59 replies to this topic

[Sorin-Andrei]

The new 2012 format is the product of many hours of discussion and research - we welcome your feedback in this thread.

Below is abit of an explanation behind the culture and ideas that lead to the update to our 2012 format.

The classes have been built on our understanding of the variety of Competitors that come along to local SPL competitions. It’s our attempt to build categories that will be fun and exciting for all people to compete in, and hopefully come back time and time again.


Competitor Classification - Novices and Informed Beginners
Competiton categories aimed at Total Novices and Informed Beginners: Novice + Intermediate

• Has some form of aftermarket/upgraded stereo system in their car
  
• Installed stereo themselves/friend/store
  
• Little/no time spent tuning/upgrading stereo since initial installation
  
• Has probably not gone out of their way to install a stereo for the purpose of competing regularly
  
• Most likely purchased their equipment from a large chain store or second hand
  
• Most likely unaware of RMS power capability of their system
  
• Has not had their system SPL measured since initial installation
  
• Little/no awareness of installation safety/reliability conventions
  
• Most likely will not do over 140db
  
• Most likely will not compete in another event
  
• Very little understanding of structured audio competition.
  
• Totally unaware of competition conventions/format
  
• FAQ:
  
  • What kinda music should I play?
    
  • Is my system worth entering?
    
  • What do I do?
    
  • Who am I against?
    
  • Can I get that score written down?
    
  • How do you measure it?

Competitor Classification – Enthusiasts
Competiton categories aimed at Enthusiasts: Advanced + Advanced Mod

• Has upgraded most components in their stereo system from the original configuration
  
• Multiple upgrades done by themselves/friend/store
  
• Increased time spent tuning/upgrading stereo since initial installation
  
• Has gone the next level to install a competition-grade stereo
  
• Most likely special ordered competition-grade equipment or purchased second hand
  
• Highly aware of RMS power capability of their system
  
• Has had their system SPL measured regularly since initial installation
  
• Full awareness of installation safety/reliability conventions
  
• High potential of doing over 140db
  
• Likely to compete in another event with improvements/changes
  
• Proactively shifting and adjusting things
  
• Ask less questions, do more and learn for themselves
  
• Start to build to the limits of the rules
  
• Want to compete at the pointy end of the competition
  
• Daily driving and constantly tweaking their system
  
• Will often build specifically for a comp
  
• FAQ:
  
  • What will happen if I do this?
    
  • Can I get away this?
    
  • Who else is coming? (social aspect)
    
  • What’s my next change?
    
  • What’s left in my arsenal of equipment?

Competitor Classification – Experts and Professionals
Competiton categories aimed at Experts and Professionals: Expert SPL/GP

• Has upgraded most components in their stereo system from the original configuration – possibly a hobby/career installer
  
• Multiple upgrades done by themselves/friend/store
  
• Large amount of time spent tuning/upgrading stereo since initial installation
  
• Only competes with competition-grade stereo
  
• Most likely special ordered competition-grade equipment or purchased second hand – may have industry support
  
• Highly aware of RMS power capability of their system
  
• Has had their system SPL measured regularly since initial installation
  
• Full awareness of installation safety/reliability conventions
  
• High potential of doing over 150db
  
• Likely to compete in another event with improvements/changes
  
• Own a car specifically for competition
  
• More likely to share knowledge than ask questions
  
• People look up to them more, aspire to build to that level
  
• Industry vehicles – show and demo cars
  
• Lots of modification, questionable roadworthiness
  
• They generally show up fully aware of scores and what they will and won’t do
  
• Very interested in who’s turning up – larger social aspect
  
• Strong interest in their competitive standings, rankings and “bragging rights”
  
• FAQ:
  
  • Who’s turning up?
    
  • Can I get a powerpoint (or more)?
    
  • Is there some shade and a place to sit?
    
  • Where can I park the car?
    
  • Where do I put the trailer?

Edited by Sorin-Andrei, 13 January 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[~Samuel~]

Well these rules have killed traditional burp style cars, music only and averaged over 30 seconds.

Interesting to impose a woofer limitation in a similar fashion to DB drags.

"-Max 2 batteries – one in stock location and other must be secured anywhere else in the car." So what about someone with two upfront batteries?

"-If a hatch/wagon, must be below tailgate window line" what about Vans? Can that box be full height?

