28 replies to this topic

[LOEURO]

Hey Muzzy

Im very open to changing the design of the 110s and yet to purchase the 430s if i want to go for the 430 that is. The 110s are sitting behind the stock tweeter location which i know is not the best choice so I'm thinking of putting the 110s and 430s in a custom A-Pillar??

The only issue i have with this is the size of the speakers in the pillars, but to me sound overwrites the looks so who cares, and in my personal opinion have them in my view with some beautifully covered pillars with Alcantara suits me to a tee.

What do you think my gain will be having the 110s and 430s together in the pillars ??

My 650s will stay and have being custom built by Dan at FHRX and am very impressed in the way it sounds and looks, but do you think it will create an issue withe my 650s being a fair distance apart from 430s and 110s ??

Many thanks for your replies

[LOEURO]

This thread has gone from Amps to Speaker placement hehehe

I just was having a squiz at the Tru Tech Super Billet looks impressive, but i think LUBE will be required but you pay for what you get i suppose.

huffffffff so many choices makes me a little tired.. hehe

Fun times though

[~Spyne~]

There's no hard and fast rule about how close speakers NEED to be to each other in order to sound good.
Some of the best sounding cars in Oz have had the midrange in the kicks and the tweeters in the pillar.

It's certainly easier to integrate the sound when the mid and tweeter are close together, even better if the tweeter is slightly behind (closer to the bonnet than) the midrange.
I think the 430 plays reasonably low, around 300-350Hz as a high-pass shouldn't be too hard for it, which should allow you to have some distance between the midwoofer and the midrange without tuning difficulty.
Getting the mid and tweeter in the a-pillar together should make it easy to get good stage height and t/a will be easy for a solid centre image. Width and depth may be limited, depending on the shape of the cabin, but you should still be able to get very acceptable depth and width the at least the face of the a-pillars.

[muzzy66]

LOEURO, on 06 January 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Hey Muzzy

Im very open to changing the design of the 110s and yet to purchase the 430s if i want to go for the 430 that is. The 110s are sitting behind the stock tweeter location which i know is not the best choice so I'm thinking of putting the 110s and 430s in a custom A-Pillar??

The only issue i have with this is the size of the speakers in the pillars, but to me sound overwrites the looks so who cares, and in my personal opinion have them in my view with some beautifully covered pillars with Alcantara suits me to a tee.

What do you think my gain will be having the 110s and 430s together in the pillars ??

My 650s will stay and have being custom built by Dan at FHRX and am very impressed in the way it sounds and looks, but do you think it will create an issue withe my 650s being a fair distance apart from 430s and 110s ??

Many thanks for your replies

If you can get the tweeters and midranges on a common baffle then that is immediately a big advantage. Problem is (I tried this myself) that you will probably find it very difficult to get drivers that big in the A-Pillars and still get a decent amount of angle on them. Once you get more angle you'll probably find they just block way to much outside vision. If you can get them around 30 degrees off axis though (while on the same baffle in the a-pillars) then you'll be doing great.

The distance from the midrange -> midbass is nowhere near as significant as the distance from the midrange -> tweeter. The difference will be significant at the moment because your midbass is also playing midrange, but if you go three way your midbass will (I'm assuming) only play up to about 300hz, so at this type of crossover point placement of the midbass is much less critical. Looking at your install page it seems that your midwoofers are currenly quite far off axis, and as such switching to 3-way (properly tuned and installed of course) should definately give some benefit. From what I can see space seems to restrict the midbass from any further angle, which would mean little room for improvement if you keep it 2-way.

Getting the tweeters outside of the factory location would defiantely be my first priority though, if I were in your position. Stock positions are typically not only far off axis (which kills top end response), but also usually restricted by grills and door frims (which will kill top end response even more). Getting the tweeters out of that position and up in the pillars or kicks should improve the sound dramatically. Who knows, if you really like it, it might even save you the need to go 3-way.

That said, you don't want to rebuild your pillars to fit the tweeters only to find you still want more and want to add the mid in later!

Edited by muzzy66, 06 January 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[mad89]

LOEURO, on 06 January 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

I just was having a squiz at the Tru Tech Super Billet looks impressive, but i think LUBE will be required but you pay for what you get i suppose.

If you're looking at Arc SE's then definitely consider the TT Billets.

The amp A vs amp B debate has raged for years, so you're probably not going to get far with it arguing it out on an internet forum.

