61 replies to this topic

[fuddbutter]

Me again



There is alot of talk out there about old skool car audio brands that have changed hands in the past few years and know alot of people out there seem to think the new gear is "crap" but why??



Im yet to meet anyone that has physically tested and older version against a newer version.



People are quick to say they don’t use as good gear cause there not made in (insert country here) and now made in (insert cheep labour country here)



Brands like Soundstreem, PPI, Rockfordfosgate. I hear it all the time and most of the time from people that really wouldn’t have a clue about where there made or how they are made.



Also seam’s there are double standard's for company's from the USA that make there gear in china/tiawan/japan compared to companies that come from Asia and get there gear made there (Alpine/Pioneer/Clarion etc)



Anyway what are your thoughts?

[jamesyboi]

Amps i like Orion , PPI , Alpine , Clarion
Speakers - Boston Acousitcs , Canton , Mb Quart
Subwoofers - JBL GTi 1500 15inch subwoofers (ever heard 1 of these in a 4.5 cubic foot box ? in the right car offcourse , even with little power they're unreal .. ahead of thier time).

[fuddbutter]

jamesyboi said:

Amps i like Orion , PPI , Alpine , Clarion
Speakers - Boston Acousitcs , Canton , Mb Quart
Subwoofers - JBL GTi 1500 15inch subwoofers (ever heard 1 of these in a 4.5 cubic foot box ? in the right car offcourse , even with little power they're unreal .. ahead of thier time).

i think you might wanna re-read the original post, i wasent asking what gear you liked.

[roughcactus]

Bobby_Digital said:

Me again



There is alot of talk out there about old skool car audio brands that have changed hands in the past few years and know alot of people out there seem to think the new gear is "crap" but why??



Im yet to meet anyone that has physically tested and older version against a newer version.



People are quick to say they don’t use as good gear cause there not made in (insert country here) and now made in (insert cheep labour country here)



Brands like Soundstreem, PPI, Rockfordfosgate. I hear it all the time and most of the time from people that really wouldn’t have a clue about where there made or how they are made.



Also seam’s there are double standard's for company's from the USA that make there gear in china/tiawan/japan compared to companies that come from Asia and get there gear made there (Alpine/Pioneer/Clarion etc)



Anyway what are your thoughts?

...simple really: The "internet car audio guru" reads about it on the net somewhere and somebodys experience becomes FACT, it's then posted on numerous forums and snowballs from there...SOME brands have had issues with newer product and some have not...

I think many people crave exclusivity when they buy product...they shun the more established brands so they can show off their rare 48 bit Burr Brown DAC, 25 Volt, Platinum plated RCA output deck to their mates...I mean hell if it's pretty rare and it's ot all these great features it's gotta be better right!!!

Too bad most people who buy this stuff are tone deaf, have a half arsed install with speakers wired out of phase and a subbox which is a half arsed pre fab job...but hell that $2000 deck will make your $299 splits sound AWESOME...lol

Cheers,

[Damon]

Very interseting post Bobby_D.

I have had the benefit of having used and reviewed 'old skool' gear rather extensively. As have I had the good fortune to review and use gear throughout the evolutionary perdio of the past ten or so years throughout the 'halycon period' of car audio development. During that time I have travelled the world to visit overseas car audio companies and thier factories, and have enjoyed every minute of seeing this wonderful industry grow and evolve through trends of buyer demand and technical innovation.

In my humble opinion there have been some very critical products that have been released over the years. Back in 1998 Craig Parker (co-editor of Car Stereo Australia magazine) and I produced a fun editorial story that highlighted what we belived were the most influential car audio products ever released. What was most important about these products is that they helped better the enjoyment of car audio in some signifcant way, and helped many people.

I have been toying with the idea of rehashing the story for the new millenium, and to look at what gear in the past half a decade has been equally influential. And why.

