289 replies to this topic

[fuddbutter]

ok this is for all the ppl who tell me they can hear a difference in cables...


what is there in the construction that makes them sound different,
how does electricity running throuh Copper make something sound different. what do they do to the copper to make it soud different.

how can someone engeneer a pice of metal to recognise cirtain frequancys in music and change them to make it sound better???

i want HARD PROOF ppl!


let the fun begin

[audioquest]

Actually good cable doesn't make the sound better at all. A good pcs of cable will transmitt from A to B in min loses and thats how it works. Many people had mistaken for that. Actually what it being recorded in there, the cable must be able to carry it through with min loses. Poor cable will lose most of it during transmittion. What I mean is those fine details in each frequancys. Material and construction in cable are most important. And there is many grade of copper or silver.

[STIK79]

a moderator starting a flame war

Of course there's differences between cables (ie resistance/capacitance/inductance conductor arrangement etc) however the general conjecture of "scientists/engineers"* is that these differences between two reasonably specified cables is so minute as to be inaudible (i've posted some excellent links before so search ) and when the differences are clearly visible this occurs well outside the audible specturm (queue 1 marketing gimick called skin effect).

I don't think you'll find too many FACTS being thrown up by pro cabellists becuase these are based on feelings or memories rather than scientific measurements

*in general except for the stupid ones j/k

[Blackrazor]

Before i chuck in my tuppence, let me relate you a story. This happened just a week ago, last Thursday.

I'm good mates with a guy in Nelson here called Francis Hong. He runs the only chinese restaurant here that actual makes authentic chinese and not sell-out westernised food, and ever since i went to Hong Kong i cant stand westernised chinese food. Anyway, since i go there for lunch all the time (Szecheun BBQ Pork Soup, mmmm) i meet a lot of his mates who call by, it seems to be the hub for all the local chinese older guys.

One of them is called Sonny, and he came by one day and he asked me if i sold banana plugs, and i said sure... he gave me the speaker cable he wanted to attach the banana plugs to. Now before i tell you how much it cost him, let me tell you what it was made of.

This 'speaker cable' was quite clearly made from two different coloured peices of 8AWG power wire, about 4m long, that had been laid next to each other, and heat shrunk with blue heatshrink encasing them. That was it. Nothing uber fancy. I could make one identical for probably $18.

Now why i mention that, is because he bought this from a local 'high end' hifi shop who shall remain nameless. They had made it up to order for him. He had been told in no uncertain terms that these wonder cables would make his bass more dynamic and lead to a nice increase in overall musicality. And the price? $1400. Fourteen f*cking Hundred! For a couple of bits of 8AWG wire and some heatshrink! :shock: And this poor guy had taken the salesman's advice and dropped the cash on a cable that the guy had whipped up in probably 5 minutes in his spare time. $1400!!! I was almost spewing, i couldnt beleive it... :evil:

Now to my point : These arguments always end up with us being able to scientifically prove that there is no way the physical differences of well built cables are enough to cause a big enough change to the sound to cause the ear to hear it. Then the 'audiophiles' always maintain that they can hear a difference, so damn the science, damn the evidence, because their ears are the most sensitive measuring devices known to mankind, or quite probably any other species in the universe... i dont know why Cape Canaveral doesnt hire a couple hundred audiophiles and ditch the radar scopes, with ears that obviously can sense things that $300,000 measuring equipment cant i bet they would have found signs of extraterrestrial life decades ago.

But i digress. I dont care one hoot if some 'audiophile' wants to spend the GDP of a small african country on his speaker cables because he thinks some mojo-jojo construction makes the cable generate audio fairy dust : thats their prerogative, and their money, and they can do what they like, however ignorant or foolish it may be. But when innocent, ignorant consumers like Sonny get misled, nay, flat out conned into spending their hard earned money that the hifi guys KNOW arent worth a 50th of what they are selling them for, and literally lie thru their teeth about the benefits, i get really, really riled. I was honestly about 5 seconds away from taking Sonny and his cable to the dealer and seeing just how far we could insert his crap up where crap normally comes from :evil:

[audioquest]

Blackrazor what you have say may be a cheat to sonny. But in a real world, good cable does make a different. I mean really good cable, like tara lab, MIT or audioquest have a listen to them. I myself have own many pairs of top of the line interconnects. I won't be silly enough to buy good cables if I can't hear any different. $1,400 for 4 meter pair, in audiophile world that should be just aentry level. I have 1 pair of interconnect in 1 meter pair and that cost me $3000.00. To be frank, no hard feeling, have a good listen to those cable, they are always more musical. As I have mention before They don't improve your sound system at all. All they do is to get from A to B point in min loses. That is where your system repond to a more complete fine details in each frequancys, in that way you will have a more complete respond from what is actually being recorded.

[bob]

I'd hate to have ears like some of you guys do. To not be able to enjoy music without spending all this money on cabling, etc. Sometimes things go too far IMO. Enjoy music for what it is.


Edit - lol I shouldn't be posting something like that in an SQ forum eh

[Blackrazor]

Audioquest : Have you ever heard of psychoacoustics? If so, i'd do some real, REAL hard research into it, and save yourself a packet load.

BD's question still stands : What supposedly makes a cable 'sound better' (or affect the signal in an audibly lesser manner than any other well built cable for instance)? I have to this date never seen anyone, even the manufacturers themselves, come up with any concept that hasnt been immediately shot down in flames... on the other hand, i've seen page after page after page of bullcrape marketing claims from those same high end manufacturers you talk about, that any idiot with even the most rudimentary of electrical understanding can see is a load of bollocks.

