18 replies to this topic

[simplesq]

Hi Gentlemen,

Where can I audition a set of Esotar2 430's? Furthermore, has anyone heard a set of these and are they worth the price?

[shiny_car]

i don't think there are any in VIC. if i was going 3-way in my GT i would add them too (i have E650 woofers).

you might only find them to audition in QLD (Northfield) or possibly NSW (Fhrx Studios) but even then, i don't think Marty keeps them in stock at Fhrx.

are they worth it? well, they are regarded as one of THE best midrange drivers on the market. at this level of quality, they are worth it, and you need to be able to afford them.

alternatives?
*Morel CDM88 (much cheaper but good quality)
*HAT L4
*Audison Thesis Voce
*Sinfoni S100M
*Focal Utopia Be
*?Vifa, Scanspeak, Peerless, etc

personally, i like matching drivers from the same series. and obviously have quality gear throughout your system to justify having such a high quality mid.

so do you have - or plan to - have the Dyn Esotar2 E650 or E110?

[simplesq]

shiny_car, on Dec 16 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

i don't think there are any in VIC.
I'm loving it already Shiny

if i was going 3-way in my GT i would add them too (i have E650 woofers).
alternatives?
I considered using the E650 woofer as a midrange from 150hz to 2Khz, but I prefer a crossover point of 3.5Khz. Yes, I know the E650 would go that high but it won't be as linear as the E430.

*Morel CDM88 (much cheaper but good quality)
Have seriously considered this, but can't go down to 200hz. Have even considered a Supremo5 or 6

*HAT L4
This will suit my application but I like different, so a definate no...

*Audison Thesis Voce
Different indeed but a reliable source, who competes in expert class told me that they clinical. Our tastes are similar & I value his opinion.

*Sinfoni S100M
Not interested

*Focal Utopia Be
Yes, for Dynamics but a no as a little long in the tooth

Vifa, Scanspeak, Peerless, etc
Definite no

personally, i like matching drivers from the same series.
I do too but in saying that, with all honesty, I genuinely believe that no one manufacturer makes everything perfect. If this was the case I would purchase everything from Morel. As big a Morel fanatic i may be, I admit that their midbass as fantastic as they are lacks serious punch and a little thin down low & their midrange as wonderfullly glorious as they are making you feel all fuzzy inside, lacks dynamics.

and obviously have quality gear throughout your system to justify having such a high quality mid.
I agree wholeheartedly and I assure you Sir if that wasn't the case I'de keep my current midrange driver.

so do you have - or plan to - have the Dyn Esotar2 E650 or E110?
The answer is no Richard, I don't have any other Dynaudio gear & I'm extremely happy with all my choices thus far...

[shiny_car]

200Hz is pretty low. what midbass and tweeter have you got, and what midrange do you have now?

[~thematt~]

simplesq, on Dec 16 2009, 08:00 AM, said:

are they worth the price?

Thats a good question. I'll answer that with a similar question. Is there anything in the driver that commands such a hefty price tag?

shiny_car, on Dec 16 2009, 08:16 AM, said:

are they worth it? well, they are regarded as one of THE best midrange drivers on the market. at this level of quality, they are worth it, and you need to be able to afford them.

Same as above. Who makes this 'regard', and is it based on anything besides a listening test by people who have already purchased them? Justification is a strong motivator.

For $1.5k a pair, for 4" mids, I'd expect something special. Shorting Rings AND Faraday Rings or a Dual Differential/SD Motor (all for linear displacement and low distortion), loss-less surround and Kevlar impregnated cone (for low energy storage), AlNico magnets (to justify the cost, I'd be expecting very special magnets), full copper (not aluminium) coils and push-plug terminals. The basket will need to be resonant free, and preferably cast (not stamped).

If the driver had all this sort of stuff, and then measured a symmetrical displacement, a playkurtic BL distribution, very low levels of 2nd 3rd and 4th harmonic distortions and had wonderful heat dissipation, then I would consider $1.5k for a pair.

From what I know, the Esotar 430 doesnt contain any of the above.

