Hey all,
I own a 1980 Celica liftback with a blaupunkt headunit and some kenwood 6" in the front. I am soon to upgrade this frontstage with a pair of Hertz HSK165's along with a Audison SRx2 amp. Door pods and SD will also be made/done to the doors.
Because its a liftback, and celicas dont have a parcel tray, anyone and everyone can see into the back with ease, making it a target for thieves if a sub were to be placed in the back. I also dont have enough money at the moment to include a sub, but later on i hope to purchase one, along with a damn fine alarm system!
My question to you is, will a pair of Hertz 6.5" be good enough on there own?
If no, my options are:
1. The celica has 4" stock speakers in the dash up top, this could be replaced by some aftermarket ones which i could run off the HD.
2. The celica also has 4" stock in the back, which could also be replaced and run off the HD.
I was wondering if option 1 might give me a really awesome sounding front stage, cause the celica's are only two seaters anyway (basically).
Then again saying that, option 2 gives the "surround" effect.
But yeah i'd like ur opinions, subs will also be a possibility later on along with an alarm
Thanks very much
[ December 22, 2003, 21:42: Message edited by: silly ]
0
Just splits without subby?
Started by silly, Dec 22 2003 11:40 PM
9 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 23 December 2003 - 12:51 AM
IMO, just stick with a single pair of splits up front run off the amp... don't bother putting 4" speakers up front, you'll just ruin your sound quality.
The 4" speakers up front will just give you a louder midrange and highs, but at the cost of destroying any soundstage you could achieve, and all without adding any real bass...
If you like, put some 4"'s in the rear (run off the HU) just for rear fill, but if it was me, I'd keep them faded well down.
Concentrate on SD'ing your front doors and doing a good install on the HSK's, and you won't go wrong.
This is all IMO.
The 4" speakers up front will just give you a louder midrange and highs, but at the cost of destroying any soundstage you could achieve, and all without adding any real bass...
If you like, put some 4"'s in the rear (run off the HU) just for rear fill, but if it was me, I'd keep them faded well down.
Concentrate on SD'ing your front doors and doing a good install on the HSK's, and you won't go wrong.
This is all IMO.
#3
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Posted 23 December 2003 - 05:21 AM
so there was NO model available with a parcel shelf??
ever made one before? or are those boot blind things available for the celicas? ie. like the rollout things you can get for station wagons etc that pull out liek blinds?
anyway...
if sub is def. outta the question, then make some damn good pods, and sd the doors like there is no tomorrow. outer skin, inner skin, seal all the holes, etc.
once you'v egot that done, start plannign your stealth 8 inch sub install
nick
ever made one before? or are those boot blind things available for the celicas? ie. like the rollout things you can get for station wagons etc that pull out liek blinds?
anyway...
if sub is def. outta the question, then make some damn good pods, and sd the doors like there is no tomorrow. outer skin, inner skin, seal all the holes, etc.
once you'v egot that done, start plannign your stealth 8 inch sub install
nick
#4
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Posted 24 December 2003 - 03:29 AM
How about ditching the spare, making a fibreglass box in the wheel well, installing a grill over the sub and then carpeting over it - completely stealth!
But to answer your wuestion, it is possible to have good SQ without a sub, but it isn't neccesarily the best idea - equalization, woofers that have a large amount of linear xmax. (as well as a decent amount of amplfier headroom, ie power)
The big limitation is either volume, or low bass response - it is hard to play loud at 30-40hz with such limited displacement.
[ December 24, 2003, 01:46: Message edited by: Bassaholic ]
But to answer your wuestion, it is possible to have good SQ without a sub, but it isn't neccesarily the best idea - equalization, woofers that have a large amount of linear xmax. (as well as a decent amount of amplfier headroom, ie power)
The big limitation is either volume, or low bass response - it is hard to play loud at 30-40hz with such limited displacement.
