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Crossover points in a 3 way setup


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#1 HEKYEH

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 04:02 PM

Does anyone overlap their xover points?

i.e. Sub from 20-80Hz, then midbass from 40-280Hz, midrange from 200-3.2Khz, tweeter from 2.5KHz-20KHz...and use a 24db slope...

I've been using 24db slopes and not overlapping the xover points.

Any thoughts/ideas on this? Benefits/disadvantages? One that I can think of would be in the vocal range...having 2 different speakers playing vocals might sound strange... Or I could be totally wrong!


Then fury replied with....


Quote

Ask yourself this:

What does a crossover do?

What information do we need to determine a cross over (ignoring our ears)?

How does a crossover effect/relate to this information?


Followed by my response....


Quote

My brain hurts.....

Well...a crossover splits the signal into separate frequencies so they are directed to the appropriate speaker...

Knowing the frequency response would be good....

That's where the xover points should be....


Or something like that.... :unsure:

But...what about when there is a midrange that will play from 140Hz to 10KHZ...and a tweeter that plays from 1.8KHz to 20KHZ...? For example :)


Then finally from fury....

Quote

This would be INCREDIBLY useful.

How do you hope to choose xover points when you don't know the frequency response of the drivers?


So...I know the frequency response of my drivers...and they overlap.

Boston G5 = 20 - 350Hz
HAT L8 = 40 - 2.5KHz
HAT L3 = 140Hz - 10KHz
HAT L1 Pro SE = 1.2KHz - 20KHz

Can xover points overlap? And what about different slopes on the HP and LP filters?

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#2 muzzy66

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 05:20 PM

Ok, you have kinda the right idea, but going the wrong way about it. It can be a little confusing though. so i can understand why.

First of all, when Fury says that you need to know your drivers' frequency response, he doesn't mean the 'frequency response' specification listed on the spec sheet or in the manual. This simple set of numbers are usually completely un-standardised, and as such they tell you pretty much nothing at all about a speaker. The upper and lower limits are pretty much always WAY overrated - especially with car speakers.

What you actually want, is a frequency response chart. It's basically a measured graph, which shows frequency (hz) across the horizontal axis, and output (dB) accross the vertical axis.

This gives you a far more usable data, because you can determine exactly when the driver starts to roll off (or beome erratic) and select an appropriate crossover point to cut the driver off before that occurs.

For example, here is a frequency response chart for the HAT L3 you are running:
Posted Image
HAT claims 140hz - 10khz usability for this driver, but as you can see it's about 5dB - 6dB down at 140hz, making it very much not recommended to be used this low. As far as frequency goes, it's only flat down to about 200hz, so based on FR alone this is the lowest you would cross (though high distortion would lead to me shifting to at least 400hz, personally).

On the top end it can genuinely play toi to 10khz, but only barely - the instant it passes 10khz it drops off almost like a shelf. Even the slightest degree off axis, and the top end of that chart would change dramatically - probably starting to drop off around 6k-7k. Not that you'd even know, because HAT have nicely not provided an off axis response...meaning that unless the driver is absolutely 100% on axis, finding the upper FR limitation is pretty much guess work.

At least they have actually provided a chart of some kind though - majority of car audio companies do not, which picking the right frequency pure guess work.

Anyhoo, the next problem is frequency response is really only a small part of the equation when determining crossover points. Just as important (if not moreso) is distortion. All drivers produce what's called non-linear distortion. How it works and where it comes from is a bit of a complicated point so I'll save that for now, but the important thing to know is that it sounds nasty. Basically, it's what makes a driver harsh of uncomfortable to listen to over long periods of time, or (if it's really bad) immediately. All drivers have distortion, but playing a driver outside of it's comfort zone (i.e. too low or too high) can increase distortion dramatically. A tweeter could be absolutely clear as day crossed at 4khz, but then crossing that same tweeter at 2khz could cause distortion at all frequencies to increase to dramatic levels.

So, this is the next thing you need to consider with a crossover - the frequency response chart on it's own isn't enough to go by. Perfect example, the infamous Vifa XT25 is has a near ruler flat frequency response that extends right down to about 1khz...going purely off the FR chart, you'd swear that you could cross this tweeter at 1.6khz no problems at all...but don't ever do it. The XT25 has exceptionally low distortion from 3khz up, moderate distortion at 2.5khz, and terrible distortion at 2khz and under. Not only would crossing at 1.6khz create a very uncomfortable sound over long periods of time, it would also dramatically increase the risk of damaging the tweeter - don't do it!

