28 replies to this topic

[LOEURO]

Hi Guys

I currently have got Dynaudio front end 2 x Esotar 110 tweeters and 2 x Esotar 650 and was wondering about a couple of questions with powering them.

I have a Digital Designs C4 amp currently running them with an Audison Bit One processor in place and my thoughts are to change over to the ARC Audio SE 4200, do you guys think this will make a massive difference??

Secondly I'm thinking of adding the Esotar 430 aswell to give the complete 3 way setup which will mean ill need to get 2 x Arc Audio amps, do you think the 4" speakers will make a bigger sound stage difference??

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers All

[Fury♫]

Changing amplifiers will make a small difference.

Adding a dedicated midrange (ie: the e430) and having it installed correctly (as well as having all other drivers installed correctly) will make a big difference to the sound.

Your soundstage will be largely determined by where your speakers are placed in your car, as well as what processing you have available (ie: time alignment).

I would highly recommend a 3-way front stage set up for flexibility, but ultimately it's going to come down to where you can install all drivers and how you can integrate them together.

Where were you looking at installing all the drivers?

[LOEURO]

My 650s and 110s are already installed the 650s have there own dedicated kicks and the 110s are in the stock location behind the door trim.

Im thinking of moving the tweeters up to the A-Pillars and putting the 430s in the stock tweeter location.

( Photos of my install are in the Show off my ride section )

Marty from FHRX installed the speakers

My Ride is a 95 BMW 318is

[Damon]

Given that both amplifiers make within 0.5dB of the same output 100WRMS versus 110WRMS per channel) and you are applying all signal processing via the Audison processor there should be zero sound quality difference between the two unless for some reason you are clipping either amplifier during playback.

[muzzy66]

LOEURO, on 04 January 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

My 650s and 110s are already installed the 650s have there own dedicated kicks and the 110s are in the stock location behind the door trim.

Im thinking of moving the tweeters up to the A-Pillars and putting the 430s in the stock tweeter location.

In this case I would probably say three way won't be a massive benefit. To make the most of a three way setup, having optimal positioning and setup is critical. The biggest benefits of 3-way are:

1. The ability to use a smaller midrange driver, which hence allows you to place it closer to the tweeter and more on axis (better integration and permits a higher crossover)
2. The ability to use a stronger dedecated midbass driver

By placing the tweeter in the Pillars and the mids off axis in the doors you are going to have:
1. Significant difference in path lengths between the mid and tweeter, removing the benefit of integration
2. Heavilly off axis driver, removing the benefit of a higher crossover
3. Same midbass, eliminating the potential benefit of an upgraded midbass driver

In your particular circumstances, you would (IMHO) get more gain by mounting your midbass driver further on axis (if they aren't already). If they are, then you will probably get minimal gain by switching to 3-way. Imperfect integration of yet another crossover point may even make it sound worrse.

As for the amps, I've not heard the DD so it's hard to comment on the difference. I personally don't care what anyone says, I maintain that different amps do sound different even at lower volumes, and even if they have the same output capabilities. If we had such thing as perfect amplifiers which were capable of amplifying a signal without adding any colouration then maybe this would not necessarilly be the case, but sadly we don't..and as long as that's the the case different amps are going to continue to add their own sonic character to the sound. Whether the ARC will actually sound better is another matter altogether..that's something I can't answer. It could depend on a number of things like your personal taste, and how the sonic characteristics of the amps interact with that of the speakers and the rest of the system.

Hope this helps!

Edited by muzzy66, 05 January 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[LOEURO]

Damon, on 05 January 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

Given that both amplifiers make within 0.5dB of the same output 100WRMS versus 110WRMS per channel) and you are applying all signal processing via the Audison processor there should be zero sound quality difference between the two unless for some reason you are clipping either amplifier during playback.

Thanks Damon

I understand that the 100wrms vs 110wrms is minimal gain but i would be interested to hear your thoughts on THD and simply better build quality and sound output from the ARC amp ??

[LOEURO]

muzzy66, on 05 January 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

In this case I would probably say three way won't be a massive benefit. To make the most of a three way setup, having optimal positioning and setup is critical. The biggest benefits of 3-way are:

1. The ability to use a smaller midrange driver, which hence allows you to place it closer to the tweeter and more on axis (better integration and permits a higher crossover)

So you think i should mount the Tweeter and 4" Midbass in the A-Pillar for optimal on axis results??

2. The ability to use a stronger dedecated midbass driver

By placing the tweeter in the Pillars and the mids off axis in the doors you are going to have:
1. Significant difference in path lengths between the mid and tweeter, removing the benefit of integration
2. Heavilly off axis driver, removing the benefit of a higher crossover
3. Same midbass, eliminating the potential benefit of an upgraded midbass driver

In your particular circumstances, you would (IMHO) get more gain by mounting your midbass driver further on axis (if they aren't already). If they are, then you will probably get minimal gain by switching to 3-way. Imperfect integration of yet another crossover point may even make it sound worrse.

