14 replies to this topic

[br85]

After doing a bit of messing around with xt-25's and some car-audio specific tweeters, I've discovered that they're just not doing it for me at decent SPLs. Those tweeters that DO sound good at high SPLs either SUCK at reproducing 9k upwards, or can't go much lower than 5k when pushed.

I know the ideal answer is a good ribbon, but falling short of that, does anyone know of any dome (or Ring Radiator) tweeters that can do (say) 2.5khz - 20khz without sh!tting themselves and sounding like garbage above 100db? Don't mention compression drivers, they just can't do 20k.

[data_mine]

br85, on 07 July 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

After doing a bit of messing around with xt-25's and some car-audio specific tweeters, I've discovered that they're just not doing it for me at decent SPLs. Those tweeters that DO sound good at high SPLs either SUCK at reproducing 9k upwards, or can't go much lower than 5k when pushed.

I know the ideal answer is a good ribbon, but falling short of that, does anyone know of any dome (or Ring Radiator) tweeters that can do (say) 2.5khz - 20khz without sh!tting themselves and sounding like garbage above 100db? Don't mention compression drivers, they just can't do 20k.

You're 80yo self will thank you for listening to high freqs at 100dB+

If a ribbon is the ideal answer, what's stopping you? Why compromise?

[mrock]

A piezo will do it, with the right filtering. The Rta shows up 20k no prob. A Motorolla KSN 88 should be a good one for it.

Edited by mrock, 07 July 2010 - 02:50 PM.

[Fury♫]

Get your hearing checked?


I quite like the ScanSpeak Ring Rad's I've used in the passed... Not cheap, but damn nice. Had good top end detail, and stay composed at volume.
Granted I crossed them over at about 4k in a 3-way config.

[br85]

fury, on 07 July 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

Get your hearing checked?


I quite like the ScanSpeak Ring Rad's I've used in the passed... Not cheap, but damn nice. Had good top end detail, and stay composed at volume.
Granted I crossed them over at about 4k in a 3-way config.

It's not for daily use in a car anyway. I'm looking for something that will work in some studio monitors I'm looking at building. Granted, they won't need to go that loud very often, but when you're mixing things like drums pre-compression, there's some MASSIVE crests in there that might jump more than 30db above average signal level, and I want them to hold up to the abuse (in the sound quality AND mechanical/thermal limitation aspects).

4khz might be decent enough once the right waveguide is used. If I can get about an extra 12db of sensitivity gain between 1k - 5khz, that brings the theoretical acoustic equivalent xo point down to about 1khz or so. Might need a very complex filter at that stage though, but I'm looking at a $2500 - $3000 budget for drivers and box/waveguide materials (and I don't need xo components, the end user will be buying a high-end DEQX).

Edited by br85, 07 July 2010 - 03:06 PM.

[Fury♫]

I would be looking at a compression driver then, in a waveguide...
I'd be looking at a small compression driver with a phase plug, to give you response out past 20k.
There's a small BMS unit that i'd look at, or a small Celestion unit that QSC use in some of their speakers.

[Pulse-R]

MD330 esotar?
they maintaim composure up to 1kW peaks (on paper, at least)

besides, why do you need to hear up to 20kHz so loud? I'd think 18 is plenty.

[mrock]

If your after studio monitors, don't egven bother building them. The reason being is that the industry is used to product and know's what they sound like incase you are going to another studio. For Studio monitors you want the least fatiging speker. A Perfect example is a Tannoy reveal with the soft domes. An NS10 is also good, but slightly fatiging. The good thing about the NS10 is that your mixes sound the same any where, you just have to make sure you boosted the 5 k range in the mix as they have a natural peak. Also when you start hearing bass from them the mix will be messy. But year, just go around to stores with monitors, and try them out. Your budget should allow you to get some nice ones. Don't even bother building them. Check out the PMC range, or ATC as well.

[Big_Valven]

I'm afraid that won't cut it for Jeff, mrock.

Unfortunately though I think the biggest challenge (or more likely prohibitive factor) will be that anything that can reach those levels will sound like poo at normal listening levels, defeating the purpose of a studio monitor.

[mrock]

Another rule of the thumb. Always mix at normal listening levels. If you mix with the volume up really high, and then you go to eq it, compress... The mix will sound bad at normal listening levels. Alot of those monitors will do music at over 113 db, if that's what your worried about.

[br85]

fury, on 07 July 2010 - 04:17 PM, said:

I would be looking at a compression driver then, in a waveguide...
I'd be looking at a small compression driver with a phase plug, to give you response out past 20k.
There's a small BMS unit that i'd look at, or a small Celestion unit that QSC use in some of their speakers.