[ December 24, 2003, 01:46: Message edited by: Bassaholic ]
#5
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Posted 24 December 2003 - 05:48 AM
Ahhh the good ol celicar.. I still have my old liftback minus the (good) stereo gear due to security reasons.
I thought of building parcel tray but the tray will have to cover huge area and I'd have nowhere to hinge the tray from without making a custom mounts... (Don't want that parcel tray to come flying at me when braking hard!!) Too much trouble for what it's worth IMO. What I had was that standard roll away cover that covered the boot.
I managed to shoehorn a hinged amp rack 3 amps and 2 sealed Solobaric 15's behind there , but had to ditch the cover. So there is plenty of space there if you just plan it out, without having to attack the spare tyre well. Security wise this was bretty bad coz you can easily see the lot. I guess I could have built a trim cover that attatched to the box to cover the lot but I never got around to that stage. I did have 20% tint on the car at the time and it was pretty hard to see in at night.
What I did for a front stage was attacked the kick panels. There is plenty of space behind the kick panels for 4in splits in their own fibreglass enclosure. I think a pair of 6.5inchers will fit in there without too much trouble either just depends on your glassing skills. I was planning on fitting 5 1/4in splits down there as my next upgrade before rational thinking got hold of me.
If you don't want a sub. I had fit a pair of IDQ 8's in the doors with a 18mm mdf spacer ring and by making a bigger speaker hole in the metal. The IDQ's have a pretty deep mounting depth so I reakon that most 8inchers will fit in the doors with a 18mm spacer and trimming to the metal speaker hole. The window just clears the magnet.
Just make sure you deaden the doors to the max and cover the access holes. What will probably piss you off the most is rattling door linkages... which I never really did get totally rid of.
Definitely try and secure the pod/spacer ring to the door metal. Mounting the pods just to the door trim did not cut it for me especially with the 8's. What you want is to totally separate the front of the speaker from the back as much as you can. Any leaks will kill your midbass/bass.
I got decent output from them 8's in the doors when I had the sub box out, corssing them over to play 200Hz and down while the 4inchers played 200Hz and up. Don't expect deep bass from them though.
Another place I spied for possible sub locations was where the rear passenger seats armrests are. I think there is a cavity behind the trim panels to build fibreglass enclosures into. Enough methinks for 8 inchers to go there. I never got to explore that option though so It might be worth a try.
Other than that you can look to the glovebox to fit a small fibreglass enclosure there..
Anyways back to your question I currently have a set of 6.5in splits in the doors deadened to suit a pair of 8 inchers. . By themselves running full range, they put out surprisingly decent bass but its nothing compared to having a dedicated sub for bass duties... but I guess that all depends on your musical tastes and how much exposure to bass you've had.
I'd keep away from the stock locations like the plague though... The front on the dash locations are just too close to the glass whilst the back locations are shocking as they don't even try to isolate the front of the speaker from the rear... so don't expect any bass frequencies there without a lot of work.
One more thing is try not to use the factory speaker wiring... the car is 23 years old and the wires will probably be brittle and might easily break.... making new wiring runs will prevent any wire troubles later down the track.
If you have the crappy stock 45Amp alternator and plan on building a big system.. I'd suggest a bigger alternator. It took about a month for me to fry that tiny one once I got the BIG amp in.
I managed to fit an 85amp bosch unit in the stock location with a little modification to the bracket and ditching the external regulator. But being an 18r-crap non crossflow engine there is plenty of heat down there due to the exhaust headers.... not a very alternator friendly area... I've been through a couple of regulators that have died methinks due to heat.....
That's all from me for now... any more q's feel free to give me a yell.
I thought of building parcel tray but the tray will have to cover huge area and I'd have nowhere to hinge the tray from without making a custom mounts... (Don't want that parcel tray to come flying at me when braking hard!!) Too much trouble for what it's worth IMO. What I had was that standard roll away cover that covered the boot.
