26 replies to this topic

[BlackRain]

Xristo said:

correct me if im wrong but the MRP amps from alpine are the non v12 amps right?

That's correct, they're not from the V12 range...but I dont think anybody is talking about MRPs here.

[BlackRain]

[edit] whoops..double post.

[HISPL]

The deck has no speaker level output, so unfortuiantly he cant run the rears off of the deck.
The US Amps 2000x was just an example.
Those alpine mono amps would be worth what around $800 AUD???

I would choose something like a Caliber for the same money and get almost double the power to the Type Rs.

This would give you the potential to get more output from it or leave a heap in reserve for everyday listening. (If you like to listen to quiet music! LOL)

Why would you not but the most power for the money???

The only other thing I can think that would make a difference is build quality and from what I've been told by a local repair tech in WA the Alpine is just average on this one.

(In my opinion build quality also includes noise rejection measures to eliminate engine noise)
The only other reason I can think of is w@nk factor.

Nobody has passed Richard Clarkes amplifier challenge and been able to pick certain amps from a blind test, so nobody can say they can tell the difference by listening to them.

I'm sure there is a market for people who want all Alpine systems and want to use their amps for the sheer fact that it will cosmetically match the rest of the system, but in sheer listening terms no one could tell the differance.

But at the end of the day RS25WA is not changing the amp so it really doesn't matter.

[BlackRain]

Because in my opinion, sound quality is not about 'how much power you can get for the money'.

That's the equivalent of saying, for a given budget you would buy a car with the biggest engine and the highest power figures. But then again, there's no shortage of people who think their V8's rule the road.

I picked my MRD-M500 up for $460AUD brand new (and no it wasn't thru connections or any illegal activity). If there is much better out there to be had for the money then I'd like to know about it cos obviously I'm looking in the wrong places.

Funny though how the MRD-M1000 won the Sound and Image award for best subwoofer amp 2003 though isn't it...I mean, as if they'd know what they're talking about huh?...

[HISPL]

Well $460 is a good price.
A little under $1 per watt.

I'm not of the opinion that sound quality is buying amp power for the least possible money either.

It is just that you can then put that money to better use where it counts most. Good installation and better speakers.

Having more than enough power for what you need is called headroom.
This is very important, having headroom means that you amp is not busting its balls to make the power you require to make it sound good.

I'm not saying that the Alpine gear is bad at all.
Really the features they have are pretty handy.
But when it comes down to making a sub sound good I think there are three things that are important.

Installation- The right box makes all the difference. not to mention orientation in the car which may improve cabin gain.

Power- This really does not need to be explained, you need plenty of power.

Equalisation- This is least important as you don't really need it if you install and power it right in the first place.

I know the Alpine has plenty of equalisation features but in my opinion it does not have enough power to leave headroom running two type R subs.
I'm not talking SPL levels of power, for this you would need two MRD1000 amps per sub or the equiv.

I would suggest that the Sound and Image award the Alpine won was because it was the most idiot proof. (And no I'm not calling you an idiot)

If you have built the rest of the system properly you don't need to know how much current the amp is drawing coz you would have an addequate power supply system (batts and alts etc)
And yes I know the display does more than just this.

I'm absolutly positive that there are many different sub woofer amps that sound just as good as the Alpine and I'm sure the LCD display makes no diffence to the sound quality.

I'm of the opinion that power is more important than the diagnostic features on the amp. The Diagnostics are a great feature to have making it easier to set up or troubleshoot but nonetheless not as important in making it sound as good as what the power is.

Anyway what is your opinion of sound quality???

[BlackRain]

My opinion of sound quality?

No doubt correct wiring and a proper setup are underestimated by most people. Thru my experiences, I've realised that a good install, especially proper sound deadening can make the world of difference to a setup. So provided you have at least some 'decent' gear, the install will make or break your system.

Second thing, I agree with you on the headroom. My splits are rated at 70wrms, but I'm giving them about 120wrms. Sub is rated 400wrms, but its getting about 550wrms - accounting for Alpine's birthsheets at 14.4V, and my car's real driving voltage of 14.0V according to the turbo timer.