Why is Novice and Intermediate "any Vehicle Type" yet the more advanced classes are all cars? Where do commercial vehicles fit into this?

"must be musical" very very subjective when it comes to bass music, who determines this? There is talk about someone using a modified track in SA right now, essentially a song with tones added in during the track.

"-Vehicle must average above 150db during runs" so if a car is entered in Expert 150+ then does not meet that limit it is bumped down into Expert?

I worry the rules are too vague in their wording and some points need clarification. Not a bad starting point though

Edited by ~Samuel~, 25 November 2011 - 04:56 PM.

[KSR]

I like the classes, there seems to be a reasonably good number of them to cover most competitors. The points Sam has brought up are valid. I think burp cars must be catered for in one or a couple of classes, maybe the upper classes can allow tones or music at the discresion of the competitor? I prefer these rules to those of bass battle as I feel they cater for both novices and seasoned competitors...

[Big_Valven]

I've spoken with Sorin today but I'm also going to add my feedback here in order to keep it in writing, and in one place. A few points;

• No tones at all in any classes? That really does seem to exclude half the serious competition. Street beating and groundpounders are great but isn't excluding tones 'dumbing down' a bit and excluding serious dedicated competition?
  
• A few of the rules seem a bit 'upside down.' Ie peak hold on novice cars and 30 second average on pro cars? Novice is where you get street beating and daily cars, pro cars, even groundpounders are set up to use gear at it's limit, so peak scoring is much more relevant at the pro end.
  
• Some of the classing rules seem a bit redundant. Is there really relevance to a 2 battery rule when power is capped at 1500rms and you don't even have to average over 30 seconds?
  Why split the pro level cars on scores? Wouldn't it be more relevant in lower classes? There are many better criteria to split pro level cars depending on their intended direction, ie walls / nowall, tones / music which encourage better competition.
  If you make Novice too competitive by allowing experienced people with a 1500w amp and a DDZ12" to compete in some mental enclosure, newcomers will be scared away. There isn't really anything conclusive to prevent this happening.
  
• 
  
• Definitions:
  -Idling - what if someone tweaks to 2000rpm idle and way more alternator current as a result? How are you going to judge if someone's squeezing the throttle a bit during a run and make a conclusive call?
  -16v. Engine on / off? Float or under load? What if a competitor beats down to 15.8v before measurement then charges it up before a run? How and where does it get measured?
  -big amps. Where do you draw the line? Who's interpretation of 'big amps?' are you going to google each amp before a comp to check power ratings? What if it's a series 2 which makes more power and you googled a series one? What if an amp is running below rated impedance? What if someone enters a crazy 8 with a 2KW amp putting out 300w at 8 ohms - would they be bumped because it's a 'big amp?
  -Tailgate window line / window line. What's the difference and how is it judged? String line? eye? Spirit level? Where do utes fit in?
  -Structural metal... you can remove metal without it being structural. How is that defined? Who has say and what if they're wrong?
  -B pillar. Again, string rule? how's it judged?
  -Music. Define musical? What about chopped and screwed? What about remixes? How do you conclusively judge if the track is commercially available?

I realise I have completely pulled it apart and prodded at the gizzards with a stick, but it's useful if you want a watertight format which will last for years...

The basics are to provide a welcoming experience for newcomers, and a clear, supportive pathway to more competitive classes, also accommodating pro level entrants who can specialise with their builds, inherently supporting more high level dedicated builds and bigger scores. My concern is that there are a few criteria in there which in some ways hinder both ends of the scene.

As an aside, the clearer and simpler you can afford to make the rules, the less work it is to enter cars, scrutinise them, and class them appropriately. There are plenty of points in here which would make more work for the organisers instead of less. Alternative classing criteria could reduce your work and clarify for competitors - less suck it and see mentality, relying on judges' discretion especially in the higher classes for workable judgements and classing.

Perhaps an additional mediation with competitors is the best way to get a win-win outcome?

Credit must be given however for the work that's gone into it so far and the analysis that's happened to get there. The class naming particularly is a big improvement.

Edited by Big_Valven, 25 November 2011 - 06:00 PM.

[Dean the EX Grant]

G'day

I have had a chance to go through the classings/rules and all in all I think they are pretty good, though it does seem now that MEASA has gone away from dB comps to Bass battle comps for those will bigger builds and as such will really be handicapping some people almost right out of competing.

