52 replies to this topic

[KungFucius]

I managed to put my Kicker SS56.2 Splits into my doors yesterday.

The sound stage seems to be rather low and slightly to the passenger side.

The speakers are currently mounted in Co-ax mode, mainly because, at the time, I didn't have the tools and things to put the tweets where I really want them.

Is there anything, apart from moving the tweets up, that I can do that will improve my sound stage?

[jaysin]

Let us know which car for a start, and I'm sure some of the experienced installers an give you detailed ideas.

Low and to the passenger side sounds quite familiar - left speaker is probably closer to hitting you in the ears than the right because it's closer to on-axis. Angling your tweeters should help to rectify this, but I'll leave it to the pros to advise how/where, pending the car model as well.

[ar3nbe]

Sounds to me like the main reason is that the left tweeter is more on axis, and therefore, louder to your ear. The problem with high tweeters is that there positioning cant NOT be fixed with TA. Our brains use the loudness of high frequencies for location. Whereas lower frequencies (midrange) are located by time.

If you dont belive me get someone who is running active to alter the TA on the tweeter chans, and I bet you will be hard pressed to hear a difference.

Therefor, the best way to fix tweeter issues is by positioning them correctly in the car, with similar axis position to each other.

[Chickita]

ar3nbe, on Oct 13 2007, 12:41 PM, said:

Sounds to me like the main reason is that the left tweeter is more on axis, and therefore, louder to your ear. The problem with high tweeters is that there positioning cant NOT be fixed with TA. Our brains use the loudness of high frequencies for location. Whereas lower frequencies (midrange) are located by time.

If you dont belive me get someone who is running active to alter the TA on the tweeter chans, and I bet you will be hard pressed to hear a difference.

Therefor, the best way to fix tweeter issues is by positioning them correctly in the car, with similar axis position to each other.

I've found that TA does work on tweeters. I have my tweeters in the dash firing at hte windscreen and I only us TA for them, no level changing to get the stage centred.

I have confirmed this also by only playing sound through the tweeters with a mono track and adjusting hte TA alone to get a centre image

*EDIT* BMWTurbo posted was logged on through GF's account

Edited by Chickita, 13 October 2007 - 01:16 PM.

[Louie]

Quote

I've found that TA does work on tweeters. I have my tweeters in the dash firing at hte windscreen and I only us TA for them, no level changing to get the stage centred.

I have confirmed this also by only playing sound through the tweeters with a mono track and adjusting hte TA alone to get a centre image

I'll second that, on mine that, TA plays a huge part on my tweets, and changing by even a few milliseconds makes a huge difference, wheras changing the mids doesn't make a huge noticable difference (on smaller adjustments).

[~thematt~]

Its all dependent on what frequencies your tweeter is playing.

Above ~3kHz, and the wavelength of sound is too small for each of your ears to differentiate the difference between. Your brain uses the differences in the phases of a wavelength between each ear, and their time difference, to localise the centre of the sound.

If the wavelength is too small, then your brain cant tell the difference in phases between two signals. It reverts to its Interaural Intensity Difference mode, which uses the intensity of the sound (loudness) to locate the centre. If two signal reach your ears at the same intensity, then the 'source' is directly in front of you.

Try and think of it as more of a frequency dependant issue, not a speaker dependant. If you're running 2-ways, you'll find the tweeter still responds to TA, because it is still playing ITD frequencies (crossovers arent brick wall filters, after all).

Also, since TA affects time of driver firing, this will also have an effect on reflections.

To change the centre of the stage, you'll need to start moving your midrange driver around more. To change the height without putting the tweeters up, you'll need to investigate a technique known as Digital Inverse Filtering, and EQ'ing around the frequencies affect by the Head Related Transfer points. Believe it or not, you can raise your stage simply by boosting and dropping specific frequencies for the tweeter.!!

[KungFucius]

Answer - '91 Daihatsu Feroza. No speakers in the doors off the factory line.

Question - What's TA?



And I am NOT moving the pods, they will not be moved unless being replaced.

And there's also a very noticeable difference between when I have the driver's window down or up. (I drive around with my windows down a lot.)

[Crusader]

T.A. is "Time Alignment" or sometimes called "Time Correction" and is usually found in more expensive head units that can run "active"

In a car the RH speaker is closer to you than the LH speaker (visa versa for the passenger) TA delays the signal from the speaker closest to you so all the sound reaches you at the same time. It is especially important for the sub if it's in the boot

By the way I drive around with the window down too but any sound stage is mostly lost

[Selfdestruktor]

KungFucius, on Oct 15 2007, 12:01 AM, said:

And there's also a very noticeable difference between when I have the driver's window down or up. (I drive around with my windows down a lot.)

Think about where your window is in relation to your speaker when the window is down

[KickerCat]

Quote

Sounds to me like the main reason is that the left tweeter is more on axis, and therefore, louder to your ear. The problem with high tweeters is that there positioning cant NOT be fixed with TA. Our brains use the loudness of high frequencies for location. Whereas lower frequencies (midrange) are located by time.

This is interesting - I've noticed that playing with tweet TA did little, but changing the volume (I can go -20dB to +20dB on tweets independant of mids) makes more of a difference. I'm going to try setting TA back to 0ish, and try adjusting with gain more than TA and see how I go

[KungFucius]

My H/U doesn't have TA, it's a Pioneer DEH - 5750.

And I think the the reason is definately the fact that the right tweeter is off axis, so I should try to make it louder to move my sound stage back towards the centre?

[KickerCat]

you could give it a go - sounds correct in theory or turn it slightly more on axis? just to test?

[KungFucius]

I can't turn the speaker upwards without a great deal of trouble, I had enough trouble just putting the thing in the pod and modifying the door to fit the damn thing in there. lol

[Crusader]

KungFucius, on Oct 15 2007, 12:55 PM, said:

I can't turn the speaker upwards without a great deal of trouble, I had enough trouble just putting the thing in the pod and modifying the door to fit the damn thing in there. lol

This is just the beginning I tell you!

In two years time you will have three head units, five amps, various speakers lying round your room and numerous install attempts under your belt. You can turn back now or do you want to continue?

Lots of Laughs!!!


Its a lot of hard work to get things right. I just wasted all of tonight trying to re-install my amps. I cut up sheets of MDF and drilled holes and all sorts of stuff only to realise in the end there's not enough space where I wanted to install them.

If you want better sound you will eventually say to yourself "I gotta do it" even if it means a lot of previous work goes down the drain

Good luck with your project mate!

[KungFucius]

Yes, I can somehow see myself with 3 cars one day.

My house, various ICE components strewn all through it.

And the messy workshop downstairs/in the garage.