As for the amps, I've not heard the DD so it's hard to comment on the difference. I personally don't care what anyone says, I maintain that different amps do sound different even at lower volumes, and even if they have the same output capabilities. If we had such thing as perfect amplifiers which were capable of amplifying a signal without adding any colouration then maybe this would not necessarilly be the case, but sadly we don't..and as long as that's the the case different amps are going to continue to add their own sonic character to the sound. Whether the ARC will actually sound better is another matter altogether..that's something I can't answer. It could depend on a number of things like your personal taste, and how the sonic characteristics of the amps interact with that of the speakers and the rest of the system.

I think i have to agree with you in regards to different amps do sound completely different from one another, I'm just wondering if updating the amps is a complete waist of time and money??

Hope this helps!

[LOEURO]

Thanks so much for reply fury, Damon and Muzzy66 greatly appreciated, I'm really looking for ways to improve staging, depth, sound quality as i know my Dynaudio Esotar2 sounds amazing ( To me that is ) and wanted more understanding and thoughts before i splash out more cash.

Im over the moon with the work Marty from FHRX has done but I'm looking for more improvement and was wondering which to tackle first.

Cheers

[Damon]

As you will no doubt find with everyone's personal opinion, there are differences of opinion about if, how and why amplifier sound different. Furthermore, while there are a number of people who will go on record and state that they believe amplifiers do sound different, they are often less inclined to explain how they can percieve this in a quantifiable way with any specific examples. I highly doubt there is anyone that could categorically state that 'Amplifier A' sounds 'better' than 'Amplifier B'. I also doubt very highly if anyone here at MEA has done a blind ABX test between the two amplifiers you are considering and can give you a 100% trustworthy answer to the specific question.

To your point about 'THD', it seems you misunderstand how this term is applied. This is a common misconception.

THD is not a measurement of 'quality' that an amplifier is capable of. I wish it was that simple, as we'd all then buy a 'low THD amplifier' and be done wit it! LOL.

When you see a THD rating on an amplifier this is simply a reference to the amount of Total Harmonic Distortion present in the waveform in relation to the specific power output claimed against it, while also in reference to the voltage provided, the impedance load tested, and finally the frequency tested.

Measuring THD is kind of like measuring pinging in an engine. All amplifiers produce THD at varying levels depending on all the above stated conditions, and as you get closer and closer to the threshold of clipping the waveform the THD percentage increases ever more. When I have bench tested amplifiers with the aid of a digital distortion meter I have noted a number of commonalies amongst them all. First of all, at lower wattages between zero and 10 watts the THD is quite high - at anywhere from 1 to 10% in some cases. Then, as power increases, the THD level subsides to innaudible levels. Note that the audibility of THD changes depending on the frequency being played. At 1kHz you'll hear very small amounts of THD as the human ear is very sensitive to this, whereas below 100Hz you can ahppily listen to THD as high as 10%. Once you start to approach the top levels of power capable the THD gradually starts to increase. When I bench test amplifier I attempt to arrive at a THD level of 1% after which I consider the clipping to high.

So, unfortunately, looking at one amplifier that says '0.08%THD' and thinking it is better than one that stated '1% THD' is incorrect. It is simply that the manufacturer has decided to take thier power measurement at a lower THD threshold. That is all. If the manufacturer of the first amplifier wanted a higher power rating they simply apply the rating at a higher THD level.

The thing is, many manufacterers know this misunderstanding with buyers and use low THD number because they know some buyers mistakenly think that the amplifier sounds better when this is not the case.

All in all, you can see that THD is definitely NOT a measurement by which you can compare the sound quality of two amplifiers.

[Marc ♫]

/yawn.

I've upgraded my amplifiers many times (and sometimes downgraded unintentionally), and my ears told me the difference. I couldn't really care why / how / what the reasons were (more power, less power, improved THD etc.) - I made the change and I either liked or disliked the difference. Part of our hobby is building / rebuilding and then making changes to the system for the hell of it. Don't take that away from the new and even the experienced enthusiasts.

Pick your amplifier based on your requirements for power and features - make the upgrade. I am sure you'll enjoy it. If not, resell it and continue the enjoyment that is our car audio hobby

[Frankston Car Audio]

Marc ♫, on 05 January 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

/yawn.

I've upgraded my amplifiers many times (and sometimes downgraded unintentionally), and my ears told me the difference. I couldn't really care why / how / what the reasons were (more power, less power, improved THD etc.) - I made the change and I either liked or disliked the difference. Part of our hobby is building / rebuilding and then making changes to the system for the hell of it. Don't take that away from the new and even the experienced enthusiasts.

Pick your amplifier based on your requirements for power and features - make the upgrade. I am sure you'll enjoy it. If not, resell it and continue the enjoyment that is our car audio hobby

The bold bits say it all..

Mark

[Lunchbox.inc]

Marc ♫, on 05 January 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

/yawn.

I've upgraded my amplifiers many times (and sometimes downgraded unintentionally), and my ears told me the difference. I couldn't really care why / how / what the reasons were (more power, less power, improved THD etc.) - I made the change and I either liked or disliked the difference. Part of our hobby is building / rebuilding and then making changes to the system for the hell of it. Don't take that away from the new and even the experienced enthusiasts.

