34 replies to this topic

[Westy87]

Hey guys. After being around the SQ guys for around a year now, I'm finding theres so much more to music than I ever imagined. But the problem is, when I was going in SQ comps and what-not, I found the judges telling me things like "I have sloppy bass" or that "the treble is set too high, you can hear it 'lisping' on the high notes". But to be honest I really couldn't hear those things.

I'm wondering, how do people come about the ability to distuinguish so many sounds in amongst the music? Is it something your born with, or is it something you can aquire and train your ears to hear? I have a friend who says he played in an orchestra with a clarinet and said that he had to learn to pick out all the different sounds, so I assume it is possible

So, how have you come to have 'audiophile' quality ears, and how can I? Is it even worth it, or should I be happy that most things sound good to me?

Cheers,

Westy

[Matt VIP]

ignorance, my friend, is bliss.

Audiophiliability is also the key to a heavier wallet, less chance of carpal tunnel syndrome, and an ability to appreciate and enjoy all types of music.

If you want to go down the path of "training" yourself to critically analyse and understand sound as well as hear the nuances of the music, then you need to be aware that it comes at a cost.

The payoff, and there's always a payoff, is that when you hear something that is brilliantly reproduced, and its your favourite music, and you're hearing stuff in the music you've never heard before, it's awesome. totally awesome*. But very expensive....



*see Fury's signature quote for more details

Edited by Matt VIP, 28 April 2009 - 10:41 PM.

[Westy87]

Matt VIP, on Apr 28 2009, 10:36 PM, said:

ignorance, my friend, is bliss.

The payoff, and there's always a payoff, is that when you hear something that is brilliantly reproduced, and its your favourite music, and you're hearing stuff in the music you've never heard before, it's awesome. totally awesome

And I think it's this reason I'm still trying to upgrade my system. After buying Michael Jackson's number 1's album and experiencing his awesome recordings on decent speakers and as you said, hearing things I've never heard before (have no idea what I was hearing, just new that it was awesome) it was great, and I immediatly went looking for that next song/album that would give me the same feeling. I found Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon was also extremely nice, providing a large variety of sounds Michael Jackson tends to leave out (once again I havn't got the experience/quality of ears to pick out what they were, I just knew it was different!)

[muzzy66]

It's something you just get used to over time.

Having access to tools (such as RTA's etc) can potentially help a little, because you hear certain issues with your ears, and then the RTA will tell you where they are, and after a while you'll start getting the hang of what different frequencies sound like etc.

You can also learn gradually by just building lots of different systems, using lots of different components, and playing around with lots of different tuning settings. Playing with EQ and experimenting with boosts/cuts at different frequencies can help you to begin identifying what different frequencies sound like, what types of sounds occur at different frequencies, etc.

Likewise, running active setups (especially three-way active front stages) can also help, because they are so complicated - just getting crossover points and levels correct with an active three-way front stage can be an absolute mission, and an excercise in patience, but it can also be a great learning experience.

After you've been playing around with stuff long enough, you eventually begin to learn to identify things when you hear them. For example, I can sit in front of a set of speakers for 15-20 mins, play a good range of familliar tracks, and then at the end of it I can say "there is a peak of around 2db-3dB somewhere in the lower midbass..maybe 80-120hz?" or "the midrange is a little lacking somewhere...sounds like maybe a bit of a gap around 1.5khz - 2.5khz" etc.

For example, when when I first started out 3 or 4 years ago, I wouldn't have even known what midbass sounds like or what it was. Comparatively, I listened to ar3nbe's car about a year ago and managed to correctly pick his sub/midbass crossover point and slope just by listening for about 10-15 mins with a few familliar tracks.

I don't think theres any way to force-teach it...I think you just have to pick it up over time. Can make for a nice party trick though

[Steve77]

I'm interested to hear some of the replies to this too. I'm pretty sure you could train yourself to some extent, but i reckon it would also depend on natural abilities and the acuteness of each individual's hearing. I'm sure we've all known people who seem to have an above average sense of hearing, sight, smell or taste (could we all be trained to be wine tasters or food critics?). Learning a musical instrument and playing in bands (especially from a young age) would probably help. I've seen ads in guitar magazines that claim to be able to teach anyone to have "perfect pitch" - i kind of doubt that we could all learn that ability though.