I'd use that BMS unit as a last resort, they guy I'm building them for specifically said "I don't want compression drivers" but he's not THAT stubborn, I'll just have to talk him into it. I'd sooner try to push his budget up by about $3000 and talk him into the Raven 3.2MMX ribbons. Those things (on paper AND by review) are to DIE for.

mrock, on 08 July 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

If your after studio monitors, don't egven bother building them. The reason being is that the industry is used to product and know's what they sound like incase you are going to another studio. For Studio monitors you want the least fatiging speker. A Perfect example is a Tannoy reveal with the soft domes. An NS10 is also good, but slightly fatiging. The good thing about the NS10 is that your mixes sound the same any where, you just have to make sure you boosted the 5 k range in the mix as they have a natural peak. Also when you start hearing bass from them the mix will be messy. But year, just go around to stores with monitors, and try them out. Your budget should allow you to get some nice ones. Don't even bother building them. Check out the PMC range, or ATC as well.

Well my client (makes me sound important ) has already got some Dynaudios that cost him around $3000 so it's hardly worth telling him to buy something already on the market for just a bit more money than he spent last time.

Big_Valven, on 08 July 2010 - 01:35 PM, said:

I'm afraid that won't cut it for Jeff, mrock.

Unfortunately though I think the biggest challenge (or more likely prohibitive factor) will be that anything that can reach those levels will sound like poo at normal listening levels, defeating the purpose of a studio monitor.

And I think that's always the case with studio monitors. It either sounds great really loud (Genelec) or at quieter volumes (Dynaudio). The purpose of this project is to build something that minimises the compromise. I'll be using 2 seas W22 magnesium 8"s for midbass duties (~90hz - 1200hz), and they should sound great at both quiet and much louder volumes, now I'm just trying to find a tweeter that can do the same. I REALLY want to use the R2904 scanspeak, but I'm just worried about its dynamic and distortion performance from ~1.8khz - 3khz (if it puts out on a flat baffle OK there, I have no qualms about using it down to 1k in the right waveguide)

mrock, on 08 July 2010 - 01:53 PM, said:

Another rule of the thumb. Always mix at normal listening levels. If you mix with the volume up really high, and then you go to eq it, compress... The mix will sound bad at normal listening levels. Alot of those monitors will do music at over 113 db, if that's what your worried about.

The guy I'm building these for is no rookie to mixing (he's probably done about a quarter of the productions you hear on triple J during primetime), I'll leave that part of it up to him. He likes the sound of the dynaudios, he just wants something with a few more guts (the smaller dyn monitors aren't that great below 400hz) and a less "clinical" but more "detailed" high end. Sounds like an oxymoron, I know, but I think I know what he's getting at.

I WOULD just point him in the direction of the Linkwitz Orion, but the studio he's about to move into doesn't allow him to put them far enough out from the walls, so we're doing box speakers, and that's that.

[muzzy66]

How about the Peerles HDS?

93dB sensitivity at 2.83v (5.6om re) should translate to about 91.5dB @ 1w/1m.

In theory:
1w = 91.5dB
2w = 94.5dB
4w = 97.5dB
8w = 100.5dB

In theory you should be able to hit 100db of as little as 10w input power.

The HDS extends right out to 20khz on axis (thought not quite flat). It's got exceptional distortion right down below 1.5khz, so 2.5kz should be no problem in that regard. Also plays down to about 2.5k response-wise, however it starts dropping below this.

Might be worth a look in.

[muzzy66]

P.s.

The R2904 Ring Radiator is NOT a good performer below 3khz in it's natural form. The D3004/6600 or D2904/7100 would be better options at those frequencies. Both extend out to 20khz no problems at all, but the 6600 plays down beyond 2khz while the 7100 starts to drop off at 3k.

The 7100 does have significantly higher sensitivity though - it's up about 3dB on the 6600.

Still, I'd probably say the HDS is the best fit overall.

Edited by muzzy66, 09 July 2010 - 09:46 PM.

[br85]

I'll definitely look into the HDS.

If the R2904's only work well down to 3k or so, I'd be hard pressed getting them down to 1.6k without a slight compression chamber in the waveguide, though I have heard of people successfully crossing the XT-25 at around 900hz (acoustic, not electronic) when the loading is good, I just don't know whether these sorts of speakers can go much above 95db without crapping themselves. The reason I like the idea of a ring instead of a dome is that the Frequency and Polar Response in a waveguide looks a little better. I wonder if the R3004 could be a contender. I'm just a bit iffy on the lower sensitivity.

Edited by br85, 09 July 2010 - 10:09 PM.

[mrock]

Why don't you use a P-audio or Beyma 12' or 8' inch coax with a fostex supertweeter? It would have high sensitivty, which means that it goes loud with no effort and you would have the upper high end covered with the supertweeter. Also, you don't have to worry about the driver integration with the tweeter as it is a coax. They work awesome for mixing as it is a single point source. I have heard the Paudio 15' coax, and it is the least fatiguing. It doesn't sound like a compression driver. So it's good to go all day with.

Edited by mrock, 12 July 2010 - 10:12 AM.