12 replies to this topic

[SleeperSaab]

I need a processor. Or a head unit with time delay. Or both. However, I'd also need a second job to pay for it.

Therefore, I want to do as much as I can to try and get some great SQ by trying to position the tweeters well.

I saw in an article for In Car Entertainment that Marty has suggested getting a big glob of blu-tak and trying the tweeters out in different spots. I think that's a great idea, but before I do that, I wonder if there has been any successes or experiences that might help with this.

Should the tweeters face the driver (of the car), face away, face the roof or rear of the car, or all of the above. Should they face each other, or do so with a small angle towards the driver...

Now, before anyone says it, I know every car is different, but I wonder what successes people have had with positioning. For example, pillar mount facing left to right versus pillar mount angled towards the cabin versus dash mount facing the windscreen, etc.

Also, there are many of us who don't want to go down the road of custom built pillars for whatever reason, so maybe angling the tweeters within specific areas will help to maximise the less desirable position.

[~Spyne~]

you're going to get 100 different response here.
you've already answered the question, every car is different. every install is different also. not to mention some methods work for some tweeters, while different tweeters work better with other methods.

as marty suggested, a big ball of blu-tac and enough slack in the speaker wire to move the tweeters about.

without the use of a processor, your best bet will be to try and get the tweeters as far away from you as possible (the very corners of the dash/windscreen, or the kick panels), this will generally reduce (though not eliminate) the PLD from driver to listener. Also try to get them as on-axis as possible (again, this may not work for some tweeters, nor for some installations where reflections mess with the dispersion of sound.

[Deadeye]

I was sitting in Pulse-R's car on saturday night and asked this exact question...

well more like "whats better.. tweeters facing each other? or facing the driver?"

his response was "what ever sounds best!"

Get a glob of blu-tac and experiment!!!!

It's the only way!

edit: even time-alignment and audio processing will not fix or improve bad speaker positioning!(citation needed!)
you do need to get what sounds best first... then build on that!

Edited by Deadeye, 28 February 2011 - 12:09 PM.

[SleeperSaab]

Okay, appreciate that every car is different.

I guess what I'm looking for is more about experiences.

Do the majority of people have them facing inwards toward each other, or toward the driver?


Personally, I need to mount them in the dash. I have a speaker well on the dash that's covered with a grill and I need to keep them in there for my "sleeper" look.

However, the hole is pretty deep (there were 3.5" drivers in there before). I feel I can get some flexibility in the way they face by building a custom housing for them that fits the space. The question is, do I try to face them towards the driver or toward each other. They currently face the windscreen, but the moveable face means that I can position them to bounce off the dash, or point in the general direction of the driver. Both sound a little harsh.

I think it's mostly the cross overs that's doing this, but I can't change that at the moment. The idea is to try to get the best out of them without spending money - and that means building a housing for them to sit in the dash.

Now, the blu-tak idea is sound, but difficult in a cavernous hole in the dash. Nor can I hold them both in place while I sit in the drivers seat. I guess I could hook up some sort of wire cage to experiement, but we're talking hours of work there. If I could get an idea of the main ways they could face, it would cut down a lot of the time to move them around.

For example, if most people find it works for them to face them at each other, I can rig something up to do that and then move the face plate around to try different angles. If people are finding that facing the driver, it's a different position altogether, but I still have some room to move.

Any thoughts in this direction?

To use an analogy, it's not asking which splits I should buy, but asking if people have spent around $500 on splits, which brand did they choose. Then I'd find the most common ones and audition them. Does that make more sense?

[muzzy66]

It doesnt only depend on the car, it depends on which tweeters you're using and what you're tryng to achieve.

Some tweeters have a strong rise in response up high, and mounting tweeters like this on axis (i.e. facing you) will lead to a sound which is harsh and uncomfortable...best to angle them away a little. Other tweeters roll off too soon and even on axis they won't plus much over 15khz...tweeters like this, you definately don't want to angle too far away from you otherwise you'll get no top end prescence.

Having tweeters facing each other on the dash (essentially 60 - 90 degrees off axis) is something I never recommend for two reasons - firstly you loose way to much top end detail and extension, secondly you get far too many reflection problems, leading to a sound that is dull and mushy along with messed up timing caused by the reflected waves interfering with the original waves, etc.

Then it also depends on what you're aiming for - if you are only going for a one seat setup (i.e.only care how it sounds to the driver) then angle your tweeters basedon appropriate FR characteristics of your tweeters. If you're aiming for a 2 seat setup (much be judged from both seats) then you need to consider more -you need to try and get the same angle from both tweeters from both sides of the car and in this case angling them to fire at the middle of the car (between the front seats) is often the best option.

There are just way too many variables to give a recommendation given such little initial information.

[muzzy66]

SleeperSaab, on 28 February 2011 - 12:29 PM, said:

To use an analogy, it's not asking which splits I should buy, but asking if people have spent around $500 on splits, which brand did they choose. Then I'd find the most common ones and audition them. Does that make more sense?

What if the more common ones are not necesarilly the best? What if the most common splits used are Pioneer, Clarion, Alpine and Kenwood? What if the best options are those from more speciliased brands thatare not well known, and hence not many people have?