One thing I would mention is that I don't think having the jump in expert set at 150dB to be the right thing, how many cars in SA can do 150dB?? now the real question needs to be how many cars in SA can average 150+dB for 30sec or more?

By doing this I think MEASA is not encouraging people with bigger systems to get louder,
Using my car for an example it peaks at lets say 153dB....

It is unlikely that I would average over 150dB for 30sec so when I'm in qulifying I will make sure I don't go over 150dB so that I stay in the lower class, what this means is that spectators and novice competitors at a MEASA event will never see my car do over a high 140s...

My thoughts are this will go part way to losing the excitment and what it will do is create a bottle neck at the top of expert between two or three cars and everyone else in expert struggling to keep up.

I thought this years classes was pretty close to correct with maybe the need to add one more for total begginers so maybe I'm bias, with the new classes I can see the higher end competitors striving to be the best of what should be a lower class.

Maybe if the expert class was divided at 145dB that would be difrent and more even across the board but I guess after a year of 150 will know for sure.

Edited by Dean the EX Grant, 25 November 2011 - 08:25 PM.

[Marvey]

Great feed back guys

who eles has some input

Can we get some ideas on how to fix the not so good bits?

What’s your preferred way to check the window line?

Which bits do you like?

I love the new class names we should keep them

I’m not 100% on woofer limits our car limits worked ok this year just needed some work
is everone happy with the woofer groups?

[Dean the EX Grant]

"AVERAGED OVER 30 SECONDS with qualifiers and eliminations"


Can we please get the meaning of this clarifed.

Also forgetting what car I have but talking about me as a person, would I be considered a Enthusist or an Expert? remembering I have no industry experiance, and have competed in a total of about 10 sound off comps or less.

Edited by Dean the EX Grant, 25 November 2011 - 08:32 PM.

[Big Drew]

I understand the whole "average over 30 seconds" thing I just don't think that it has an advantage over the peak hold in pure spl terms. For a groundpounding music system, sure. But a system built for maximum spl to not be able to use tones AND have to average as opposed to peak hold I think is a mistake.

I think the way it was done at the autobarn show was a step in the right direction. Pro SPL for tones and PRO GP for music.

Averages for a musical system seem to make slightly more sense.

This is more or less an outsiders view due to my minimal involvement so far in the SPL competition scene.

[Sorin-Andrei]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys - keep it coming as we are still wanting to make changes to it before we finalise them and set up the 2012 event calendar.

Here goes my best attempt to deal with the queries we've had:

Quote

Well these rules have killed traditional burp style cars, music only and averaged over 30 seconds.

They don't have to - if you guys want to see burp cars in the higher classes, tell us where they best belong and we'll go from there.

Quote

Interesting to impose a woofer limitation in a similar fashion to DB drags.

The aim here was to try and create afew more classes for Novices to compete in - since Inexperienced (and often first time) competitors make up around 70% of our entrants throughout the season, we wanted to create a couple of formats where they could compete against each other on a more level playing field. We didn't feel that putting them all into one category based on their cars was going to be the appropriate de-lineator for them to understand and be attracted to.

Quote

Max 2 batteries – one in stock location and other must be secured anywhere else in the car

Good point - why tell people where they can and can't mount batteries? If they're secured and safe then they can run them wherever. Will definitely look at this one for change.

Quote

If a hatch/wagon, must be below tailgate window line" what about Vans? Can that box be full height?

Quote

Tailgate window line / window line. What's the difference and how is it judged? String line? eye? Spirit level? Where do utes fit in?

To my knowledge, all Australian passenger vehicles need to have an ADR approved rear window - this includes vans as well - they would need to pass a visual window line inspection before being able to compete in any class other than Expert. The tailgate window line would be measured by putting a spirit level on top of the highest point of the sub box, then the judge would stand behind the vehicle with the rear hatch/tailgate closed and check if they can physically see the base of the spirit level. If the box can be seen below the base of the spirit level while looking at eye-level with the bottom of the tailgate, than the box would be deemed above the tailgate window line. If rear windows are tinted to the point where we can't see the sub box inside the car, we may need to look at other means of measuring the boxes height though, haven't thought that far ahead yet.

Quote

Why is Novice and Intermediate "any Vehicle Type" yet the more advanced classes are all cars? Where do commercial vehicles fit into this?

