33 replies to this topic

[smeg]

When I think SQ I automatically think "BIG $$$$"

Is anyone else like this? I equate SQ in my mind with high end equipment, mortgage your soul kind of stuff.

I'm going for SQ this time more than SPL, to me SQ is a little more involved than SPL where the not so well kept secret is Big ported enclosures and big power

The thing that gets me with SQ is that it is so subjective. With SPL/DB Drags it's easy to measure and get a definitive answer as to which is "best" - the guy with the highest reading.

SQ is not like that - one mans headache is music to anothers ears.

Off track a bit there - my question is - to achieve good SQ do you have to buy the best? Or is achieving good SQ only down to the listener? In a comp, how is SQ defined? Can you objectively approach SQ, with an equation ie A + B - d = x where X = SQ?

How does an installer approach a customers request for a top notch SQ system?

I've been beating these questions around in my head because I want an SQ system with balls, but who do I ask for advice? Cos no one else has my ears, how do they know what SQ means to me?!

Bloody hell, by brain just gave up!

[ January 10, 2003, 13:26: Message edited by: smeg ]

[NowHearThis]

I believe SQ is 30% equipment and 70% install. So if you do a killer install with average gear you can have a better sounding system than another guy who has has sold his soul to buy the best but has no idea on installation.

[i_am_maximo]

SQ doesn't really have to mean you have to mortgage your soul etc., but usually the people who have an awesome SQ system have the cash to back it up, with their $4000 multimedia managers and their superior staging( what makes it superior I don't know). But yeah you get the gist of it. If you have good enough equipment and you stage it right, SQ becomes a breeze.

[NowHearThis]

[ January 10, 2003, 13:41: Message edited by: NowHearThis ]

[NowHearThis]

Oh yeah, and definitely trust your ears. Not the advice of a salesperson or a feature in a magazine, or any other opinion that is marketing/profit motivated. They are good to get ideas but the final decision should be yours. After all YOU work hard for your money and YOU have to listen to your sound system. No one else.

Good luck.
Pat.

[i_am_maximo]

That's another way to put it..

[smeg]

I think I need to come to some Melb meets and sit in some cars for a listen, I hate demoing in Car audio stores - Stylyn has the best set up I've seen yet and they don't have half the speakers set up that I really wanna hear :/

[[schmick]]

Hey Smeg,

Seems like a very in depth question and no doubt one which will attract alot of different answers.. I'm not an expert either and am still a very baby novice, but here's my 2 cents..

I guess its 'human car sound quality nature' to automatically think you have to spend big bucks to get a good SQ sound... But after researching and reading countless amount of posts here on CAA Forums its perhaps not just the equipment which generates good SQ...

As you mentioned SQ is somewhat more involved than for instance SPL, even though I've never had any direct association with SPL as I just don't feel the need to build a stereo to crank out the loudest bass etc etc... and I think this is where 'you don't have to spend huge amounts of $$$ to get good SQ' comes into play...

I think alot of people will say, its all about doing a good installation (ie. quality sound deadening), speaker placement (ie. imaging, stage height,etc), speaker mounting (ie. on MDF baffles) etc etc etc... I think if you do all these any component you buy will of course be performing at its 'peak'...

I don't know to much about how the judge SQ, but I would recommend you to read some of the tutorials over at http://www.elitecaraudio.com as they are very detailed in terms of SQ...

I guess I'm on the same boat as you, I'm trying to build a good SQ System without breaking the bank... Even though when you consider some of the compents I've choosen (eg. Audison LRx Amps, Dynaudio or Focal, Image Dynamics, etc) and perhaps a budget of some $4,000 that seems like big bucks.. but built up properly and overtime probably would be heaps better than just outlaying a smaller amount to have it all at once...

I'm sure Shiny_Car, VTi-2 and the like will have a much more detailed answer to your question....

Good Luck... and i'm sure everybody would agree 'SQ.... is out there!!' ahahahaha...

[shiny_car]

Quote

Originally posted by NowHearThis:
I believe SQ is 30% equipment and 70% install.

i tend to agree, that installation is a BIG part of achieving high SQ.

top quality components help for sure, but it's not necessary, and a poorly installed $10K system is pointless.

one of the nicest SQ systems i auditioned was in fuddbutter's g/f's car. it's since been upgraded, but at the time i came away shaking my head in disbelief: how did it sound so good for so little?

for ~$1200, it was a basic setup, and involved prudent buying of discounted components, all of which were good (but not audiophile) quality. there was a basic sony HU, hertz HSK splits but changed the tweeters to mtx (retained hertz woofer and xover), and a single 10" sub. powered off a hertz 4-channel amp. the warmth and soundstaging was fantastic, and sooooo coherent. it left me worried i couldn't achieve the same with what i had, worth much, much more.

it takes some thoughtful planning, some good quality components, and nice installation. if on a budget, i'd follow some basic rules:

