17 replies to this topic

[audiomike]

Hi Gents,

I am planning to upgrade my existing system (front stage). Would like to run 2-way active. I have an existing amplifer for the existing splits (a/d/s 346cs) audison Lrx2.9. Will use this one for new midbass. Also on the market for another amp for the new tweeter. What things I need to concern before buying the new equipment? To run things active is this just a matter of setting the right cross-over point? What cross-over do I need? Planning to use eclipse CD7200 for source. Can I just rely on the crossover capability of this deck? Do I need to buy an amp with good crossover range? Also, what power do you guys recommend for tweeters only? Thanks in advance for help.

[Surefire]

audiomike, on Apr 25 2009, 02:59 PM, said:

Hi Gents,

I am planning to upgrade my existing system (front stage). Would like to run 2-way active. I have an existing amplifer for the existing splits (a/d/s 346cs) audison Lrx2.9. Will use this one for new midbass. Also on the market for another amp for the new tweeter. What things I need to concern before buying the new equipment? To run things active is this just a matter of setting the right cross-over point? What cross-over do I need? Planning to use eclipse CD7200 for source. Can I just rely on the crossover capability of this deck? Do I need to buy an amp with good crossover range? Also, what power do you guys recommend for tweeters only? Thanks in advance for help.

The Eclipse 7200 can control the system fine. Crossver points/slopes are part of it, yes, but to run 2 way active, then you need 4 channels of power to the 4 speakers. Do you need to buy an amp with good crossover range? Well it can help, but not entirely necessary, depends how much you want to spend to an extent also. I would imagine you would set the cross-over points via the 7200 rather than the amp.

When you say how much power for the tweeters, what 2 way splits are you looking at?

[audiomike]

Thanks for your reply. I am think of Hertz Mille tweeter (ML280) or scanspeak aircir. Midwoofer may be CDT or Hybrid Audio. Do you think 75W is enough for one tweeter? Thanks.

[Luke352]

audiomike, on Apr 26 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

Thanks for your reply. I am think of Hertz Mille tweeter (ML280) or scanspeak aircir. Midwoofer may be CDT or Hybrid Audio. Do you think 75W is enough for one tweeter? Thanks.

Yes 75w is plenty for a tweeter, way more then is needed really but the extra won't hurt so use it.

Don't worry about crossovers etc on your amp, if your using the 7200 all you need is an amp with gain control and thats it. But since most amps these days have some form of xover, bass boost, subsonic filter etc.. just make sure they are defeatable meaning that you can have it set for high pass, low pass or off, some amps don't give you the chose to be able to turn the filters off, which you want to be able to do.

As for xover point, that will really depend on your final driver choice and what xover point works best in your application, it's about trying things till you find what sounds best.

[audiomike]

Thanks for the advice guys. Much appreciated. Just another add-on question associated with crossover. What's the usual crossover points for midwoofer? Say for example if the HP for the tweeter is 3k does that mean the mid woofer would have to crossover point set around 3k?

[muzzy66]

audiomike, on Apr 26 2009, 12:51 AM, said:

Thanks for your reply. I am think of Hertz Mille tweeter (ML280) or scanspeak aircir. Midwoofer may be CDT or Hybrid Audio. Do you think 75W is enough for one tweeter? Thanks.

Yes, 75w should be plenty or the tweeter. I run my AirCirc tweeters off 45w each, and it's never felt inadequate.

Tweeters are typically quite sensitive, so they usually don't require quite as much power as mids to rech similar output.

audiomike, on Apr 26 2009, 06:38 AM, said:

Thanks for the advice guys. Much appreciated. Just another add-on question associated with crossover. What's the usual crossover points for midwoofer? Say for example if the HP for the tweeter is 3k does that mean the mid woofer would have to crossover point set around 3k?

I would suggest yes, typically, however it depends on the individual circumstances.

I wouldn't recommend a crossover point that high in most 2-way car setups though. If you're using a 6c5" or similar mid, and running off axis, it won't play high enough to bridge the gap. If you go with the AirCirc then you the ability to cross lower - 2.5khz (and even 2khz) is really no problem for the AirCirc.

You're typically better off with a lower crossover point where possible, if your tweeters can support it. Careful though, as a lot of them can't.

If you have limitations of a driver you want to make up for, then sometimes people like to overlap (for example) to try to offset for the weaknesses of one driver. Optimally you should try to just eliminate those limitations/gaps/peaks entirely, but sometimes it's not possible in the context of the system.

[audiomike]

How about if I go for Mille ML280 and Hybrid Technology L6 (7" driver). What do you recommend for crossover point for the tweeter and midwoofer? At this stage I prefer scanspeak aircirc but the size might be a problem for the dash. Will kick panel be idea for these tweeters mounting location?

[muzzy66]

Unfortunately I'm not particularly familliar with those two drivers, so I can't recommend a crossover point for them.

Perhaps RMAudio could point you in the right direction for the Hertz tweeters (as far as recommended crossover points) - not sure about the L7, who would be best to speak to.

The AirCirc is quite a large tweeter, and can make installs complicated. If you are particularly interested in the AirCirc, but are concerned about the size, then there is a small format version called the Illuminator (one with a small chamber, one with a larger one). I tend to refer to them as the "mini Aircirc", as they are basically an Aircirc without a small face plate, and without the fancy motor structure.

I'll probably be using either these or the Seas neo tweeters in my own system

[Pulse-R]

Crossover points are something best decided by listening.
All the paper and reading can't tell you how it will sound.

for example, I can use my Dynaudio MD100 tweeters down as low as 2.8kHz, but they sound terrible. 4kHz is the minimum 'good' frequency for these tweeters.