The first two are merely wording - almost any vehicle type can compete in any class, with the exception of 2-door cars with no rear seats (CRX, Z32, Utes, commercial Vans). Our thinking is that any car that only has no c-pillar and only 1 row of seats would compete in Advanced Mod (below window line) or Expert class.

Quote

"must be musical" very very subjective when it comes to bass music, who determines this? There is talk about someone using a modified track in SA right now, essentially a song with tones added in during the track.

Quote

Music. Define musical? What about chopped and screwed? What about remixes? How do you conclusively judge if the track is commercially available?

You're right about the whole "music" situation being a contentious one - our thought was that as long as the track is not merely a sine wave alone, it would be deemed musical. Is there a better way though? Should the whole "music" thing be made a non-issue at Advanced and higher levels?

Edited by Sorin-Andrei, 26 November 2011 - 12:51 AM.

[Sorin-Andrei]

Quote

"-Vehicle must average above 150db during runs" so if a car is entered in Expert 150+ then does not meet that limit it is bumped down into Expert?

See below

Quote

I think burp cars must be catered for in one or a couple of classes, maybe the upper classes can allow tones or music at the discresion of the competitor?

See below

Quote

No tones at all in any classes? That really does seem to exclude half the serious competition. Street beating and groundpounders are great but isn't excluding tones 'dumbing down' a bit and excluding serious dedicated competition?

See below

Quote

it does seem now that MEASA has gone away from dB comps to Bass battle comps for those will bigger builds and as such will really be handicapping some people almost right out of competing.

See below

Quote

My thoughts are this will go part way to losing the excitment and what it will do is create a bottle neck at the top of expert between two or three cars and everyone else in expert struggling to keep up.

This is obviously one of the biggest contention points - to be honest, the idea of asking our competitors to compete with averaged scores is still something we haven't fully refined yet, and it's something we can change if you guys think there's a better way to really test a system's prowess - also keep in mind we're trying to get our biggest builds to also have a great show aspect to the competition - we can't deny that watching a car do a 155db burp for 3 seconds is not going to be entertaining, and can sometimes be anti-climactic after the buildup that often comes with bringing a big walled car into the lanes for spectators to watch. What would you guys prefer to see at the top level?

Edited by Sorin-Andrei, 26 November 2011 - 12:57 AM.

[Sorin-Andrei]

Quote

Some of the classing rules seem a bit redundant. Is there really relevance to a 2 battery rule when power is capped at 1500rms and you don't even have to average over 30 seconds?

Good point - as with Sam's suggestion regarding batteries, maybe a battery limit doesn't really make sense? We will definitely look at this one for potential change.

Quote

Why split the pro level cars on scores? Wouldn't it be more relevant in lower classes? There are many better criteria to split pro level cars depending on their intended direction, ie walls / nowall, tones / music which encourage better competition.

Would people prefer a 140db limit for Novice as opposed to a woofer limit? Say if we let anyone compete with any number of subs (1500w limit) in the Novice category, and then point them towards the Intermediate category at the next round, would this be a better separator than subs?

Quote

Idling - what if someone tweaks to 2000rpm idle and way more alternator current as a result? How are you going to judge if someone's squeezing the throttle a bit during a run and make a conclusive call?

Excellent point and not one we'd considered - maybe having no limit on idle speed or voltage at the Advanced and Expert level is the better way to go - will talk to the guys about changing that one.

Quote

16v. Engine on / off? Float or under load? What if a competitor beats down to 15.8v before measurement then charges it up before a run? How and where does it get measured?

Since the Novice and Intermediate categories can't run engines on, voltage is somewhat of a moot point. DbDrags uses a 14v limit but maybe we don't need one provided the Novice and Intermediate competitors are using 12v batteries?

Quote

-big amps. Where do you draw the line? Who's interpretation of 'big amps?' are you going to google each amp before a comp to check power ratings? What if it's a series 2 which makes more power and you googled a series one? What if an amp is running below rated impedance? What if someone enters a crazy 8 with a 2KW amp putting out 300w at 8 ohms - would they be bumped because it's a 'big amp?

Big amps - the idea with this was that if a competitor has an amp that is rated at 1500wrms 4ohm, 2500wrms 2ohm, 4000wrms 1ohm, they would not be able to compete in Novice or Intermediate category regardless of impedance they're running it at. We wanted to raise the allowed power of last year's Novice classes to 1500wrms plus remove the need to check wired impedances like last year. This method also potentially removes the need to check both the impedance or look up power ratings for higher power amps in these categories. In effect it's aimed to make scrutineering simpler - is there a smarter and simpler way to do this though?