This is why I am always skeptical about car audio drivers - they rarely provide so much as a Frequency Response chart, and even those who go that far never provide distortion charts. I think Dynaudio's Esotar drivers are the only ones i've seen distortion graphs provided for. This makes me sceptical because taking distortion measurements is not THAT hard for a million dollar speaker manufacturer who already has the measuring equipment...so by not providing the data, what are they trying to hide? If the drivers were truly stunning in those results, surely they'd be flaunting the results at every opportunity, right?

But anyways, to sum it up the details you're looking for when setting crossovers are a combination of frequency response, and distortion. There could be other smaller factors, but these are the big ones.

Also to answer your other question, would you overlap crossovers? Generally no. The only time I would ever overlap drivers (either via crossover point or slope) is if it's absolutely necessary in order to make up for a deficiency of a particular driver. For example, if your midbass simply doesn't play low enough, so you're overlapping your sub a little to make up for it. People do this often, and it rarely gives good results - usually it's a case of trading one evil (response gap) for another (response peak) and very rarely do they work out well. On the odd rare occasion, a drivers natural rolloff may combine with the increasing slope of the other driver to magically produce a nice smooth transition but this is quite rare unless it's specifically planned. General rule for me is don't overlap, and if your drivers can't cover those frequencies get some that can.


Sorry for the length of the post, but hopefully some of it will offer you some insight :)
2004 Alfa 147 Twin Spark (Phase 1)
Source: Clarion HX-D2
Tweeter: Scan-Speak D3004/6020-00
Midbass: Scan-Speak 18W/8535-00
Speaker Amp: Tru-Technology Billet B-475
Subwoofer: Peerless 830877 XXLS 12"
Subwoofer Amp: Celestra VA210


1998 Ford EL Fairmont
Source: Eclipse CD8455
Tweeter: Scan-Speak D3004/6020-00
Midbass: Peerless 831882 HDS Exclusive
Subwoofer: Peerless 830846 XXLS 10"
Amp: Helix HXA-500

#3 ~Spyne~

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 05:32 PM

meh, my sub overlaps with my midbass...seems to work well, very seamless

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#4 Fury♫

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 05:36 PM

Pete gives too much information.
Let the people think about it, and try and answer, before you swamp them with information.
You learn better by doing, not by being spoon fed.

You do bring up *some* good points though.
So frequency response graph is important.
Polar response is also very important (frequency response at varying angles around the driver).
More importantly, IN CAR frequency response!! This way we can see the impact that the car has on the speaker... much more useful then raw speaker data.
Harmonic Distortion graphs! Very useful!!! Allows us to easily identify breakup nodes in the top end (or midrange depending on driver) so we can cross over well before it. Also shows us the drivers distortion down low when we begin to push it (excursion wise).

There are far more measurements you could do, but these are a good start, and only require a microphone, a mic pre amp, and some computer software (and a computer too, obviously).


Now in regards of overlap, are we talking electrical crossovers or acoustical crossover?
Electrical crossover, overlap is not a problem (and in some cases probably necessary... ie: subwoofer where ur midbass has already rolled off).

I'll let you read up on the difference between electrical and acoustic crossover, might learn you something :P

#5 ~thematt~

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 05:52 PM

Acoustically overlapping drivers is actually a very clever trick you can use to eliminate nulls in your frequency response.

And Muzz, I was almost surprised and proud of your reply until you said frequency repsonse graphs were good. They are useless, and you should have said (which fuzz did anyway) that the INCAR frequency response was what he needed.

For example, he has horns. The FR would demonstrate the response going down until the horn unloads. Which is around 1.2kHz. In a car, with the horn mounted correctly and seamlessly, this can go down to around 700-800Hz.

Also, the distortion that increases as your frequency increases/decreases (such as 'bottoming out' drivers) is harmonic distortion (or linear). Not non-linear. Its linear because the distortion levels change in a linear relationship to frequency.

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#6 HEKYEH

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:23 PM

~thematt~, on Jan 20 2010, 06:52 PM, said:

For example, he has horns. The FR would demonstrate the response going down until the horn unloads. Which is around 1.2kHz. In a car, with the horn mounted correctly and seamlessly, this can go down to around 700-800Hz.

I don't actually have horns...I've got the HAT L1 Pro SE which is a ring radiator tweeter :)

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#7 HEKYEH

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:30 PM

fury, on Jan 20 2010, 06:36 PM, said:

More importantly, IN CAR frequency response!! This way we can see the impact that the car has on the speaker... much more useful then raw speaker data.
Harmonic Distortion graphs! Very useful!!! Allows us to easily identify breakup nodes in the top end (or midrange depending on driver) so we can cross over well before it. Also shows us the drivers distortion down low when we begin to push it (excursion wise).

There are far more measurements you could do, but these are a good start, and only require a microphone, a mic pre amp, and some computer software (and a computer too, obviously).

