19 replies to this topic

[eclipse_DYN]

Guys,

Im on a mission to achieve a really great sound stage (arent we all!) Thus far, I have managed to get good height, width, and a solid centre image (finally)

One area I'm struggling in is depth. The centre image is dead centre, directly above the head unit, but with little or no depth at all. Almost like the sound stage is "two dimensional"

I'll post my crossover points below:

Low - 100hz LP 12db/oct
MidL - 80hz HP 12db/oct
MidH - 800hz LP 12db/oct
High - 800hz HP Flat

I have the High channel on flat as the midrange and tweet is still running off the passive crossover. Im under the impression that if I apply a 12db crossover from the head unit, and a 6db from the passive than I will end up with an 18db crossover?

The midbass is running from an Eclipse 4212 (2x240) and the midrange and tweet via the passive crossover from a Tru S44 (2x200)

Can anyone offer any advice as to what I can do to improve this? Im not keen on moving speaker locations, as they are custom. I have the midbass in the doors, and tweet and midrange in the kicks.

[br85]

Try rolling off the high end (8khz and up) a few db and listen for about 45 minutes to a variety of music including some orchestral stuff and see if that doesn't help. One of the few things about "distance from the music" that you CAN emulate in a car is that high end rolloff. It might lose that shimmery edge you're used to, but you'd be surprised how good it sounds once you're used to it.

It will just sound like ass at low and very low volumes. You win some, you lose some though.

[Winno]

Do your pods allow any swivel for the tweeter?
'Usually' twisting the tweeter so that you're now off axis with it can yield good results at the expence of gain (which can be rectified through judicious use of eq or using a tweeter with a better off axis response in the first place).
From my experience, this is easiest achieved through angling and placement of drivers.
I've yet to experience a car with good depth of field by having drivers on axis with you. That's not to say that it's not been achieved of course.

To be honest, this should have been thought of as party to designing your pods in the first place. I'm thinking that although you love them and have the dollars put into them, you might have to change a few things to get a better result.

Edited by Winno, 12 November 2009 - 06:57 AM.

[Matt VIP]

I have experienced pretty much the same thing as you ED - a 2 dimensional stage with nice centre, reasonable width and height, but no depth at all.

Before the last comp, me and Sydmonster were mucking around with some new tweeter pods up on the dash, trying to get a centre image from both seats with no T/A (we got pretty close!). The tweeters ended up at about 60 degrees off axis to the nearside listener, so more or less pointing at/across the windscreen. This produced a couple of effects:

- good centre image
- decreased width to just inside the a-pillar (which is where the tweeters were moved to, about 5cms in from each pillar
- excellent, 3d depth which I'd never had before in my car. Scored 13/15 for depth by the judges.
- reduced sibilance/harshness (I assume from not being on axis to the tweeter)

So, as pointed out above, before you do any tricky EQ-ing or delaying, is moving the tweeters around. It's easier with a mate where you can both muck around with driver positioning to see what works, and what effect each position has.

We used the explanation/voice over tracks on the Chesky UDD disc (on repeat) to do this, and it took about an hour.

[Daz]

sorry i'm having one of those day.. no pun ment but

as the topic goes:
How to achieve depth?

well dig a deaper hole.

once again
sorry
Daz

[icacha]

eclipse_DYN, on Nov 11 2009, 11:50 PM, said:

I have the midbass in the doors, and tweet and midrange in the kicks.

the depth should roughly be across the dash from where your mids are located, the further away the deeper the stage.

and as matt has said, you can achieve depth but loose width if you put your tweets up on the dash

[~thematt~]

Depth cues are primarily high frequency rolloff related, and reflection based.

Cure early reflections, and you'll find depth increases fairly substantially. Knocking your high end down in a rolloff fashion I've found to be fairly effective as well (as br85 has mentioned). This though, needs to tie in with an increased level from 7-12k over 1-4k to keep the height at a decent level.

[Winno]

icacha, on Nov 12 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

you can achieve depth but loose width if you put your tweets up on the dash

This is usually the case but not always.
My far side stage width is out past the side mirror and the effect is quite striking sometimes. The challenge is to emulate that on my side of the car too...
Yes, my tweets and mids are on top of the dash.

