ok, so after searching around, i found that there isn't really a topic that is an "all rounder" for those wishing to get into fiber glassing...
i'm planning on doing some glass work this upcoming week, i've done a little of it over the years, but never without a watchful eye helping me out etc... so i'm not entirely confident with what i'm doing, which is hopefully where this thread will come in handy, for both myself, and all the others wanting to get into glassing...
if it helps this week i will be attempting some door pods and possibly pillars, and after that i will be moving on to some serious doors for my new project...
i'm hoping you more experienced guys can instill some iron courage in me, and help out with a few of the more basic principles... such as
- mixtures, how much hardener to resin ratio?
- techniques for best results
- where to buy materials (in SE melbourne preferably)
- best fabrics for the initial wrapping
just general stuff like that, that will get any beginners like myself off to a good start...?
thanks in advance for any help here!!
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23 replies to this topic
#1
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 03:09 PM
#2
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I'm John Wayne Pilgrims.
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 03:23 PM
Ok im just a beginner myself but for starters I get my stock from Bunnings (which people disapprove of because it isnt cheap at all).
You'll need:
Fiberglass Matting (These are chopped strands, basically what you see most people here use, you can get strips with are like a woven material and once dry it'll be smoother than chopped strand matting but i find chopped is easy enough)
Resin, the basic one I use from Bunnings is just called Fiberglass Resin.
Catalyst, the hardener for the resin (if your buying from bunnings get some measuring cups because on a hot day for 100ml of Resin you'll only want about 1.5-2.0ml of Catalyst to set it off within 30 mins.
So the basic principle is to obviously mount your rings, then you get wrap them in material (I find cotton or anything stretchy yet still breathable works well), the tighter you get the material the better, mix the resin + catalyst and apply liberally with a brush, once that dries it should be hard enough to take a good tapping, if not do a 2nd coat, once that's dry the next step for maximum durability is scuffing the resin with sandpaper and then applying a 3-4 layers of matting, once thats dry the bog stage begins.
Edit: Steve my friend i was in the exact same spot as you a few months ago, I found the process tedius, until I figured out the step by step. By all means I am no pro but here some of my work. Pictures really help the info "pop".
This is prior the doing anything.
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
I marked out the area where I wanted to stop with the matting.
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
Once that was pulled I wanted to flatten it off for visual purposes, so here i wrapped the whole thing in cotton, and hit it with one coat of Resin mixed with the Catalyst, but it didnt soak in too well at all so 2 coats were required.
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
I then used some Fiberglass matting to really reinforce it, if you are after a smooth finish a fiberglass roller or short hair brush will help remove any air bubbles.
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
Then of course it was bog time and paint.
By peaandham at 2012-01-13
You'll need:
Fiberglass Matting (These are chopped strands, basically what you see most people here use, you can get strips with are like a woven material and once dry it'll be smoother than chopped strand matting but i find chopped is easy enough)
Resin, the basic one I use from Bunnings is just called Fiberglass Resin.
Catalyst, the hardener for the resin (if your buying from bunnings get some measuring cups because on a hot day for 100ml of Resin you'll only want about 1.5-2.0ml of Catalyst to set it off within 30 mins.
So the basic principle is to obviously mount your rings, then you get wrap them in material (I find cotton or anything stretchy yet still breathable works well), the tighter you get the material the better, mix the resin + catalyst and apply liberally with a brush, once that dries it should be hard enough to take a good tapping, if not do a 2nd coat, once that's dry the next step for maximum durability is scuffing the resin with sandpaper and then applying a 3-4 layers of matting, once thats dry the bog stage begins.
Edit: Steve my friend i was in the exact same spot as you a few months ago, I found the process tedius, until I figured out the step by step. By all means I am no pro but here some of my work. Pictures really help the info "pop".
This is prior the doing anything.
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
I marked out the area where I wanted to stop with the matting.
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
Once that was pulled I wanted to flatten it off for visual purposes, so here i wrapped the whole thing in cotton, and hit it with one coat of Resin mixed with the Catalyst, but it didnt soak in too well at all so 2 coats were required.
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
I then used some Fiberglass matting to really reinforce it, if you are after a smooth finish a fiberglass roller or short hair brush will help remove any air bubbles.
By peaandham at 2011-12-19
Then of course it was bog time and paint.
By peaandham at 2012-01-13
Edited by peaandham, 22 January 2012 - 03:32 PM.
1st Place in SA's first SQ Comp, Intermediate Class.
1st Place in SA's First 2011 Comp, Intermediate Class
Sales Assistant for Solver/Wattyl Paints and Granosite Texture Coatings.
Inquires Welcome.
#3
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 03:54 PM
I think fibreglassing is one of the most feared practices for newcomers to car audio fabrication. Thing is, it's one of the easiest to do. There's no power tools needed to lay glass, no electricity, and you have to work pretty hard to stuff it up!
The best advice I could have had when I was contemplating starting with fibreglass is "just try it." There's not as much to it as you think! If you're completely new to it, ALWAYS try a test piece first. Doesn't matter what it is, but try to use mat and resin as you intend to on your project.