I managed to shoehorn a hinged amp rack 3 amps and 2 sealed Solobaric 15's behind there , but had to ditch the cover. So there is plenty of space there if you just plan it out, without having to attack the spare tyre well. Security wise this was bretty bad coz you can easily see the lot. I guess I could have built a trim cover that attatched to the box to cover the lot but I never got around to that stage. I did have 20% tint on the car at the time and it was pretty hard to see in at night.
What I did for a front stage was attacked the kick panels. There is plenty of space behind the kick panels for 4in splits in their own fibreglass enclosure. I think a pair of 6.5inchers will fit in there without too much trouble either just depends on your glassing skills. I was planning on fitting 5 1/4in splits down there as my next upgrade before rational thinking got hold of me.
If you don't want a sub. I had fit a pair of IDQ 8's in the doors with a 18mm mdf spacer ring and by making a bigger speaker hole in the metal. The IDQ's have a pretty deep mounting depth so I reakon that most 8inchers will fit in the doors with a 18mm spacer and trimming to the metal speaker hole. The window just clears the magnet.
Just make sure you deaden the doors to the max and cover the access holes. What will probably piss you off the most is rattling door linkages... which I never really did get totally rid of.
Definitely try and secure the pod/spacer ring to the door metal. Mounting the pods just to the door trim did not cut it for me especially with the 8's. What you want is to totally separate the front of the speaker from the back as much as you can. Any leaks will kill your midbass/bass.
I got decent output from them 8's in the doors when I had the sub box out, corssing them over to play 200Hz and down while the 4inchers played 200Hz and up. Don't expect deep bass from them though.
Another place I spied for possible sub locations was where the rear passenger seats armrests are. I think there is a cavity behind the trim panels to build fibreglass enclosures into. Enough methinks for 8 inchers to go there. I never got to explore that option though so It might be worth a try.
Other than that you can look to the glovebox to fit a small fibreglass enclosure there..
Anyways back to your question I currently have a set of 6.5in splits in the doors deadened to suit a pair of 8 inchers. . By themselves running full range, they put out surprisingly decent bass but its nothing compared to having a dedicated sub for bass duties... but I guess that all depends on your musical tastes and how much exposure to bass you've had.
I'd keep away from the stock locations like the plague though... The front on the dash locations are just too close to the glass whilst the back locations are shocking as they don't even try to isolate the front of the speaker from the rear... so don't expect any bass frequencies there without a lot of work.
One more thing is try not to use the factory speaker wiring... the car is 23 years old and the wires will probably be brittle and might easily break.... making new wiring runs will prevent any wire troubles later down the track.
If you have the crappy stock 45Amp alternator and plan on building a big system.. I'd suggest a bigger alternator. It took about a month for me to fry that tiny one once I got the BIG amp in.
I managed to fit an 85amp bosch unit in the stock location with a little modification to the bracket and ditching the external regulator. But being an 18r-crap non crossflow engine there is plenty of heat down there due to the exhaust headers.... not a very alternator friendly area... I've been through a couple of regulators that have died methinks due to heat.....
That's all from me for now... any more q's feel free to give me a yell.
#6
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Posted 24 December 2003 - 01:10 PM
Thanks for the replies dudes.
Im wondering if you have any pics at all of your celica with the stereo inside? If not no worries.
You mentioned kick panels, i didnt think the celica would have enough room next to the accelerator pedal??? Im guessing you took out that plasic electrical cover next to it out, and put them in there.
I considered making parcel shelfs etc but it just didnt seem to come out right. Getting one of those roll out covers that the station wagons use is a great idea imo cause it also doesent stop as much bass from a sub comming up to where you sit, because of it not being a solid material.
The ass who owned the car before me had 6" kenwoods mounted on the vinal doorskin, so now i have a 6" gaping hole in me door. I was planning on building pods for a pair of Hertz HSK165's, then heading off the wreckers and taking off the vinal for the backseat armrests of another car, and covering the pods in that, therefore it gives a major stock look.