In regards comparing old skool to new skool? Well, to do that we have to consider the 'N' word - which is nostalgia. Is a new Rockford amp better or worse than an old one? Are Kenwood's latest 7x10s better than JBL Decades? Is a Clarion HXD2 better than an Alpine 7909? Well, all these new products have the benfit of far greater advances in computer design and manufacturing technology, so in some cases I say that things have NOT progressed one iota.

For instance, there is no reason I can understand why a pair of speakers or a subwoofer should sound bad these days. Yet some still sound woeful.

Similarly, these is no reason why an amplifier should not feature 12dB per octave or steeper high and low pass filters for all channels. Again, head units should not have less than 1VRMS of pre-out voltage. When I tested or measured these things during reviews in the '90s there was always a variance in performance, making it easy to decide which was better.

Today your average entry level amplifier makes more power and has more features than a top of the range American amp did in the '90s. That's progress. But I think that small Asian manufacturers have learned how to emmulate simple electronics like amplifiers, while mastering the art of innovations, and understanding what makes a speaker sound good - are still elusive skills that have yet to master.

Also, back in the '90s the American brands not only made more power and had smarter/better features than their Asian counterparts, but their marketing made the prestige of owning one very desireable. Not only has the marketing of USA amps fallen by the wayside but they no longer make more power or have smarter/better features. So, why pay more for one?

[Tiger]

Well, I like my ol skool Kicker Impulse Splits
My 2 cents worth! And free post!

As you were gentlemen...

[daz07]

and I love my first gen V12 alpine's

[APS]

Well everyone that knows me can you tell you that i am probably the biggest fan of Soundstream Technologies. Always have been and always will be.

I had the old school Soundstream amps and subs in my car for a number of years, and when i compared them to the latest release i can still tell that its Soundstream over again. Maybe they have gone to Asia for their PCB's and components but these are manufactured to Soundstreams specifications as their head engineer Karl Cummings is still on board. Personally i would take a computer and hand robot put together PCB then a hand made one any day of the week. Why you ask? Well simple, because a robot is precise and computer controlled and doesnt make mistakes, whereas a hand does.

I had the pleasure of seeing their latest range of VAN GOGH amplifiers internals and i dont think i have ever seen a better laid out set of components, there wasnt a thing out of place.

I mean yes they may have problems with a certain batch of amps or subs, but they will iron out the bugs and release a new range thats even better than the first one. Noone remembers that Soundstream's USA range of amps were very weak and prone to failure and this is back in the old days. After they pulled the range they came out with the new Rubicon range and those amps to this day are bulletproof, i still have one and it has been running at 2 ohm bridged for 7 years, and there has been a numerous times where the battery clamps were reversed and all that would blow was the internal fuses, change them over and the thing is stil pounding away.

I dont follow the sheepwagon like the rest of the sheep. I make up my own mind, i try the stuff out and make my own conclusions as to whether the products are good or not.

Look at my sig, Soundstream DA VINCI sub, PPI Powerclass amp, all after the companies went to Asia, but i aint complaining.

[heimerich]

I am very much agree with your opinion. I have tested some amplifiers such as
1. Soundstream Davinci
2. Soundstream Picasso
3. Audison VR vs Audison VRx (not the EX series)
4. Concept amplifiers
5. ARC CXL vs ARC XXK (the newer version)
many more...

I think they are trying to cut their production cost by putting lower grade components into the system BUT selling them with big $$$$ to increase their profit. Such as the Audison VRx series can't be compared with the old VR series. The only way to compare VR is to get the VRx EX series (chrome) which have a better components that the normal (blue color) VRx.

HOWEVER, with the rockford fosgate, for some reason the newer version of their subwoofers and amplifiers are ROCK. Much better than the olders series.

In addition, i wouldn't mind with those USA brands but made in china or taiwan or korea as long as they are designed, tested and have a strong quality control in their overseas factories.