Definitely agree it's important to make these measurements IN CAR....totally different environment to how the speakers r tested at the factory/lab....

I've got True RTA....but it doesn't do Harmonic Distortion as far as I can tell...

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#8 Fury♫

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:45 PM

http://www.holmacous...holmimpulse.php

freeware too.

#9 HEKYEH

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:58 PM

fury, on Jan 20 2010, 06:36 PM, said:

Now in regards of overlap, are we talking electrical crossovers or acoustical crossover?
Electrical crossover, overlap is not a problem (and in some cases probably necessary... ie: subwoofer where ur midbass has already rolled off).

I'll let you read up on the difference between electrical and acoustic crossover, might learn you something :P

Acoustic crossovers are where the frequency filtering is done by the design of the enclosure.....right? Such as a ported sub box...?

Electrical crossovers....would be where the frequnecy is filtered electrically...with either active or passive crossovers....

I'm probably missing something out....

fury, on Jan 20 2010, 08:45 PM, said:


Awesome! Downloading it now :)



It looks confusing and intimidating.....time to RTFM....

Edited by NiDeKCuS, 20 January 2010 - 08:04 PM.

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#10 mad89

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 08:17 PM

Can someone please provide some cliffnotes for this thread? :lol: lol

- /////ALPINE - rainbow - TOTAL RECOIL - BostonAcoustics - Stinger - Aerpro - Dynamat -

- Presented By -

- 1994 Holden Nova -
- CAASQ/MEASQ Competitor 2006-2009 - 17 Trophies - 9 Wins - 3 Runner Ups - 3 Thirds -


- /////ALPINE - CRESCENDO - TRU Technology - DYNAUDIO - Stinger - Dynamat -

- Presented By -

- 1998 Subaru Impreza WRX -


:Trusted Buyers/Sellers:

- poisoner - trism - Fhrx - Gozza - nee - Leviathan - mac_man_luke - edy - Marc - advance - Tiger - Vazard -

- Big_Valven - Mafish - raff - Westy87 - cc1206 - hilas07 - Nic - sqking - SMI7HY - Elmo - keeddlez - MRVJ -

- sunday_diver - Daedalus - FL0SSIN - broadz - Gonadman2 - MR_XR6 - TEGBOY - nemesis - sliksilvia - sanzy -

- SStealth - Deftone2k - Tezza_VESSV - PURESX - SINTX3 - Doorslammer - orsm-vs - Syd_pulsin -


#11 HEKYEH

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 08:22 PM

www.cliffnotes.com/this_car_audio_stuff_hurts_my_brain_please_make_it_easy_to_understand.html

;)

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#12 268669♫

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 08:24 PM

easy rick

get rta
do IN CAR freq response, polar response/off axis response
determine acoustic crossovers
apply electronic crossovers

Listen and enjoy

Ant
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#13 mad89

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 08:30 PM

Easy game! :D

- /////ALPINE - rainbow - TOTAL RECOIL - BostonAcoustics - Stinger - Aerpro - Dynamat -

- Presented By -

- 1994 Holden Nova -
- CAASQ/MEASQ Competitor 2006-2009 - 17 Trophies - 9 Wins - 3 Runner Ups - 3 Thirds -


- /////ALPINE - CRESCENDO - TRU Technology - DYNAUDIO - Stinger - Dynamat -

- Presented By -

- 1998 Subaru Impreza WRX -


:Trusted Buyers/Sellers:

- poisoner - trism - Fhrx - Gozza - nee - Leviathan - mac_man_luke - edy - Marc - advance - Tiger - Vazard -

- Big_Valven - Mafish - raff - Westy87 - cc1206 - hilas07 - Nic - sqking - SMI7HY - Elmo - keeddlez - MRVJ -

- sunday_diver - Daedalus - FL0SSIN - broadz - Gonadman2 - MR_XR6 - TEGBOY - nemesis - sliksilvia - sanzy -

- SStealth - Deftone2k - Tezza_VESSV - PURESX - SINTX3 - Doorslammer - orsm-vs - Syd_pulsin -


#14 HEKYEH

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 08:33 PM

I have a pretty basic RTA setup..laptop, mic pre amp, behringer mic and True RTA software.

When I have used the RTA previously, I place the mic underneath the driver's head rest, so it's basically at ear level, facing forwards to the front windscreen.

Is this how I should position the mic when I measure the frequency response? And should each speaker be measured independently?

What sort of tone do I play to test the frequency response?

Sorry for the potentially noob-ish questions, but trying my best to learn here :)

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#15 ~thematt~

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 08:36 PM

NiDeKCuS, on Jan 20 2010, 05:23 PM, said:

I don't actually have horns...I've got the HAT L1 Pro SE which is a ring radiator tweeter :)
Sorry. That was the other dude!

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