a "good" sounding sub amp they would like to test mine against?

[shiny_car]

Quote

Originally posted by splbound:
We all usually push the amps past their limits anyway and to me its the performance beyond the amplifiers limits that would be much more interesting to compare.

this is pretty much an excellent point that i think is very pertinent.

i wouldn't go as far as to suggest pushing an amp 'beyond its limits' for the sake of comparisons, but i do believe you need to push an amp to near its limits to demonstrate an audible difference.

it's my understanding the RC simply runs the amps at low power outputs for the demo/comparison. we all know that an unstressed amp finds it dead simple to run a set of splits/small speakers without raising a sweat, and should sound good doing it. it's only when you up the volume do you realise what you are paying for (for better or worse).

it's like comparing cars. RC's principle is that all amps are the same. well, likewise a ferrari and a lada (no offence to lada drivers!). at 40km/h, they both drive along perfectly well. they hold their speed, they get you from A to B. what's the difference? nothing i guess, for they perform the job identically.

but hey, how about trying to do it flat out. hmm, i think the lada wins...oh hang on, maybe not.

so you pay $50 for a lump of metal to run some splits, then you pay upwards of $2K for an audison VRx. you telling me there's no difference? ah ok, at 10WRMS per channel outputs they'll sound pretty darn similar, fair enough.

[Sonic Nirvana]

Being a Silly Old Enthusiast, I have to take issue with the notion that RC is a *cough* legend

The "too clever by half, I am smarter than you" thing got tired a long time ago. I digress.

There are NO SQ comp-winning cars running cheap amps at ANY power level.

Nuff said.

[Mr_Bob]

i'd love to grab a high placing SQ car, and change the guts of teh expensive amps for guts from cheap amps. (of equivalent power output)
and see if it still scores the same,
bet it doesn't

[NUTTTR]

Well, if all amps are the same, why wouldn't i bridge a boss amp that does do a TESTED 250wrmsx2 (4 channel version) instead of my audison that does 200x2? why? because the boss DOESN'T sound as good, it's not just the level of amplification, it's the texture and colouring that each amp adds to the music that counts..... Anyone heard of "fast" amps and "slow" amps, i remember reading *years and years* ago that different amps process sounds at slightly different speeds, i reckon this is true, maybe it was psycho accoustics, or something similar, but, i swear my NAD amp is "faster" than my dad's cheaper yamaha amp.... RC's test has a few flaws, you can't use anything Dynamic...... which also attributes to the previous point i made... Not all of us drive around listening to tones, do we? But, if we did, i'm sure a boss amp will produce the same tone as a similar speced (in wrms) amp will sound pretty bloody similar....... however, put on dance with 160+ bpm, and see if it keeps up then
Aaron

[Cyberpunky]

You guys are sort of missing the point of teat. The tset shows that if we limit a good amp to a cheaper amps max clean power, then you wont hear a difference, but as this may be very low power, we do get something the test wont show with a quality amp and thats heaps of clean power. We also get quality xovers etc and most importantly reliability.

Dont buy an amp because its meant to sound better as it wont but it may go substantialy louder, be more reliable, and even look better. As for RC changing amps, it wasnt for SQ reasons IMO, it was no doubt financially motivated.
justy my $0.02 worth
peace
cyberpunky

[Bassaholic]

Quote

Originally posted by ubugger:
however, put on dance with 160+ bpm, and see if it keeps up then      

160 Bpm wouldn't matter.. Just because the BPM has increased, doesn't mean the attack and decay of the kick drum sound has been changed at all. Unless of course the drum sound was recorded at a lower bpm and then been pitched up..


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Here a thread that is a complilation of the challenge conditions and all relevent replys/revisions on the subject.
(That were originally posted on the carsound.com forum.. You can of course do a search there if you want).

If you read all of it, you will notice that he WILL allow the amplifiers to be driven into clipping, provided the ACTUAL power output differs by no more than 10%.. So much for amplifiers with similar power outputs sounding different to each other when clipped?

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread....&threadid=18815

[ January 13, 2003, 23:31: Message edited by: Bassaholic ]