Also the 'slope' of the crossover filter will determine to some extent how low you can go.
A 4kHz, 12dB slope may be ok. so also a 3.2kHz, 24dB slope may give good results.

steeper slopes usually introduce more problems than they solve. it's more important to have tweeters which match 'tonally' or 'sonically' to the rest of the system.

As an example of this, my previous Morel tweeters are quite nice, but do not suit the 'tonality' of the Dynaudio midrange. The dynaudio tweeters are inferior, but the sound is a better match - overall the result is a better sound with the Dynaudio tweeters.

[audiomike]

Thanks for the advice guys. One of my concern is I choose my drivers based on other ppls review but have no idea if they will match each other. Does anyone has any suggestion for drivers selection. I am after 2-way active setup at the moment. I heard Mille ML280 sounds very neutralwith good details and top end. HAT has good midwoofer performance with good bass and mid range.

[muzzy66]

audiomike, on Apr 29 2009, 05:03 AM, said:

Thanks for the advice guys. One of my concern is I choose my drivers based on other ppls review but have no idea if they will match each other. Does anyone has any suggestion for drivers selection. I am after 2-way active setup at the moment. I heard Mille ML280 sounds very neutralwith good details and top end. HAT has good midwoofer performance with good bass and mid range.

This right here is exactly why a couple of years ago I stopped buying speakers based on opinion of others, and started doing my own research regarding objective/measured performance of speakers (distortion, frequency response, impedance response, etc).

I used to ask for recommendations, and all I would get is 5 guys saying "speaker X is brilliant", then 5 guys saying "speaker Y is brilliant" then 5 guys saying "speaker Z is the best of them all" then the original 10 guys saying "speaker Z is horrible".

After a while I got to the point where choosing a speaker pretty much came down to one persons word against another's, and that was when I decided hell with this - I need to find some other means to decide what speaker is best for me.

The first thing people will say is "listen to them for yourself, and get the one you like the best", but then this has issues in itself.
- Firstly of all, if you only want to hear what a midrange sounds like, then it might not help hearing it in a system running along with a tweeter and midbass (both of which are different to what you plan to use), because you don't know if all that you are hearing is that midrange.

- Secondly, you don't know if that midrange is going to sound in your system, anything like what it sounds like in the system you hear it in. Different car, different place, different angle, different tuning and crossover settings.

- Thirdly, it's often true that the specific drivers you want to listen to, don't seem to be in use anywhere around where you live. You may want to hear a specific (very rare) Rainbow midrange for example, which happens to not be in a single car in Australia - so then what do you do? Ignore it completely just because you can't hear it?

I decided to take my own approach - i'll check out all the products I can get definate objective information about (via tests and supplied data), and from those I'll choose something that suits my own requirements. Does this mean certain drivers won't make consideration? Yes. The way I look at it, the consumers (us) are the people keeping the manufacturers in business by buying their products, and if they aren't going to support us (by giving us necessary technical information about their products) then I won't support them by buying it - simple as that.

You wouldn't have a new motor custom built for your project car, if the people building it aren't gonig to tell you what it can do - and likewise I'm not going to buy a speaker unless the manufacturer can give me at least SOME indication of what it can do.

It's a controversial approach (and many would disagree with it) but i'm not buying a product just becuase a salesman (or the people who make it) tells me it's good. I wan't to see some data.

The exception is prebuilt systems (spliit systems, hifi speakers, etc). In the case of these, you can buy with some degree of comfort based just on listening tests, because you know how it sounds as a whole. Individual components though, I wouldn't.

[audiomike]

Thanks muzzy66. I totally agree your approach. However, I am only a newbie on car stereo. To gain the indepth knowledge to a point where I know what I wanted is a bit out of reach at the moment. I am a kind of person who is fuzzy and won't mind to do all the hard yard for great reward. Can you shed some lights on where I should start with this journey?

[br85]

Have a look at some DIY home speakers people have had success with (preferably measured success) and consider the combination of drivers used. While it's not the best way to go, it will certainly help a newbie choose drivers that have at least worked together in some other scenario.

[Matt VIP]

my other suggestion was going to be to go and listen to people's cars. Go see some of the better installers in your area and listen to their cars. Go to a comp, listen listen listen. Take your own music with you and work out which "sound" is for you, then ask the owners what they use and why they use those speakers. Muzzy's way is a good way, but it needs to be backed up with a lot of purchasing of drivers and doing your own listening tests. Expensive, but very instructive.


If you're going to drop a grand or more on some speakers, make sure you do your homework.



what you do need to worry about as well, is making sure that your driver choice is going to match your install. By that I mean, if you're considering using HAT mids, then do you have the capacity to do an IB install? If you're going to use aircirc tweeters, can you make sure that you can get these very large drivers on axis away from reflections? If you use scanspeak midbasses, can you get them in a 20L sealed enclosure? that sort of stuff. Analyse your install, speaker positions, enclosure volume availability and choose the right sort of drivers for the right application.

Of course, that's probably not what you wanted to hear. In which case, I'd suggest something like:

scanspeak revelator 6.5" 4ohm midbass in doors with aircirc tweeter on axis in kicks

HAT L6 + L1 pro. Midbass could go in doors, but preferably IB or free air in kicks. Tweeter on axis in a pillars

something from Dynaudio? ask PulseR for advice on that one

[audiomike]

What is IB for the door? Seems I am going to learn some new terms here. Good start for myself. I am interested in HAT L6 and do I need a custom built seal box for the doors? Will these drivers mix with scanspeak aircirc? Guess it is hard for me to get an idea until I have listen to many cars to gain that experience.