Quote

-Structural metal... you can remove metal without it being structural. How is that defined? Who has say and what if they're wrong?

Good call on this one - our take was that any floor cut is considered removing structural metal. Along with that, any removal of metal from the vehicle to accommodate stereo equipment is considered removing structural metal. If non-floor metal has been removed but the space serves no purpose to create space for stereo equipment, this space would need to retain the factory interior skin - for example, Bobo removed a piece of metal in the rear left quarter panel of the wagon - this does not house any batteries or anything, so he needs to reinstall the factory interior skin before being able to compete in anything other than Expert class.

Quote

B pillar. Again, string rule? how's it judged?

A string is placed between the b-pillars inside the door jambs of the front doors. It would then be run up and down the full height of the door jamb. If the string touches any part of the sub enclosure it has failed the string test. This excludes anything other than the sub enclosure - woofer surrounds, motors, cabling and other stereo equipment do not need to comply to a string test.

Edited by Sorin-Andrei, 26 November 2011 - 01:06 AM.

[Big_Valven]

Sorin-Andrei, on 26 November 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

This is obviously one of the biggest contention points - to be honest, the idea of asking our competitors to compete with averaged scores is still something we haven't fully refined yet, and it's something we can change if you guys think there's a better way to really test a system's prowess - also keep in mind we're trying to get our biggest builds to also have a great show aspect to the competition - we can't deny that watching a car do a 155db burp for 3 seconds is not going to be entertaining, and can sometimes be anti-climactic after the buildup that often comes with bringing a big walled car into the lanes for spectators to watch. What would you guys prefer to see at the top level?

If you have a good think about what it involves, 30 second averaged scores on some of the high level groundpounders OR SPL cars is an unrealistic requirement. Can you imagine trying to do that in Siddy and score decently? Your expert class scores - ie the big ones - will nosedive. Do we really want the highest scores in the state to suffer because we want to put on 'more of a show?' Does that do justice to why we're here in the first place?

[Sorin-Andrei]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with that last post Callum - maybe we need to leave the Expert classes where they were with simple Expert GP and Expert SPL categories as opposed to trying to get too tricky. We want to keep pushing the boundaries of both Musical and SPL cars, and so many of you were happy with the highest categories where they were last year - will put this up for change with the others asap.



Ok that's my attempt to address everyone's ideas tonight - Sam would be proud, i've managed to push through my grandpa wall at 11pm and it's currently 1:45am.

[Dean the EX Grant]

Sorin-Andrei, on 26 November 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

This is obviously one of the biggest contention points - to be honest, the idea of asking our competitors to compete with averaged scores is still something we haven't fully refined yet, and it's something we can change if you guys think there's a better way to really test a system's prowess - also keep in mind we're trying to get our biggest builds to also have a great show aspect to the competition - we can't deny that watching a car do a 155db burp for 3 seconds is not going to be entertaining, and can sometimes be anti-climactic after the buildup that often comes with bringing a big walled car into the lanes for spectators to watch. What would you guys prefer to see at the top level?

I like the idea of averages for the bigger builds but in my opinion if I had total say I would consider for the two expert classes setting the divider at 145.

Rather then having the "experts" setting their own average which I think could get confusing to spectators keeping up with who has when average target you could have the first target in expert set at 145dB where that is the target people try to average as close as possible to, the next group just go for the loudest average they can over 145.

Truth is there are no cars in SA that are going to average over 150 but there would be some that do average over 145, I think this would make it a lot fairer for all "experts" and it would also encourage the bigger builds to really push their systems for higher numbers rather then padding to stay under the current 150 mark and dominating that class.

[Big_Valven]

Sorin-Andrei, on 26 November 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

Since the Novice and Intermediate categories can't run engines on, voltage is somewhat of a moot point. DbDrags uses a 14v limit but maybe we don't need one provided the Novice and Intermediate competitors are using 12v batteries?

Big amps - the idea with this was that if a competitor has an amp that is rated at 1500wrms 4ohm, 2500wrms 2ohm, 4000wrms 1ohm, they would not be able to compete in Novice or Intermediate category regardless of impedance they're running it at. We wanted to raise the allowed power of last year's Novice classes to 1500wrms plus remove the need to check wired impedances like last year. This method also potentially removes the need to check both the impedance or look up power ratings for higher power amps in these categories. In effect it's aimed to make scrutineering simpler - is there a smarter and simpler way to do this though?

