66 replies to this topic

[mad89]

Hey all...

Its been a little while since i've started a thread, and this topic came up in discussion a couple of weeks back, so thought it was worthy of some discussion.

How important is the source/head unit?

Now before we get into some technical discussion, lets consider a few things - these are just off the top of my head, feel free to add more and discuss the below:
* Nowadays, the majority of high end sound quality systems utilise a processor. A processor that often has input adjustment/filtering/levelling/whatever to flatten and 'clean up' the signal input from the likes of OEM sources and what not.
* After the processor, the sound is so far changed, that the 'original' integrity or 'quality' of the signal may be 'altered' in some way anyway, yes?
* We are now towards the end of the lifecycle of the humble CD - in more than 20 years of CD tuners, one would only assume that there would be no 'technological advances' in a CD transport/laser mechanism that reads the CD and sends the signal down the pre outs.
* As strictly a CD transport ONLY - could one also assume that given the above point, a reasonably priced (say sub-$300 CD player) 'should' easily compare to the likes of the purist SQ source units that are often in the thousands of dollars price bracket? Yes? No?
* These purist and pricy sources have high end internal components, uber SQ DACs, ADCs, external DC-DC converters etc, which distinguish these units from the cheaper ones, but how important are those items and are they noticeably 'better' when used in conjunction with a processor?

I guess the concluding question is - given the above points (and obviously many others), just how important is the quality of the source unit in today's SQ circles, given that the large majority of us would be only using it as a CD transport to a processor anyway?

Keeping all other variables the same - same amps, same processor, same speakers, same cabling, same deadening, same install - would the difference be between say an entry level, sub-$300 Alpine head unit and the sub-$4000 Alpine F#1 Status head unit. (Those two just used for example purposes)...

Discuss...

Edited by mad89, 14 November 2011 - 08:51 PM.

[perrin_07]

i noticed a difference straight away when i had a basic $150 kenwood cd player and upgraded to the alpine 9887. instantly it was louder/clearer and so noticable the second i turned it on. So im sold straight away on making sure i have a good source.

Edited by perrin_07, 14 November 2011 - 08:57 PM.

[Winno]

Just bare in mind that many head units have integrated processors and because of this, it may be very difficult to comment on their performance and a stand alone cd player receiver unless you can switch off the processing.

To be honest though, arguing about which head unit has the best processor and which has the best processor, DAC's, etc is moot.

Why?

Because it's difficult to separate each from the other.
Most people are going to buy a given head unit because it's the sum of many parts. Very few people indeed will buy a head unit (even a top end one like a Pioneer P99 or Clarion HX-D2, etc) simply because it has very good retrieval or processing or pre stages.
These are integrated units after all.

Perhaps the question should be, does the front end package make a difference?

The answer, as far as I'm concerned anyway, is a very resounding, 'Yes!'

Edited by Winno, 14 November 2011 - 09:19 PM.

[mad89]

Perrin, Steve, i agree too, dont get me wrong. Maybe this needs a bit more of a real world example...

Heres one, i currently use my trusty Alpine CDA-9835 (Alpines Flagship model circa 2004/05), but have recently been considering changing to a newer touch screen double DIN source in order to gain some multiple source/format capability and also BlueTooth etc - for arguments sake, lets say Pioneer's AVIC-F20BT or Alpines INA-W900E. All 3 mentioned here feature 4 volt preouts, and i'll be using it as a CD transport only, with all processing handled externally.

Now consider the points mentioned in the original post - would there be a difference? Better? Worse? Different? Maybe i should go buy a Nakamichi CD700 for $3k? Get my drift? lol

[jukebox]

you might wanna get some audio gear in your car before you worry about 3k source units... mr performance mods boy... lol

good topic, rick

[Fury♫]

Yes, any CD player should be able to read the 1's and 0's from a CD... So why fork out for a good one?

Because cheap units cut corners.
That 22uf capacitor may measure 26uf, because 20% tolerance is fine for a cheap CD player, but what if it's an output coupling capacitor, creating an earlier roll off?
That 5v regulator is putting out 6v, again because it's within 20% tolerance it's fine for a cheap CD player... it doesnt matter that it may be driving something that can't take the extra voltage, it'll just mean a shortened life span... which is fine for a cheap cd player...

Point is a cheap cd players will use lower tolerance (cheaper) components, which will alter the sound more so than a better unit.


pssst, i know of some f#1 status gear for sale

[frogslapper]

The difference in sound quality when i went from my alpine 9887/bit one to pioneer p99rs was amazing.
Never again will i use a external processor in less something out of this world comes out!!

[~Spyne~]

Poo in, poo out.
No amount of 'processing' will improve the fundamental quality of the input signal - if your headunit only has a frequency output range of 25hz-18khz, no amount of processing will be able to retrieve the missing information accurately, it's like saying you can "reclaim" the removed information from a compressed mp3 file. Sure it can guess, using an algorithm, but unless it has the original source material to compare against, all the processing is doing is guessing.
Same with lowering noisefloor, an algorithm might do a decent job of removing the background noise (ssshhhhhhh) in a system, but it could very well be removing some detail from the actual material, such as the decay of a cymbal.

[KARAFLA]

I agree with spyne.
Poo in poo out.

