14 replies to this topic

[Shreknos]

hey guys,

im about to embark which i hope to be, (but know it wont be) my last and greatest install,

the car is a 05' X-trail, there will be xt25's and peerless exclusive 4's in the existig dash pods for the side demisters, with sls 8's in the door enclosures...

now i saw today that the ms-8 has ben released, i am going to get one either way, i really want a centre channel to see what this baby can do though;

would i get the desired result if i was using a self contained unit like the dyn or morel dome mids? i really dont want to hack the dash for more enclosures? the issue is obviously that these can only be crossed as low as 6-700, would this effect low end vocal imaging? and also, my mids and tweeters will be getting roughly 200 watts each, will the ms-8's internal amp be enough for the centre channel??

thanks guys, if its a no-go, im just gonna set it up for two seats the hard way, but hopefully it will save me alot of trouble using a centre...

charlie

[Luke352]

I think using a Dyn/Morel/DLS sealed dome mid would probably get better results then no centre, but if you could get something like the exclusive 4's as a centre you would potentially get even better results. The question is though by how much, people are already reporting fantastic results without a centre, so how much better does it get with a centre, I believe Andy said the difference is fairly small if the vehicle is only setup for one seat, so you'd imagine the difference between the two different styles of centre wouldn't be that noticeable.

[~Spyne~]

i'd actually think something like a tangband or fostex fullrange would make a great centre.
and running a centre channel with the ms-8 (i beileve) is really only beneficial if you want good 2-seat staging/imaging?

[Shreknos]

hey guys, thanks for the replies...

yeah, personally it doesnt bother me about the two seat thing, as i mostly only ever drive alone, but it would be nice for my mates who are also into sound to be able to get good staging when there in the car, so two seat with centre is preferable...


is there any other costs involved beside driver, and install that you can foresee? and again, will it be enough power to run off the 20 watts the ms-8 provides??

[shiny_car]

You have to consider what frequency-range/bandwidth the centre will be playing.

If the purpose of your centre channel is primarily for staging, then you probably only need it to play between about 400~2KHz. So you won't need a tweeter, and should look at 'cone' 4~5.25" drivers. Most dome drivers won't play that low. But, a cone driver will warrant a sealed enclosure to work properly too.

If you are going to listen to 5.1 Dolby Digital, then you will want as 'full' a frequency range as possible, which warrants a 2-way setup including tweeter.

In my car, I built a sealed enclosure into the dashtop centre air vent housing (convenient). I've used a 4" (cone) Morel driver. It works ok, but struggles below about 400Hz cos the enclosure is tiny.

Ultimately, I don't rely on it much for staging, and will hopefully do without it altogether if I can rejig my L/R speakers properly.

[Shreknos]

i was hoping 6-700 was low enough, i really dont have the time patience, or willingness to have someone hack up the dash and put an enclosure, i think ur blessed to have a removable centre air con console, the x-trail doesnt have such a thing, im happy though to inciorporate a 4 inch sealed dome, as long as it doesnt effect the dash, looks good, and gives me a better result...

or i might just stick to no centre channel, and keep it simple...

[Damo95]

i'd try it without the centre channel first.. if you feel its needed, then investigate?

[Shreknos]

good idea damo, im letting frankston car audio handle it, heard hes a real proffesional so im sure he can acheive very stable image fro both sides given the dash, the qualit of grear, and his expertise...

got most of the gear, hunting for the right car atm...

[mrock]

i have a little 2inch clarion centre with the driver hidden. I'm not sure what it's crossed over at but I have a cap and resistor parralled inline. The important thing is to get it to sound invisible and help push the image. You definately don't want it to be too obvious. Also remember if you are going to run a centre off a 2 channel, make sure you check to see if the phasing is right when you bridge the two channells. Ie when using mixed mono and stereo. And Btw, Why would you want to run your stereo for one person. I think it's a waste of money and time. It is easy because you dial in the time allignment and whola, but then the person on the left suffers, and is also artificial.Try hiding your centre in the vents.

Edited by mrock, 18 June 2010 - 12:30 PM.

[~Spyne~]

mrock, on 18 June 2010 - 12:30 PM, said:

Why would you want to run your stereo for one person. I think it's a waste of money and time. It is easy because you dial in the time allignment and whola, but then the person on the left suffers, and is also artificial.

try doing well in MEASQ-VIC. Guarantee you it's not as easy as you think.

[Winno]

Whatever you do, wouldn't you want the drivers to be voiced the same?
You've said that you have Peerless mids for each side. From my experience in higher end home theatre, it pays to match drivers/speakers for this critical midband area closely so that the stage remains consistent across the width. The can be very important for panned sound.

If you can't go Peerless for the centre, then perhaps change out the sides so that you have something that will not only work well in the centre but also the sides too?

No?

Having said all of this, I've had my home systems in the past running a 'phantom' centre (no physical centre speaker) with great results because the left/right set up met properly in the middle anyway.

Edited by Winno, 18 June 2010 - 01:55 PM.

[Luke352]

mrock, on 18 June 2010 - 12:30 PM, said:

i have a little 2inch clarion centre with the driver hidden. I'm not sure what it's crossed over at but I have a cap and resistor parralled inline. The important thing is to get it to sound invisible and help push the image. You definately don't want it to be too obvious. Also remember if you are going to run a centre off a 2 channel, make sure you check to see if the phasing is right when you bridge the two channells. Ie when using mixed mono and stereo. And Btw, Why would you want to run your stereo for one person. I think it's a waste of money and time. It is easy because you dial in the time allignment and whola, but then the person on the left suffers, and is also artificial.Try hiding your centre in the vents.

No need to worry about all this sort of stuff when using an MS8, the MS8 uses Logic7 and some extremely complex algorithims that have actually been designed for in car use not hack jobs to make them kinda work in car, so the centre channel signal it creates is actually a proper downmix. There are several high level competitors in the States who have installed these in car and gotten results similar to or superior to what they were able to acheive with several months of tuning in the space of the 10min setup calibration the unit runs once installed. Plus Depth of stage and actual placement of instruments throughout the stage depthwise has improved, along with stage stability has been reported from users. But if you also run rears/sides it will actually improve ambience significantly and actually improve stage depth without any sense of music coming from behind.

[mrock]

The centre is suppossed to be a fill in, not a speaker to overpower the left and right. Dolby digital is diferent as you have 5-7 individual channels, so you want them to be the same. In a stereo setup in the car you just want it to enhance the stageing. Of course, this is not necessary at home. So it doesn't matter what speaker you use, as long as it's a midrange with simillar sensitivity, or at least the same cone material as the other midrange drivers. One favourite feature on the oldschool amps was the dual gains. I haven't seen many modern 2ch amps with that option. They are great for equalising the left and right channels, as the balance control is to course on the head units and does effect sound quality.

[mrock]

Sorry guys, I just noticed that I had gone off track. As you can tell, I am not really a fan of processing. when it comes to processing, it is only there for a quick fix. We sometimes get carried away and rely too much on it.

[Shreknos]

well as far as processing goes, i plan to set up the ms-8 and forget i own one, i dont plan to spend hours tuning, if i did, id get a P9 combo instead, i just want great sound ut of the box, and the ms-8 reportedly does that to a great standard...