Or to relate it back to this question, what if the vast majority of peole you ask have placed their tweeters based on convenience and looks rather then putting them in places that were well thought out for optimal sound?

[Deadeye]

most of the cars that i have sat in that have had the most impressive sound... Simons Pulsar, Marks Civic.. all had the tweeters facing you... or just a little bit off facing you... or directed to the middle of the cabin!... Actually I'm not 100% sure... because i had my eyes closed while listening to those systems...

Shiney has his on the dashboard firing upwards into the windscreen and he has great results!

just experiment!

as its been said in this thread, as well as all cars are different, all tweeters are different... hell.. even some peoples ears are different! eg: head height etc..

very soon i play on getting blutac and experimenting with my Morell's

[cm_ls1]

I quickly skimmed over these posts, and you said you wanted an opinion from peoples experiences?

What i found was that if you are using passive crossovers, the best position for the tweeters was over or around the mid/bass in the lower door, it keeps the phase relation of the two drivers in check, and it keeps the intensity of the two drivers equal, also less reflective surfaces to cause combing effect and other pitfalls.

The two biggest problems with mounting tweeters down there is ofcourse low stage (although aiming helps), and obstruction with legs etc

My opinion is if you want to run tweets up high its preferable to run active , which is what im doing next.

[Frankston Car Audio]

Sleeper, as everybody has infered, there are no "hard and fast" rules governing tweeters, or any type of speakers placement.

Your asking for advice on tweeter placement, but have not listed what speaker type's you are using.

If you have a 3way set, then the midrange is far more important to position correctly.. the tweeter still needs correct placement but fulfils a different role completely.

If you are wanting your vocal imaging and tonality to be "accurate", then you need to concentrate more on the midrange drivers. (2 or 3way)

Blu-Tac, hot glue and other temporary adhesives/baffles, will be your best friends in determining what setup works best in your car.

HTH

Mark

[SleeperSaab]

muzzy66, on 28 February 2011 - 12:32 PM, said:

Having tweeters facing each other on the dash (essentially 60 - 90 degrees off axis) is something I never recommend for two reasons...

Deadeye, on 28 February 2011 - 01:13 PM, said:

most of the cars that i have sat in that have had the most impressive sound... Simons Pulsar, Marks Civic.. all had the tweeters facing you...

cm_ls1, on 28 February 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

What i found was that if you are using passive crossovers, the best position for the tweeters was over or around the mid/bass in the lower door...

Okay, perfect. This is EXACTLY the sort of information I'm asking about.

I know that every car is different, every speaker is different, every sperm is sacred, every driver is different height and all that. I guess I just wanted a starting point and some personal experiences.

The best answer is to get a processor (I know that because that's what Marty always says ) but in reality, I can't do that. I can't go active yet either. So, I appreciate you guys putting it on the line give some extra information.

Also, I haven't mentioned the speakers I have because I don't think it makes that much of a difference. I mean, sure it does, but essentially, it still comes down to me testing different spots. But, I should have said that they are 2 way passive, though. And I have the woofer in the door. Sorry.


Oh and Muzzy, regarding the following...

Quote

What if the more common ones are not necesarilly the best? What if the most common splits used are Pioneer, Clarion, Alpine and Kenwood? What if the best options are those from more speciliased brands thatare not well known, and hence not many people have?

Or to relate it back to this question, what if the vast majority of peole you ask have placed their tweeters based on convenience and looks rather then putting them in places that were well thought out for optimal sound?

I get all that, but if I asked which car I should drive and most people recommended a Commodore, I could test drive it and decide that it's too big, too boring, too much in petrol costs or whatever, but at least I have a starting point. It's a lot better than just driving a bunch of cars to see what I like.


AND, I know people are also worried about covering their ass as well ("I tried what you said and it sucked" syndrome) but in the end I will probably end up with Morels that run active through a processor. I just can't start there due to experience and money. But, as I learn more (with the help of all you guys) I can start to work out what it is that I want and how to get there.

[Pulse-R]

I found with smaller tweeters in a 2-way set, that in the kicks with the woofers gives best imaging when on-axis.

i found with most larger tweeters that partly on-axis in the dash or A pillars, running active works best.

In my experience, morel tweeters seem to prefer off-axis mounting, using nearby surfaces to reflect the sound.

[SleeperSaab]

Okay, last night I was up until 1:30am playing with the tweeters. I took the whole dash apart to be able to change the position of the tweeters and built new mounting plates out of mdf to give them support and better positioning.

From all the info you've given me, I was able to spend a minimum of time actually moving them around to test. i have limited options due to the overall design I want, so it was great that I had the feedback to help narrow down some options.

I ended up poisitoning them on top of the dash, but slightly angled forward, with the movable top pointing at the car driver (on the left) and the further back but pointed slightly to the left of the driver (on the right).

The result is a much more rounded treble sound (very harsh before) and less distortion(I think due to the windscreen). I now have probably the best front stage I'm going to get out of my set up and overall it sounds great. i finally have the perfect set up for my car with my current components.

Thanks again for the advice and experiences, it saved me heaps of time and effort.

[muzzy66]

Glad to hear you got some positive results there