What do you guys think of the Hertz in the doors, then putting a 4" coax down into the kick panel? yay or nay?
You can see my car at...
http://www.boostcruising.com/forums/index....=6&entryID=1499
if you wanna take a look. But yeah it would be great if i get stuck knowing that u have done it all before, thanks heaps.
Im wondering if you have any pics at all of your celica with the stereo inside? If not no worries.
You mentioned kick panels, i didnt think the celica would have enough room next to the accelerator pedal??? Im guessing you took out that plasic electrical cover next to it out, and put them in there.
I considered making parcel shelfs etc but it just didnt seem to come out right. Getting one of those roll out covers that the station wagons use is a great idea imo cause it also doesent stop as much bass from a sub comming up to where you sit, because of it not being a solid material.
The ass who owned the car before me had 6" kenwoods mounted on the vinal doorskin, so now i have a 6" gaping hole in me door. I was planning on building pods for a pair of Hertz HSK165's, then heading off the wreckers and taking off the vinal for the backseat armrests of another car, and covering the pods in that, therefore it gives a major stock look.
What do you guys think of the Hertz in the doors, then putting a 4" coax down into the kick panel? yay or nay?
You can see my car at...
http://www.boostcruising.com/forums/index....=6&entryID=1499
if you wanna take a look. But yeah it would be great if i get stuck knowing that u have done it all before, thanks heaps.
#7
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Posted 24 December 2003 - 05:52 PM
Holy fuxor batman... Same colour and shape to my car as well.. but just in 300% better condition!!
Mine has a problem with rust now which totally put me off it. Any 18RG or 1GGTE plans for the car? I'd love to see that! Looks like you have extractors on it as well... how hard was that to fit. I have a Weber 32/36 carb on mine but am having problems with tuning it... I think the carby is not 100% and needs a proper rebuild.... but thinking again I cant be stuffed anymore... it seems like now everytime I fix something some other thing goes wrong!! Anyways just PM me car info to keep them mechanical details out of the car audio board
So back to Audio...
I made these sealed Kick panel fibreglass enclosures that totally replaced the plastic panels on each side. At the time it was my first attempt at fibreglass... so professional looking no.... did the job yes.
I did try just mounting the splits on the plastic trim itself but that setup sounded extremely **** so don't even think about butchering those panels just to mount the speakers on.... the sealed enclosures did wonders for its output and power handling.
Because it was my first attempt at the kicks the pods were bigger than they should have been and got in the way of my foot at times.... but I'm definite that fitting 4inchers in there and keeping close to the original lines of the kickpanel trim should be no problem as long as you make maximum use of the cavity behind them.
Take your time aiming the speakers in the kicks properly as well... I'd definitely try the wreckers for new door trims while you are there as well as for the roll out cover.
If you can't find trims and have the time. Try and make totally new ones... the trims are flat as a pancake anyway and the original trim is pretty flimsy. The only problem I could think about in making new door trims was the problem of mounting them to the door properly.. and not with the crappy standard clips of the original trims... Methinks some sort of screws or bolts would do the trick around the edges of the trim maybe??
What I had before were 4inchers in the kicks and 8's in the doors and to me sounded pretty good...
So your proposed setup installed nicely should do well.
If I were doing it again I'd be fitting 5 1/4in splits in the kicks and 8 inchers in the doors. Reason being that the 5 1/4in speakers would be able to play a little lower with more authority enabling me to lowpass the midbass (8inchers) a little lower to improve imaging.
Just realised in your pics the 6inchers are mounted quite higher than mine. I mounted my speakers closer to the bottom front corner of the door.... just a more imaging friendly position and puts the speakers closer to the kicks and more forward of the car.
I'll try and dig up some pics I had before to show you how I butchered my car for audio !
Cheers Mate!!