[shiny_car]

only the cast basket.



in all honesty, i didn't understand much of what you described. but that's like choosing a driver according to its specs, and not how it sounds. i know you wouldn't do that. ideally, we all look past the costs, brands, and specs, and simply listen.

there's various reasons that the cost can be so high, unrelated to performance. for example, marketing, R&D, tooling/production, low production numbers, packaging, etc. i have no doubt a lot of the cost of the E430 relates to these factors.

it's true, those that claim the Esotar2 drivers are fantastic are primarily those that own them. bias for sure. nor can i personally give a true opinion, cos i've not heard the E430. still, i'd personally happily buy them. whether you call me a sucker for marketing, or simply fortunate enough to be able to afford them...that's a subjective opinion.

seriously, cost aside, what would you recommend thematt? (i'm not going to shoot you down! i respect your opinions enough to value them).

[simplesq]

shiny_car, on Dec 16 2009, 01:39 PM, said:

200Hz is pretty low. what midbass and tweeter have you got, and what midrange do you have now?

Tweeter: Supremo Piccolo
Midbass: ZR-800CW's (2 of 1st 4 in Australia)
Subwoofer: Ultimo 12 (4ohm version)
Midrange: 7" Kenwood XXV's (see now, why I'm looking at upgrading)

[shiny_car]

fair enough. how high have you had the 8" drivers playing? do they not sound that good much above 200Hz?

[simplesq]

shiny_car, on Dec 16 2009, 02:11 PM, said:

fair enough. how high have you had the 8" drivers playing? do they not sound that good much above 200Hz?

So far all experimentation have been both in house & in my Mrs. Jeep (due to having 2 sets of ZR's & XXV's) as I haven't yet started my install. The 8" drivers play really sweet at 300-350hz at butterworth slopes in a sealed eclosure of 25litres, though Jl suggests 20.2litres resulting in a Qtc of 1.155 (amma boom, boom), going down to 201hz in the same sealed enclosure of 25 litres I prefer the Linkwitz Riley slopes. I was planning on installing them in the doors hence trying to keep them at 200hz. However having a 4" midrange like the Esotar350 will allow me the option of a 2way kick panel where I can hit that sweet spot of the ZR's obviously keeping the 2 drivers well & truly seperated.

Edited by simplesq, 16 December 2009 - 01:58 PM.

[zion187reigneth]

if you can install a open back midrange driver your options are numerous.I would do a 5" in the 3way as your midrange but if you cant get the box volume you require go a 4", although i found if you push under 200hz at high volumes it better be a low playing one.

[jas]

maybe have a listen to richards car it has the esotar2 650 6.5inch midrange drivers.

4inch might be your best bet though since we all have limited room in our kick panels and we all own RHD cars....which is a big restiction on kick panel development. Also you will require a grill...the esotars do not come with one.....what else can you get that has a good strong grill unless you copy the cresendo grill.

other speakers to look at would be the seas lotus 4inch drivers or excell series.

5 1/4 drivers will give you generally more output and give you that flexiblity to go lower on the x-overs....but room is the issue.

[~thematt~]

shiny_car, on Dec 16 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

only the cast basket.



in all honesty, i didn't understand much of what you described. but that's like choosing a driver according to its specs, and not how it sounds. i know you wouldn't do that. ideally, we all look past the costs, brands, and specs, and simply listen.

there's various reasons that the cost can be so high, unrelated to performance. for example, marketing, R&D, tooling/production, low production numbers, packaging, etc. i have no doubt a lot of the cost of the E430 relates to these factors.

it's true, those that claim the Esotar2 drivers are fantastic are primarily those that own them. bias for sure. nor can i personally give a true opinion, cos i've not heard the E430. still, i'd personally happily buy them. whether you call me a sucker for marketing, or simply fortunate enough to be able to afford them...that's a subjective opinion.

seriously, cost aside, what would you recommend thematt? (i'm not going to shoot you down! i respect your opinions enough to value them).

Thats actually a very mature response! You wont last long around here

Stating that one would or wouldnt choose a driver based on its specs is a loaded statement. I wouldnt choose a driver based on its T/S specs, no, but on its Klippel and distortion analysis, absolutely. If the driver reproduces the source material faithfully (low distortion), and the motor system is very very good, there isn't much holding me back. I don't pick drivers on sound anymore because I don't want my drivers to MAKE a sound. I want them to reproduce faithfully, full stop. BUT, you need to fully UNDERSTAND and COMPREHEND the ENTIRETY of the results. This is not something most people can do.