However for every day listening, I think there's only so much headroom you would need. I think giving my 400wrms sub a 1000W+ monoblock might be just a bit more than I'd ever need. I'm sure it would take it happily and beg for more, but I don't think my ears or my car would be very thankful for it.

The final opinion, sound quality has to sound good to the listener. So if it sounds good to me, it's quality, regardless of what other people think.

Sometimes, the diagnostic features and cosmetic appearance are what's goin to separate a couple of amps.

I think that some people (not pointing at anybody cos I honestly can't remember exactly who they are) are of the impression that if you're pure goal is sound quality, the system isn't allowed to look good. I've seen many comments that have written off certain gear because "they look good, so obviously the money wasn't spent on the sound".

But yeah that's about it for my 2c.

[HISPL]

Yes I know what you mean, things don't need to look ugly to sound good.

When you listen to systems with BIG power that is when you get the bug to have more and more and more.

There are a lot of people out there that have sets of compresion horns that run 500wrms per side.

Tunemans car has done really well at SQ comps considdering it has 8 10" subs and about 3kw running them.

I have run double the rated power into speaker b4 and not had any problems it is all about crossover settings and tuning this right.

A little Oscilloscope time make all the difference in the world.

Despite my Username I have only ever blown one pair of speakers and not one sub the whole time I've been doing this. (they had about double the rated power going to them)

I blew a pair of horns (Crossfire ELH-1) which were covered under warranty as they had problems with the glue holding the voice coil together in that model.

My view on soundquality is to have a wide soundstage compared to the width of the vehicle, enough height to make it realistic, excellent tonal ballance and enough power to have plenty of headroom at normal listening volumes.

My last install did 153db @ 33hz but I never listened to it at that volume whilst I was driving.
It was all about what I had in reserve and the quality of the sound at those daily listening volumes.

I'm someone who loves listening to vocalists (Sad fact is I love eighties music for this very reason!) and instrumentals.

Yeah I like to street bump to some Hip Hop or Rap but I prefer to LISTEN to something else.
(The bass in Hip Hop and Rap is something I like to feel, not listen to. I do like listening to the story telling in the music)

And yes I agree with your quote that if it sounds good to me that is all that matters.

Just remember to keep listening to other systems to gain perspective.

Sometimes perspective is lost when you only listen to your own system every day.

I try to listen to every customers car that we do at work if I believe it is worthwhile. (I don't bother with it if it is only a deck replacing the factory one)

That is my view on sound quality.

[RS25WA]

thx for the discussion guys, went a bit off topic for abit there but its all good.
gonna go the biamp route, 160wrms to my splits rated @ 130wrms should gimme a slight bit of headroom while keeping costs to absolutely zero cos i already have the amp!
frm what i gather, biamping would be giving each channel its own input, but does that mean the tweeters get the same amt of power as the woofer? or is it just watever sounds good?
will probably need a small amp just for rearfill.

[HISPL]

Yes they would get the same sort of power.

you may want to adjust the tweeter antenuation if you are able to on the crossover.

This is the better option as you will have less distortion than if you were to bridge it.
(not that you would probably hear it)

[RS25WA]

*UPDATE*
I've just received a really good offer for a T420 alpine V12 amp (110wrms x 2).
Would it be a good idea to put 2 channels frm the F540 into the rears...and then use the other 2 for the tweeters and use the T420 for the woofers? so that would give me 110wrms to the woofer, 80wrms to the tweeter and 80wrms to the DKC213 rears.
ideas anyone? opinions? would the difference in power between the tweeter and woofer cause any problems?
would the MB Quarts handle that kinda power?

[HISPL]

I wouldn't think it would make a huge difference.
Yes the Quarts will handle it no worries.
Just have 0 gain on the amps and be carefull with the volume control.

[RS25WA]

wouldnt make a huge difference between 80wrms and 110 wrms to the woofer? just that id like to keep all the amps frm the V12 series,and since i can get the T420 now cheaper than a T320 which is rated at 80wrms, thought i might go for it.