Mine has a problem with rust now which totally put me off it. Any 18RG or 1GGTE plans for the car? I'd love to see that! Looks like you have extractors on it as well... how hard was that to fit. I have a Weber 32/36 carb on mine but am having problems with tuning it... I think the carby is not 100% and needs a proper rebuild.... but thinking again I cant be stuffed anymore... it seems like now everytime I fix something some other thing goes wrong!! Anyways just PM me car info to keep them mechanical details out of the car audio board
So back to Audio...
I made these sealed Kick panel fibreglass enclosures that totally replaced the plastic panels on each side. At the time it was my first attempt at fibreglass... so professional looking no.... did the job yes.
I did try just mounting the splits on the plastic trim itself but that setup sounded extremely **** so don't even think about butchering those panels just to mount the speakers on.... the sealed enclosures did wonders for its output and power handling.
Because it was my first attempt at the kicks the pods were bigger than they should have been and got in the way of my foot at times.... but I'm definite that fitting 4inchers in there and keeping close to the original lines of the kickpanel trim should be no problem as long as you make maximum use of the cavity behind them.
Take your time aiming the speakers in the kicks properly as well... I'd definitely try the wreckers for new door trims while you are there as well as for the roll out cover.
If you can't find trims and have the time. Try and make totally new ones... the trims are flat as a pancake anyway and the original trim is pretty flimsy. The only problem I could think about in making new door trims was the problem of mounting them to the door properly.. and not with the crappy standard clips of the original trims... Methinks some sort of screws or bolts would do the trick around the edges of the trim maybe??
What I had before were 4inchers in the kicks and 8's in the doors and to me sounded pretty good...
So your proposed setup installed nicely should do well.
If I were doing it again I'd be fitting 5 1/4in splits in the kicks and 8 inchers in the doors. Reason being that the 5 1/4in speakers would be able to play a little lower with more authority enabling me to lowpass the midbass (8inchers) a little lower to improve imaging.
Just realised in your pics the 6inchers are mounted quite higher than mine. I mounted my speakers closer to the bottom front corner of the door.... just a more imaging friendly position and puts the speakers closer to the kicks and more forward of the car.
I'll try and dig up some pics I had before to show you how I butchered my car for audio !
Cheers Mate!!
#8
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Posted 26 December 2003 - 11:33 AM
I PMed you buddy, but forgot to mention, How much was the 8"? and did you run like splits in the kicks and run the 8 as a sub?
EDIT: Extractors were very easy to fit. I got em from the wreckers for 60 bucks. They are "Lukey" Brand too.
[ December 26, 2003, 10:06: Message edited by: silly ]
EDIT: Extractors were very easy to fit. I got em from the wreckers for 60 bucks. They are "Lukey" Brand too.
[ December 26, 2003, 10:06: Message edited by: silly ]
#9 Guest_E_*
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Posted 12 January 2004 - 12:21 AM
Hey silly. You could run easily run a 12" or even 15" without it being visible to the average thief, just re-tint your rear boot...it wouldn't cost more than a couple hundred dollars and it's certainly better then no sub at all.
#10
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Posted 12 January 2004 - 09:04 AM
Who you calling silly!
lol jk..
Yeah i know mate, i acctually have extremely dark tint on there at the moment, its probably illegal. But you can still see inside fairly easy, but yeah your right in what your saying. At the moment i am tossing up what type of system to get and the money i have to spend. Like whether to just get splits, get splits and sub running off a 4 channel, get splits and sub running from 2 amps, get new Head Unit... list goes on and on....
Deano
lol jk..
Yeah i know mate, i acctually have extremely dark tint on there at the moment, its probably illegal. But you can still see inside fairly easy, but yeah your right in what your saying. At the moment i am tossing up what type of system to get and the money i have to spend. Like whether to just get splits, get splits and sub running off a 4 channel, get splits and sub running from 2 amps, get new Head Unit... list goes on and on....
Deano
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