My point regarding the cost is this. Out of that $1.5k, you are paying 25% (for eg.) for the speaker, and 75% for the company. Now some people may like brand naming, good for them. Dynaudio was once a great company. Then their smart people left, they pulled out of the DIY market, and their speakers didnt change for more then a decade. They have no name anymore. Therefore, they have only the quality of their speakers. And $1.5k speaks either volumes for the technological marvel that is their raw drivers, or the cleverness of their marketing department. I question which, by inferring its not the technological marvel one.

If I were to be recommending some 4" drivers, these would be on the top of the list, at any price.

- Focal Be. Preferably the Home Audio version for overall capability, but its 5.25" from memory. That being said, the Car Audio version is brilliant as well. Also, about 1/3rd of the price of the Dyn.
- HAT L4. I'd recommend it only if you want rid of your tweeters too. Not a shabby full-range style driver.
- Pioneer TS-101 PRS. Low loss surround and ultra stiff cone. VERY linear motor.
- Scan Rev 12m. The 4", whilst missing the SD motor of its bigger brothers, has very low distortion levels, and wonderful cone breakup.
- AT Cquenze. Definitely bigger than 4", but brilliant application of an SD Motor. Excellent cone design, and fairly linear.
- Seas Excel (Mag). Oldie now, but still a goodie. SD Motor, shorting rings, very stiff cone.
- Peerless Exclusive 4". Best value-for-money out there. Super low distortion, stiff cone, good motor, great performer.

If you like domes, then definitely the ATC. However, thats Huge. AT Cquenze style huge. Amazing linear stroke though.

My mind is blank on any others for now.

Given the price of these particular units mentioned above, and the capability of each one of them, I question what the Dyn offers thats better. Each of those companies perform in house R&D, none of them produce massive quantities of product, and most are made by hand. Look at the Rainbow Reference, it was a Seas Excel design, made with exotic bling materials in exotic factories, and had an exotic price tag. But it wasnt better then the original Seas Excel. It was the same.

In fact, ignoring the price altogether, I question whether the Dyn is indeed better at all.

[simplesq]

~thematt~, on Dec 16 2009, 04:17 PM, said:

If I were to be recommending some 4" drivers, these would be on the top of the list, at any price.

- Focal Be. Preferably the Home Audio version for overall capability, but its 5.25" from memory. That being said, the Car Audio version is brilliant as well. Also, about 1/3rd of the price of the Dyn.

Reconsidering Focals, auditioned the 3-way's a whiiiiiile ago and midrange left a lasting impression for sure. I just got off Focal Australia Website, no prices or specs for Focal Be Midrange, they don't seem to sell individual drivers. Can anybody help by providing the afforementioned as well as retailer, just in case I decide to take this old school midrange driver.

[shiny_car]

nice info.

~thematt~, on Dec 16 2009, 04:17 PM, said:

If I were to be recommending some 4" drivers, these would be on the top of the list, at any price.

- Focal Be. Preferably the Home Audio version for overall capability, but its 5.25" from memory. That being said, the Car Audio version is brilliant as well. Also, about 1/3rd of the price of the Dyn.
- HAT L4. I'd recommend it only if you want rid of your tweeters too. Not a shabby full-range style driver.
- Pioneer TS-101 PRS. Low loss surround and ultra stiff cone. VERY linear motor.
- Scan Rev 12m. The 4", whilst missing the SD motor of its bigger brothers, has very low distortion levels, and wonderful cone breakup.
- AT Cquenze. Definitely bigger than 4", but brilliant application of an SD Motor. Excellent cone design, and fairly linear.
- Seas Excel (Mag). Oldie now, but still a goodie. SD Motor, shorting rings, very stiff cone.
- Peerless Exclusive 4". Best value-for-money out there. Super low distortion, stiff cone, good motor, great performer.

If you like domes, then definitely the ATC.

what's the heads-up on availability of brands like Scanspeak, ATC, Seas, and Peerless in Oz? muzzy and his bro still dealing with Scan and Peerless?

have i just succumb to marketing and the lure of 'Italian' by buying SStealth's Sinfoni 3-way set?! no regrets at all, but curious to know if you have an opinion of them.

[Pulse-R]

simplesq, on Dec 16 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

Reconsidering Focals, auditioned the 3-way's a whiiiiiile ago and midrange left a lasting impression for sure. I just got off Focal Australia Website, no prices or specs for Focal Be Midrange, they don't seem to sell individual drivers. Can anybody help by providing the afforementioned as well as retailer, just in case I decide to take this old school midrange driver.

Give Marty at FHRX a call. Last time I spoke to him, he was able to order individual drivers.