However.... There has to be a "poo" tolerance if your budget has a limit. Especially with the law of diminishing returns, let's say you replace your 1k alpine with a 3k nakamichi. Will it sound $2000 better? Personally, I doubt it however I am always willing to hear a differing opinion

[Big_Valven]

My input here apart from the obvious stuff is that the Pioneer P99RS is by far and away the best headunit I've listened to. I don't mean the processing abilities, or the looks, or the lossless playback abilities, I mean the sound it comes up with. Most will argue that you can't hear the difference between different high-end sources so I'll avoid that argument, but it is plain and clear to me and to others who have heard one that the noise floor and characteristics separate this unit from most if not all of it's competition. It is a defining headunit of this topic.

[sean]

My experiences with source units is that the difference from going from a factory HU or low-end CD player is like a high bit recorded mp3 compared to an original CD...

Personally I think it's a lot nicer to use a rare or upmarket source unit from a build quality perspective too in the same sort of way you get when you get to drive a rare or expensive car. Just the little differences like the Nak CD-700 has a glass LCD screen and metal facia etc.

[2LOUD2OLD]

does the source have any effect when using digital output to a processor?
not knowing anything about the inner workings is it safe to assume that exactly what is read is what is sent to an external processor?

just asking out of curiosity seeing as I am using my cd changer with optical out as my source, would i get an advantage using a higher end HU with optical out instead?

[Big_Valven]

I don't think it's safe to assume a digital output will be the same. CD transports and DSPs (ie volume control) all have varying degrees of jitter, etc.

[268669♫]

Find a bit perfect digital source> feed it into a processor (either onboard or not)> processor does the DAC> then into the amplification stage. Only one digital to analogue conversion keeps the signal the best your going to get. Better DACs, and processors and amps with low noise floor and higher quality components will give you a great signal.

I believe to many DAC to ADC to DAC conversions degrade the signal and have more chance for noise etc.

I believe thats why digital input processors and onboard processors are the ones that sound so good. P99 is onboard so one DAC, Alpine F#1 is digital input processor so one DAC, Pioneer ODR is the same. Nearly all top end cd players with processors (onboard or not) are digital all the way until the after the processing then the DAC outputs to the amp.

I dont like all these OEM source processors, as Spyne said, poo in poo out.

Ant

[muzzy66]

mad89, on 14 November 2011 - 09:16 PM, said:

Heres one, i currently use my trusty Alpine CDA-9835 (Alpines Flagship model circa 2004/05), but have recently been considering changing to a newer touch screen double DIN source in order to gain some multiple source/format capability and also BlueTooth etc - for arguments sake, lets say Pioneer's AVIC-F20BT or Alpines INA-W900E. All 3 mentioned here feature 4 volt preouts, and i'll be using it as a CD transport only, with all processing handled externally.

Now consider the points mentioned in the original post - would there be a difference? Better? Worse? Different? Maybe i should go buy a Nakamichi CD700 for $3k? Get my drift? lol

From my experiences, I'm going to say yes.

I've changed from head unit to head unit, and I've always found that different head units (even without processing in use) do sound different when all else is kept the same.

Personally my preference thus far has been Clarion units. I'm not sure what it is about them, but both of the Clarion units I used (DXZ786USB and HX-D2) seemed to have a very smooth and natural tone to them with not a lot of colouration. Alpine have been my most disliked units - there seems to be a certain character to Alpine units (a specific distortion profile and tonal balance) that sounds unnatural to me and generally rubs me the wrong way. The Eclipse CD8455 wasn't bad, but it still didn't seem to have the same clean and smooth character I've had from Clarion units. Pioneer units I also quite liked, but I only owned one and it was a LONG time ago.

Whether there would be any improvement in sound from an Alpine 9835 such as yours to a touch-screen Alpine unit I'm not so sure - I think with touch screen Multimedia units you're really paying more for the screen and the extra wow factor then anything else and I don't think they really provide anything in the way of pure sound quality that your regular Alpine wouldn't. Going up to something like a P99 or a HX-D2 on the other hand is a different story.

When I changed from my Alpine 9813 (not too dissimilar to the 9835) to the HX-D2 the change in sound was immediately noticed. Even before I got everything tuned in, there were significant improvments in definition, stage size and overall tonal ballance that absolutely blew my mind. I wasn't convinced I would hear any difference at all, and bought the unit purely for the added processing power, so when I heard how much better it souded it really caught me by surprise. There was a particular character to the sound that I was constantly trying to get rid of, but it just wouldn't go away - I couldn't pick what it was, but it was almost like a general muddiness or something. When I changed units over I realised it was the Alpine the entire time that was causing this, and I've picked up that same 'signature' to some degree on just about every Alpine system I've listened to.

Back in the VERY old days my brother also wen tthrough many units, and in the end ended up with a classic Clarion model (back when they had metal face plates). He also mentioned at the time that he thought the Clarion was the best sounding unit he used, and there was no real processing in the units in those days.

I'm sure there are people who would argue that the difference would be minor and if I hadn't heard it for myself I'd probably agree. In my personal opinion I think going to something like a P99 or a HX-D2 would most likely give you an improvement that you woud immediately appreciate, but that's merely my opinion.