[Matt VIP]

Thats a bit like saying only a select few of us could ever learn how to do calculus. Sure, it's tricky. Sure, a lot of us did it in high school and had NFI what the hell they were on about. However, if you're interested in a subject, there is actually very very little that you can't learn based on your innate "ability". It's all about how much you want to learn, and how long you're prepared to nut out the more difficult issues, not about whether you're "able" or "unable".

The great thing with music is that it is all around us, every day. Learning about it (and the physics behind sound reproduction) is much much easier because you can instantly apply what you know to the real world. You already know everything about it, just by listening. The only difference is that someone might be able to put it into words better than you, thats all. Having learnt music and music theory for a number of years helped me, but not as much as simply being interested to learn more.

As you pointed out SPL, people's ability to hear certain frequencies can change. All that means is that one person might thinks that a note or instrument sounds like slightly different to the next person. It doesnt affect their own personal comprehension of what they're listening to. If you read all the posts on tuning in this discussion area, all of the most experienced members will always come back to

"just listen"

easy

Edited by Matt VIP, 29 April 2009 - 08:23 AM.

[Marc ♫]

Ahhh ... I still remember the first time I was invited by Bruce and Grant Stapleton to sit in on them judging SQ at a small car show.
I thought they were both a little cuckoo talking about hearing saxophones over on the left, a female vocalist in the centre etc. Surely they didn't believe you could hear where instruments were placed on a sound stage, from only a stereo system?

It all began there, and I found myself embarking on a quest for audio bliss. Hundreds of hours spent in my driveway going through every single CD I owned and just listening. As I could hear more, I could improve my system to more accurately produce it. I think I really only got there once with one particular system I had in the Lancer. Why I ever changed it I don't know, as I haven't been back to that point since (and yet!).

It's catch 22 though. With trained ears now being able to hear the soundstage, an understanding of what it should sound like helped with experience from playing in a band and working in a recording studio, it now makes audio something I can only enjoy on an excellent system. With excellence, at very least comes hundreds of hours of installing / tuning, and quite often a lot of dollars to go with it. Just like a good scotch! Once you've had the good stuff, you can't even look at the cheap stuff!

My final point is, persistence. Keep at it, and one day when you least expect it, your audio becomes 3D. Just like those 3D pictures, you stare and stare at them and all of sudden you find the other dimension. SQ is just the same. When the penny drops, you find yourself able to hear things that just didn't exist previously. I just reminded myself how much I love quality audio from this post.

[~Spyne~]

agree with all above. it just takes alot of time, alot of listening, and often some helpful tips/guidance from those more experienced to help 'teach your ears'
i'm still learning, but i'm way, WAY better able to technically critique a stereo than i was when i first started coming to comps.

but as has also been mentioned, with that ability to sort the good SQs from the bad SQs, also comes the 'loss of innocence' - you often find urself unable to enoy alot of music simply because it is poorly recorded, or is being played on a poorly set-up system. finding enjoyable music that is well recorded is becoming harder and harder nowadays

[beastvs]

If you play an instrument, You usually learn alot quicker, At least that's my experience anyway.

[~thematt~]

What you need to hear, you can already hear. There is no such thing as a Golden Ear.

Awareness, Understanding, Application.

Thats it. You're not 'born with it', you learn it. Like Calculus (as a metaphor already used), some learn quicker then others. Doesnt mean you cant learn it.

Tools like RTA's, LD/NLD plots, etc. help understanding. You still need awareness first.

[fuddbutter]

i spend some time in front of $200,000 worth of home audio with a couple of disc's i knew well
then went back to my car and listed again to see if i could pick up bits and pieces.

plus i spent many many many hours sitting out in the car with a couple cold beers in the dark just listening to good cd's (like the chesky disc or alpine disc)

[fuddbutter]

Also i have never used an RTA etc on my cars.
or used one to learn with. only ever used my ears.

[~Spyne~]

mm, i've never used an rta either. would be interested in seeing what it tells me about the linearity though

[Damo95]

I have no choice... cant use my ears... so i borrow someone else's...


but learning what you are listening for helps... i've found that closing your eyes (or sitting in pitch black) can help, so you can focus..

[Vs-Sedan-Mad]

~Spyne~, on Apr 29 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

but as has also been mentioned, with that ability to sort the good SQs from the bad SQs, also comes the 'loss of innocence' - you often find urself unable to enoy alot of music simply because it is poorly recorded, or is being played on a poorly set-up system. finding enjoyable music that is well recorded is becoming harder and harder nowadays

That is so true Spyne! I was only thinking that yesterday.