*stick with a basic setup: HU, 4-channel amp, 2-way splits, single sub. minimising the equipment should mean buying better quality components, rather than sacrificing quality for 2 amps, rear speakers, and multiple subs.
*match the power output for the speakers and sub: most decent splits run to their best with 60WRMS of power; no need to sacrifice quality in the amp to find 100+WRMS per channel; likewise, don't try and power 2x 12" subs with only 250WRMS of power; have plenty of power for each sub, which may mean only one sub...then get the most out of it
*balance the system: another reason not to have multiple subs...if you're only running some 6" splits with lowish power; if you installed 2x 12" subs, you'd end up turning them down just so the subbass doesn't overpower the splits
*pay attention to careful installation
*tune it properly: gain and xover settings should be tuned for best overall cohesion; it can take time, so don't expect to set it properly first time

for installation, you will get much better results doing lots of behind-the-scenes work:

*sound deaden: reduce resonances and vibrations in the front doors where the woofers will be mounted; a solid enclosure equates to far better sound reproduction; doing parts of the boot will remove annoying rattles caused by the sub
*seal the doors: big service holes in the doors provide massive leaks; ideally the woofers would be in a sealed enclosure; whilst not practical (window seals, drainage holes, door lock rods, etc), you can go a long way towards perfect by using something like 3mm mdf cut to shape then secured/screwed to the door; seal the gaps between the mdf and door with adhesive foam-rubber stripping
*optimise tweeter location: whether it be in the kickpanels or higher up...spend the time to experiment and place them in the best spot; angle them for best imaging/stereo
*mount door woofers solidly
*build a strong subbox of optimal design/dimensions; ported can be fine, as long as the sub suits ported

blah, blah, i guess i don't need to really go into all this stuff...i think i got carried away.

so, as long as the components are decent, you can achieve a LOT.

[smeg]

mmmm...preparation!

just as well I love pulling **** apart (and have a knowledgeable back up team to put it back together!!)

[Bodyjar]

Problem is, for someone who isnt very good at installing components or woodwork/fibregass, the 70% installation quickly becomes 70% cost

[jambo]

As I said in another thread, a guy took out an SQ comp I went to with just a set of Alpine 6066 splits as front stage which you could pick up for $80 or something second hand now. I don't think there was any tricky deadening either, just lots of MDF in the doors to make them nice and strong. Sounded awesome.

[T-Bro]

ok lemme impart what i learned the hard way

unfortunately, SQ generally does cost a bit of money, while you can put together a BOOM system for around $2,000 to impress the police and your grandmother, you wont go very far in SQ with that kind of budget. high end speakers, source units, custom podwork, sound deadening, processors, amps etc, all add up, and it takes time (the one thing most people hate having to give up).

HOWEVER, installation and tuning is extremely important and takes priority over everything else, so you can get a very good result just by doing these things well, and focusing only on the components that make the most difference (primarily your choice of front speakers in my opinion).

i personally get sick of seeing idiots with mega dollar 'elite' components, but slap-dash weekend installations, which ends up making it all sound like crap. the best SQ cars focus on the research and installation and setup and tuning and optimisation and development and experimentation and testing and then doing it all over again until it sounds right - not on glitzy show-off components that make little if any audible difference.

oh one other thing - the sad reality is, almost all installation shops really couldn't give a rats a$$ if your system sounds good or not, and i can say that confidently from all that i have seen. almost all stores will sell you stuff without you having even heard it, they can rarely if ever describe the sonic performance of components they sell like a true audiophile (its either really bassy, or really clear), and when installing, i've yet to see anywhere that asked what the owners listening/driving preferences were, or warned them on what was not achievable or realistic expectations, or asked what sonic or musical outcome the owner was after, or asked if the owner was happy with the sound quality after it was installed, or made any guarantees as part of the contract as to how the system would be spectrally balanced or stage/image etc. the reality is, most installers are simply glorified auto electricians, whose love and appreciation and dedication and emotional connection to live sound is, well, non-existent.

because i mean seriously, someone who is highly skilled at wiring a headunit, or making a sub box, or using fibreglass for a living and doing so with a rushed turnaround to keep costs down and go on generating a profit, has to cut corners and be practical, ignore the little things that the owner probably wont see or hear, be a no-frills kind of person. and it is these kinds of trades people who generally lack the finesse and attention to detail and finer appreciation (ie the LOVE) that goes into making a trully orgasmic sound system for you.

short and curly - if you want serious sound quality, find the rare installers who love music as much as you and that will treat you like a friend, or better yet, do the installation yourself and drive with pride

just my pessimistic 2c (less GST)

[smeg]

Or you can learn how to do it all yourself with the help of guys who love it just like you do. I have had offers of help from guys on this site since day 1 (almost day 1 anyways, check out my member # LOL) and it's been from guys who not only have the knowledge already themselves, but are keen to learn more. It rocks, this site is the best thing to happen to Australian Car Audio AFAIC

[T-Bro]

that's it my friend, learn from those with experience, try and experiment, make some mistakes, do things yourself, love learning, crave the pride of a job well done that is all yours, focus on the music and its natural recreation, persue the emotional connection with the artists, feel total control over your system and its creation and refinement - then LAUGH at all the bogans with their poor-sounding 'yeah pick it up after lunch mate' esk-yoo systems