Case in point : cable directionality. Why the heck should i buy a cable that is directional and therefore would rectify any AC signal (such as say, oh, transmitted music) that went through them??? Thats not rocket science, you learn that stuff in Electronics 101! Do MIT, Tara Labs and Audioquest market directional cables as being a good thing? Yessir, they do. Is cable directionality provable by even the most dropout electronics student to be a load of bollocks? Yes is is.

Again, the question remains : What makes a cable sound better? What physical aspects make it provide an audibly cleaner path to the signal? And if its an 'unmeasurable' quality, how the heck do they know how to design them? Guesswork? :roll:

[Blackrazor]

bob^ said:

ears like some of you guys do

Ears slash gullibility slash stubborness :hehe:

BTW on another note, have a read of this : http://www.avrev.com/news/0904/13.tara.html

Tara Labs got their ass busted when Customs raided their asses for selling their cables as 'handcrafted in the USA' when in actual fact they were being made on a machine system in China :roll:

[bob]

either way, its a combination of lots of things, but I'd hate to need to justify spending all this money on components and cables in particular, to be able to enjoy the music.

[audioquest]

I dont mean to be rude, Blackrazor I think you had read too much, but please listen to them, not by just reading it on papers. I belive I enjoy music like you do, but at a different level. My point still stand, it doesn't make any improvement to the original signal. All they do is to get from A to B point with min loses with more complete fine details on each frequancys in the signal. I listen to them not base on reading on them.

[audioquest]

sorry talk to you later guys, going for my show alien vs prediator.

[Marlin]

audioquest said:

Actually good cable doesn't make the sound better at all. A good pcs of cable will transmitt from A to B in min loses and thats how it works.  Many people had mistaken for that. Actually what it being recorded in there, the cable must be able to carry it through with min loses. Poor cable will lose most of it during transmittion. What I mean is those fine details in each frequancys.  Material and construction in cable are most important.  And there is many grade of copper or silver.

Are there different grades of copper? It is one metal that it is possible to refine to over 99.995% (or whatever I can't remember the correct percentage) absolute purity as far as I know all copper undergos this process after smelting.

[anfs]

On a side note, in an issue of Australian Hi-Fi, a company believed that treble goes better through thin cable and bass better through thick cable. I can't remember the company name but this cable (for home use), was connected so it could be connected in twelve different ways!

[NUTTTR]

I'd like to see some evidence as to what actually makes it sound better....... thicker cables? Doubt it, higher purification of copper - unless you like listening to frequencies in the Gigahertz, then i doubt it...
They way they join the cabling to the plugs? Possible, if it was compared with an exceptionally crap one then maybe... i've never heard the difference and i've tried a lot of cabling, made my own, etc, the only time it sounded bad was with interference or bad solder...
Aaron

[golf_bht]

I totally agree with audioquest that cable doesn't make your system a better system but it help to get the most your system is capable of doing.

Well,are cable just cable??? nop, not that I know of. cable are made of metal insulated in some insulative material. Then the matel will transmit the electron from point A to point B.insulaters will keep them from short cercuit. well yes but that is not all the story.

Different material dave their own distinct charactoristic. which will then determine by their Inductant Capacitant and resistant. and that alone make a huge diffirent.

To fully understand the different between good stuff and cheap sh*t you will need to understand and apriciate the process of making good cable. good cables are morethan just dumb luck that can't be proven. instead every thing can be proove both sonically and scientifically. Who say those can't be proven??

Firstly we will have to start from ore extraction. How Pure can the material be at the starting point? different Grade of matel are determine by purity of the material. What does purity of material mean to audio signal transmition you may ask??????? Say copper is a good conductive material but when mixed with the not so good one like tin or lead the electron flow eill get jam up. it will increase the over all resistant of the cable.

the next one is grain with in the piece of metal. coper is coper then how does the same purity of coper sound different? Inorder fro electron to travel from point A to point B it will have to go through the conductor which in this copper for example. Say big grain VS normal grain material how does it make different? take your car for example . would your car drive smother on a asphalt road or concrete road? The different grain size will have the same effect on electron flow. Sau matel A have 50 grain per square millimeter and metal B have 10 grain persquare millimeters. to travel to the same distant, electron travell through matel A will have to pass thrugh 50 obstrucle between grains while electron passing thrugh metal B will have to go thrugh just 10 obstrucle. Electron travell thrugh metal A will arrived at the destenation tired and exhosted while electron passing thrugh metal B will arrived in good shape.
This can be easily proven in any lab with electron microscope.

Since the metal arrive that the cable manufacturer in big lump of what ever material it is. the process of making them a small wires will makeeffect to the material grain formation. If the Formation on their road say >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then Which way should the electron go. electron aren't stupid, they can apirciate the right way that will make their life easier. This again can be proven in a lab with electron microspe.

here come to the last bit ---> the insulation. well their job is basically pervent short cercuit. it should have nothing to do with electron flow at all you may think. Wrong wrong wrong. it is one if the most important part in the cable equation. different material when interact with the conductors will have its own distinct charactors. ingeneral this will absob energy and later release the dirty energy stored in it with the signal flow. this will resulted in un leveled sound. in general good insulation should have minimal interfereant to the signal flow. this can be proven with a good L/C meter.

Weather cable have effect on sound or not will have to let you here for yourself. I have been designing my own cable after owning many if them some are expensive enough to buy a complete car audio system. I use lots science in my design So unless you have enough scientific to back your self up don't try to show other people that your ears are stupid. Phycho acustic alone is not enough for explanation of all your points. a lot of people have better ears than yours which will be able to pickup the different in the blind test. Your ears can be trained to be that good too but it will take you some time