Pick your amplifier based on your requirements for power and features - make the upgrade. I am sure you'll enjoy it. If not, resell it and continue the enjoyment that is our car audio hobby

THIS^^^

if we all shared the same opinion as some members on here we'd all be running Jaycar amps..

choose the gear that YOU want, for the reasons YOU want it, and you'll have bought yourself exactly what you want... and there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting exactly what you want...! lol

[LOEURO]

Thanks for your replies guys interesting food for thought !!

Damon thanks for your insight on THD, do you have any answers to the other questions i mentioned ?? Any experience with ARC Audio SE 4200 or can you suggest another Amp of that level ??

Marc your right i have experienced numerous amounts of Amps over the years and i understand its a very addictive hobby but buying and selling amps constantly is a lot of cash being wasted.

Lunchbox.inc i agree with you there is a lot of difference between 100wrms taiwanese / China / Korean made amps vs 100wrms US / German / Italian built amps, simply much better build quality and performance. ( In My Opinion don't hate me for it )

I know everyone has there own opinion on what works and what doesn't i don't want to start a thread with everyone bashing each others opinion i SERIOUSLY value everyones ideas / thoughts.

Keep the help coming guys and hope to meet you all someday in the car audio scene.

Cheers

[Damo95]

In terms of the arc 4200 se, talk to either Danny (fury) or jay (mr_jay_318i) as they are both running this amp in their cars at the moment...

To add to this, jay is using his 4200se to run his esotar2 110's & 430's I'm sure.. So he'd be in the know of the speaker/amp combo..

And I've heard that Danny may be selling his trio of arc SE's shortly...

Edited by Damo95, 05 January 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[muzzy66]

LOEURO: I would suggest that when it comes to optimising the performance (imaging, staging, linearity, etc) of your system the first place to start is the install itself You probably don't want to hear this because you would have just forked out big money on the install, but unfortunately installation and tuning is what make the greatest difference to a system outside of changing the speaker drivers. If this is already fixed and something you don't want to change, then unfortuantely a change of amp or head unit is probably the only other thing that can really give you any gain right now, though I get the feeling that any gain you get from these changes may be relatively minimal, Sure you might get a significant (and audible) improvement, but I wouldn't expect it to be night-and-day.

Damon, on 05 January 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

So, unfortunately, looking at one amplifier that says '0.08%THD' and thinking it is better than one that stated '1% THD' is incorrect. It is simply that the manufacturer has decided to take thier power measurement at a lower THD threshold. That is all. If the manufacturer of the first amplifier wanted a higher power rating they simply apply the rating at a higher THD level.

Based on that rationale, if both amplifiers are rated at the same power output, but one is rated at lower THD, then you could argue that this amplifier has a benefit in sound quality yes? Since it's rated at lower THD and yet still meets those same power output standards.

Once again, it's debatable whether these differences in THD are actually audible, but it's a benefit regardless.

Also THD isn't the only factor of consideration - there are also things like S/N ratio and the generall design of the amplifier circuits. For example I used to use an ARC 2100-XXK (2x100) to run my speakers a while back. When I had to get this amp repaired, I temporarilly used a Response 4x50 amp and used two channels of this amp to run the speakers. I could adjust the gains on the ARC amp pretty much to my hearts content and never got noise, but the Jaycar amp produced whine at anywhere other then minimal gain (i.e. down literally all the way). Even if i moved the gain knob a mere 5 degrees the whine would start to creep in.

I've noticed consistently over time that cheaper amps generally tend to be much more prone to noise, while more premium amps have not tended to suffer from this.

Then there is the issue of frequency response as well. Even some premium amps (like the Sinfoni Amplitude) will rate their frequency response 20hz-20khz @ +/- 1dB, and that's actually a pretty signficiant variation in frequency response for an amplifier. A 0.5dB dip/peak of significant bandwidth is subtle but defiantely audible, and a +/- 1dB amplifer could have as much as 2db of variation in amplitude from one frequency to the next...and that's VERY audible. This is undebatably significant enough a difference on it's own to give each amp it's own sonic character, because an amp thats +1dB @ 800hz and -1dB at 1.5khz is going to sound VERY different to an amp that's flat across that bandwidth, but -1dB at 50hz and +1dB at 8khz.

I've seen some class D subwoofer amps that are as much as -3dB at 30hz, so if that doesn't kill your bottom end extension of your sub then I don't know what will!

By comparison, something like the Tru-Tech Billet is +/- 0.5dB from 10hz - 50khz, which is extremely linear...and from your electronics that's exactly what you want.

I've done A/B tests between two quality amps that both have similar on paper specs, and even in this case the two sounded audibly different. One amp seemed a little more neutral in the midrange, but a bit thinner in the midbass...the other seemed to be a tad more coloured in the midrange but didn't sound as thin down low. The differences were subtle, but they were undoubtedly there.

Edited by muzzy66, 06 January 2012 - 06:02 AM.