Anyone ever put their tweeters on the dash in a ways from the pillars (thus still allowing a solid centre image) and fired them outwards to the pillars?
There's an idea for you...

Edited by Winno, 12 November 2009 - 10:21 AM.

[Matt VIP]

just not a very good one though....

[fuddbutter]

Get longer path lengths with your speakers helps immensely

mebbe smoke and mirrors, helped me

[eclipse_DYN]

br85, on Nov 11 2009, 11:52 PM, said:

Try rolling off the high end (8khz and up) a few db and listen for about 45 minutes to a variety of music including some orchestral stuff and see if that doesn't help. One of the few things about "distance from the music" that you CAN emulate in a car is that high end rolloff. It might lose that shimmery edge you're used to, but you'd be surprised how good it sounds once you're used to it.

It will just sound like ass at low and very low volumes. You win some, you lose some though.

I'll give that a go mate. I don't mind losing a bit at low volumes, as I do most of my listening at mid - high volume anyway. I currently have a 3db boost at 16khz with a q of 3 for a bit of added high end, but I'll try adjusting the other way and see what happens.

Winno, on Nov 12 2009, 06:56 AM, said:

Do your pods allow any swivel for the tweeter?
'Usually' twisting the tweeter so that you're now off axis with it can yield good results at the expence of gain (which can be rectified through judicious use of eq or using a tweeter with a better off axis response in the first place).
From my experience, this is easiest achieved through angling and placement of drivers.
I've yet to experience a car with good depth of field by having drivers on axis with you. That's not to say that it's not been achieved of course.

To be honest, this should have been thought of as party to designing your pods in the first place. I'm thinking that although you love them and have the dollars put into them, you might have to change a few things to get a better result.

Unfortunately, no swivel or movement at all in my pods. I am buying a new car in the next 6 months, and I will seriously be considering whether to go with kick panels or dash/a pillar install this time. I have heard Woody's install with the 362's and the mid/tweet mounted high and it sounds brilliant.

Another thing I should have mentioned is that I have the tweet on -2 on the passive crossover. I've had to do this as I found that the tweeter protection was kicking it at high volumes otherwise. Of course I can lower the gain to counteract this, but then I lost volume through my midrange.....

Edited by eclipse_DYN, 12 November 2009 - 12:39 PM.

[icacha]

Winno, on Nov 12 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

Yes, my tweets and mids are on top of the dash.

I prefer a proper 3D stage with a height that varies when listening to my music. I'm not a fan of the compressed stage height i.e not quite the 3D stage music is intended to sound like when listening to the original recording, iPod wins here over CD's I have found. But if a compressed stage height is what helps you score better or sleep at night then everyone should knock themselves out with pillar mount mids and tweets... You all have my blessings

[icacha]

Anyone remember that show on TV that was called "Location, Location, Location"? Get that right and you're house could be worth a motzer later... <- see how many can read between the lines?

[Pulse-R]

depth is also meant to be 3-dimensional. a lack of depth is usually associated with S/N ratio and separation... these are artefacts of jitter and un-wanted crosstalk in the electronic circuits.

in home audio systems, more expensive equipment generally has improvements in both of these critical areas, and is easily the difference between "Oh, it's stereo I think" and "OMFG do you 'see' the sound stage! and that piano was too close to the wall when they did that recording".

it also helps to actually have some excellent recordings to listen to. 99.9999% are not good enough.

[Winno]

icacha, on Nov 12 2009, 06:06 PM, said:

I prefer a proper 3D stage with a height that varies when listening to my music. I'm not a fan of the compressed stage height i.e not quite the 3D stage music is intended to sound like when listening to the original recording, iPod wins here over CD's I have found. But if a compressed stage height is what helps you score better or sleep at night then everyone should knock themselves out with pillar mount mids and tweets... You all have my blessings

Who's getting a compressed stage height?
I'm not. I get good depth and good variation in height (and it's not rainbowing).
Was listening to a track the other day with a vocalist playing a guitar and vocals were dead ahead with the guitar positioned slightly lower in her lap.

Yes, there are some things that a kicks based system does very well but I have yet to hear one that is anywhere near as transparent as a dash top based system.

But yeah, whatever turns you on I guess. That's the challenge we all face in trying the get the best out of our systems.