Good call on this one - our take was that any floor cut is considered removing structural metal. Along with that, any removal of metal from the vehicle to accommodate stereo equipment is considered removing structural metal. If non-floor metal has been removed but the space serves no purpose to create space for stereo equipment, this space would need to retain the factory interior skin - for example, Bobo removed a piece of metal in the rear left quarter panel of the wagon - this does not house any batteries or anything, so he needs to reinstall the factory interior skin before being able to compete in anything other than Expert class.

In Novice and Intermediate, there isn't actually any voltage rules at the moment...

In my opinion, why not restrict every class except the expert classes to running a power system which does not read higher than 14v with a DC multimeter, with the engine off, immediately following their run? (Obviously measured only if there is question as to the voltage of the car. The great thing is that if you write it this way into the rules it's very unlikely anyone's going to try it in the first place.) Even Australia wide there aren't a huge number of cars running high voltage systems, and they're all right at the top of competition. I specified engine off since float voltage is most relevant since many high voltage systems are separate to the car's other electrics and are often charged with mains chargers. Engine on ruling separates this too much.

In my opinion, the best way to avoid the legwork with trying to enforce 'big amps' versus 'small amps' is to avoid writing that sort of thing into the rules... it's gotta be the most contentious, time consuming and tricky topics in the rules no matter how it's approached. I mean; cars can be classed/separated any of the following ways:

• Amplifier power
  
• Battery capacity
  
• Battery location
  
• Woofer size
  
• Woofer count
  
• Box size
  
• Box location
  
• Wall vs Box
  
• Tuning - content played (burps vs music)
  
• Vehicle body style
  
• Nominal system voltage
  
• dB scores
  
• Competition experience

My question is that surely some of those qualifiers can sensibly replace the need to go by lowest rated impedances on a range of thousands of amplifiers on the market and the need to be able to find out about potentially any one of them at short notice? In my opinion, the two most suitable ones are scores, and experience. Woofer size capping, even combined with power capping, will still allow an experienced competitor to use a top-end woofer to completely dominate novice classes and essentially shut out newcomers from being competitive. I am sure many of us could make a single high end 10" go louder with 1500w than say a noob with two US audio 15s in sealed prefab boxes, yet the noob gets bumped from novice into a category where they're among even louder setups. This isn't really encouraging the 70% newcomer content to stick around for future comps, is it?

With a suitable score cap (ie 140dB) it also provides encouragement for a newcomer to realise potential in their system and receive recognition when they get louder. Which is likely to be more satisfying - getting kicked out of a class designed for newcomers because your woofers are apparently too big then being crushed in intermediate, or winning novice after a few competitions because you've got to a score which is considered to be a 'properly loud car' by the organisation holding the competitions? Putting you in a class which then encourages you to remain competitive among the next rung of competitiors?

So, my opinion is that Novice should be a class ONLY for those who have never competed in a higher class; and that after scoring 140.0dB or higher you compete in Intermediate at the next competition. Still leaves plenty of room for experienced guys to play around in Intermediate, the classing between novice and intermediate isn't that much different otherwise.

I agree with Dean that "Expert SPL" and "Expert Groundpounder" would be a very fitting way to class the top level cars, with similar limitations to what was run at the last competition. There was no mistaking who went where, and the classes were more or less tailored to the vehicle and setup being entered. Granted the other classes were a bit wonky, the top ones seemed to mesh quite well.

I think seat / pillar / window lines are spot on with those clarifications (always worth adding into the rulebook) as are rulings as to which classes engine can be run / can't be run. I do figure though that if the engine's running, giving it some revs is what actually offers the advantage, so there might not be much need to specify idling anyway - removing another point which would need careful scrutiny, and allowing the class differences (ie engine off vs engine on) to offer a genuine advantage for making the different ruling.

Keep up the good work It's good discussion and I think we're all on the same page that we're here to be constructive about it all.

Sorin-Andrei, on 26 November 2011 - 01:18 AM, said:

Ok that's my attempt to address everyone's ideas tonight - Sam would be proud, i've managed to push through my grandpa wall at 11pm and it's currently 1:45am.

I'm amazed and proud