I'll share some personal experience though, in a customers car, we did an A-B comparison of Arc KS amps and Tru Tech Billets. The car runs a Dyn Esotar2 E650 and Morel Supremo Picollo combo active for the front stage. We began with the Arc's (already installed in the car) and had a good listen to some reference music that we know well (we - being myself, and the customer), then swapped out the Arc amp for a TT B4100S. All else remained the same settings wise. We kept the gains conservative on the TT amp. To begin with, the difference was subtle, little things in the music seemed to appear that we hadn't heard before. Putting the E650's through their paces with some more intricate music we could tell everything sounded a bit 'nicer'. One of the main differences at this point, was that it was all more dynamic, vocals of Ray Charles and Diana Krall seemed more lifelike and 'alive' (for lack of a better descriptive word). More authentic and real i guess you could say. As i said, sublte differences, but definitely noticeable.

It wasn't until we removed the B4100S and replaced it with the Arc amp again, that we noticed the biggest difference. The whole stereo just lost its dynamics and clarity. It sounded as though there were pillows in front of the speakers - everything just seemed dull and lifeless in comparison to what we had just heard and thoroughly enjoyed. Needless to say, the TT amp was bought to replace the Arc.

Make of that what you will, but that experience was enough for me to reinforce that there is a difference in sound between amps. How to 'measure' it is another story, and whether or not that difference is worth the price of the new amps is something you and your ears will have to decide for yourself.

Hope that helps.

[LOEURO]

WOW Spyne , Muzzy66 and Mad89 AWESOME replies

Very insightful and very helpful and has given me the thoughts and ideas to mount my tweeters and midrange speakers.

Now i just have to decide on the amp weather its a ARC, TT, or even Tube driver is the big question.

So many options but at least i know where I'm heading thanks boys you rock.

LOEURO

[MAS Andrew]

They were KS's Rick, not SE's.. Probably not a fair comparison
Tube amp you say? TA2

[muzzy66]

LOEURO, on 06 January 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

WOW Spyne , Muzzy66 and Mad89 AWESOME replies

Very insightful and very helpful and has given me the thoughts and ideas to mount my tweeters and midrange speakers.

Now i just have to decide on the amp weather its a ARC, TT, or even Tube driver is the big question.

So many options but at least i know where I'm heading thanks boys you rock.

Wouldn't touch a tube amp personally, but it all depends on what you are looking for I guess. My number one aim is always pure accuracy (i.e. to reproduce the source as close to perfectly as possible, and with minimal colouration) and in this regard good solid state amps tend to be more accurate then tube amps - or at least this is what seems to be the case from all feedback I've read/recieved.

Tru-Tech are definately hard to go past, which is why I bought one myself!

Between the ARC and Tru-Tech, I would personally go with Tru (and did). Not only to ARC not list all if the specifications I'd like to see, but I've also not been exceedingly impressed with my past experiences with either of my previous ARC amps. That's just me though, and I'm sure many other people out there have had no dramas.

Edited by muzzy66, 07 January 2012 - 01:18 AM.

[Pulse-R]

The 430 mids are nice.
If you can get the mids on the dash with the tweeters, that's fine. Mine are in the kicks.

In fact, the top 3 cars in MEASQ's Expert class at this year's finals all have mids in kicks and tweeters up high.

as to the amplifiers, anything over $3 per watt RRP should be just fine. not much benefit to going more than that.

[mad89]

MAS Andrew, on 07 January 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

They were KS's Rick, not SE's.. Probably not a fair comparison
Tube amp you say? TA2

Well just to clarify, i mainly posted my findings to compare two amplifiers at two different price points. I wasn't trying to say that Tru Tech Billets are better than Arc SE etc.

[BMWTurbo]

Are you planning on getting a retune after the amp change? This might be something to think about also, it is very easy through EQ adjustments, to have the system sound different with only very minor tweaks.

I'm certain you will hear a difference between the amps with a simple changeout only. You 'may' find that this is do to the response of the system.

Maybe you can have a tweak of the tune before spending money on things to change the system...

[LOEURO]

A retune is definitely in order once we upgrade and change !!

Looking forward to 2012 !!!

Thanks for your replies guys

[hugsdrugs]

i reckon a good way to do ear comparison is not in a car but powering them up with a 12v-14v generator inside you room/house and switching amps running decent quality speakers, im gonna do this soon.

got a tru billet, zapco c2k and a jl hd to compare when i get time got all the equpment ready but just saying better enviorment more instant switch between amps

[LOEURO]

Let us know your findings between the amps buddy would love to know !!

Dan