[Pulse-R]

I like my old stuff, especially with the new bits to improve certain areas

[APS]

Read my post just because they go to Asia doesnt mean they are cheaper components. They go there because the Asian factories are very well equiped and have computer controlled equipment. The components and PCB's are precision mounted and then shipped over to USA to be put together. Generally the quality control is of high standard, I have seen an Asian built Soundstream amp. It's awesome, sound wise and build wise.

[Redlined]

to be off topic...is it the script inside daz's sig that says my username or is he making a personal attack at me saying i got a small flacid man meat?

don't worry...just read in another thread, daz that #$@!

[Blackrazor]

It says the username of whoever is looking at it

[Marc ♫]

I don't know.... I think Damon summed it up quite nicely.

But... I still think the only reason for shifting manufacturing to asia for any company would primarily be cost reduction.

[Damon]

Yet while manufacturing for for a large percentage of USA brands (and Japanese & Erupoean brands for that matter) has moved into Korea, India, Taiwan, Singapore and China, would you believe that the gear is ofetn sent to America THEN shipped to Australia? In this way it is subject to extra shipping, insurance, handling, storage, taxes and duties it need not be. Granted some of the larger companies can arrange dedicated distribution centre in South East Asia, but not all can. This helps some ways to explain how some USA brands can sell a $109RRP woofer in Australia, whereas other brands which have a similarly priced woofer on home soil charge $149 or more for the same woofer in Oz.

This variance in price, and also the fact that new gear takes some time to reach Australia after it is released elsewhere, is the price we pay for our solace down under.

Back on topic.

I don't know how many of you think about this but, having mentioned Australia and our isolation from the rest of the universe, do you wonder how this affects how gear has evolved over the years. Or more is the point; how it evolves with Australia's needs as a last priority - or not at all.

When, for example, was the last time you saw a head unit with the volume control on the right hand side of the face? Never, right? That's because the Yanks sit on the left side of the car, and so volume controls are designed for them. All this even though the Japanese, who design and build most of source units, sit on the right side of the car like we do.

What bugs me is that, with the advent of detachable face, there is simply NO reason not to engineer a reversed front panel that allowed RHD nations to have a volume close to the drive just like our LHD counterparts. This has bugged me for ages.

Also, have any of you compared how car audio equipment has evolved in comparison to home audio? Home guys pay thousands and thousands of dollars for single 12-inch subwoofers with low excursion, put in huge boxes, driven from amps making only a couple of hundred watts when fed with 240V - and can't get a thump in the chest to save their lives. We pay hundreds of dollars for 12-inch woofers with huge excursions, that suit tiny boxes, driven by amps making 500+ watts, with only 12V at hand, and we can't see straight from the vibration!

Woofer technology isn't the only area where car audio has made strides. The design of speakers to offer far wider dispersion rate to suit the higher offset listening position is another area where R&D dollars are spent on car audio moreso than home. How about the need for isolated electronics that have to cope with the increasingly 'noisey' electronic environments of modern cars? This is certainly something we take for granted, but I assure you that engine noise is less so of a problem today than it was five years ago. All the while cars become more advanced and harder to deal with. This is certainly one area of development we take for granted.

The constant improvement in efficiency of amplifiers is amazing. Six years ago an MTX Thunder 250x was $449 and made about 200WRMS total power and a small chassis. Today the same size chassis houses their RT251D which makes 280WRMS total power and retails for $300. Six years ago, until Earthquake released their ground breaking Class-D amplifier (sorry Infinity, your's wasn't grunty enough), I don't think you could buy a 1000WRMS amplifier that was under two feet long and drew less than 200-amps of current while costing less than $1500! Next year Jaycar will have one that's about the footprint of a car magazine and costs $399.

And where did the outboard crossover go guys? Or all the other black boxes like AudioControl EQLs and EQTs, analogue time alignment, in-dash 1/2 DIN pre-amps and Rockford Symmetry EPX2? I'll tell you where; now you can have all this stuff in a sub-$1000 CD tuner from any of a dozen manufacturers!