Resin
Polyester resin has a blue appearance before it's mixed and sets fairly clear - sometimes with a slight green tinge. Epoxy resin is brown, smells a fair bit more, and sets more brown. My recommendation is to use polyester resin with the intended MEKP (Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide) catalyst. It's more managable, smells less, and cleans better in my opinion.
Mix it as per the instructions. Don't skimp, get a proper measuring cup or pipette and mix your resin in a graded plastic container so you know exactly what you're dealing with. If it's a polypropylene container (most are,) you'll be able to crack and peel the leftover resin out once it sets, and re-use the container. Don't try and do "hot mixes" or "cold mixes" as people peddle sometimes, just follow recommendations. If mixed improperly you end up with a resin which doesn't set properly, or is excessively brittle. If you do it as per the instructions - again - it's hard to get wrong. Don't mix more than ~500 grams (~500 mL) of resin at a time, especially when you start out. It's better to mix more and continue than to waste resin or use too much.
Masking
If you're laying fibreglass mat down on an existing shape and you don't want it to stick, I recommend wide masking tape for small areas, and alfoil for larger areas, stuck down with a light duty spray adhesive. Either can be sanded / brushed off once the resin has set and the piece pulled off.
Don't skimp; use a decent brand of masking tape. Cheaper stuff has adhesive which goes sticky once resin gets into it, and resin can even soak through the tape. Use 3M or Bear brand from my experience, often green or blue coloured masking tape.
Mask / cover up below any area you intend to have resin. If you're working in your boot, mask your rear bumper, scuff panel in your boot, boot floor, wiring, etc. It is easy to drip around the place once you get going. Once you're in the swing of it, masking doesn't take long.
Matting / Medium
This is something that changes depending on application - fibreglass chopped mat, woven mat, fleece, grille cloth, etc. For free-forming shapes people generally wrap in polyester fleece and then resin it. It takes more resin than you imagine to soak right through fleece so it's useful to be able to see the backside and assess if resin has soaked through.
I prefer the thickest chopped mat you can get your hands on for jobs where you're reinforcing a fleece shape, or taking the shape of a panel or shape which already exists. I apply matting cut into appropriately sized pieces with light duty spray adhesive over the entire area before starting. Keep spare pieces in case bits move around or if you want more matting in areas. If it's a bit messy once it's laid down, don't worry. Once the resin starts soaking in, the mat will form to shape better and stick down.
Applying Resin
Buy cheap paint brushes - most places sell cheap combo packs - with fairly soft bristles. I throw my brushes out after each use, I don't find much use in cleaning them. Also get some decent vinyl gloves - you can re-use them - and wear old clothes. Resin has a habit of getting everywhere and it's hard to clean off, so keep an old rag and a small bottle of acetone handy.
In my opinion, a common mistake is applying too much resin, especially when using fibreglass mat. The strength in fibreglass actually lies in the mat itself - resin is there only to hold the strands of fibreglass mat together. So applying more resin than is absolutely needed is unneccessary.
Once you mix resin, you have about 30 minutes to work with it. After 20 minutes, the resin will turn slightly gelatinous and go progressively from blue to brown. If it looks distinctly brown, try to use it up in 10 minutes or so.
I apply resin fairly lightly at first and as I move to cover the mat I've laid down, it soaks in to the mat. Then I dab extra resin into the mat with the paintbrush if needed, it gets rid of air bubbles and sticks down the mat. If you're slathering resin everywhere in a hurry to get it down, you'll just add thickness without strength.
So many people ask how thick? How many layers? The answer is arbitrary. If you lay it down right, and apply resin right, even a large subwoofer box doesn't need to be very thick. I can stand on any subwoofer box I build from fibreglass. if you don't feel as though you could do that, it probably needs more fibreglass.
They're my experiences. As I mentioned, just give it a try!
The best advice I could have had when I was contemplating starting with fibreglass is "just try it." There's not as much to it as you think! If you're completely new to it, ALWAYS try a test piece first. Doesn't matter what it is, but try to use mat and resin as you intend to on your project.
Resin
Polyester resin has a blue appearance before it's mixed and sets fairly clear - sometimes with a slight green tinge. Epoxy resin is brown, smells a fair bit more, and sets more brown. My recommendation is to use polyester resin with the intended MEKP (Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide) catalyst. It's more managable, smells less, and cleans better in my opinion.
Mix it as per the instructions. Don't skimp, get a proper measuring cup or pipette and mix your resin in a graded plastic container so you know exactly what you're dealing with. If it's a polypropylene container (most are,) you'll be able to crack and peel the leftover resin out once it sets, and re-use the container. Don't try and do "hot mixes" or "cold mixes" as people peddle sometimes, just follow recommendations. If mixed improperly you end up with a resin which doesn't set properly, or is excessively brittle. If you do it as per the instructions - again - it's hard to get wrong. Don't mix more than ~500 grams (~500 mL) of resin at a time, especially when you start out. It's better to mix more and continue than to waste resin or use too much.
Masking
If you're laying fibreglass mat down on an existing shape and you don't want it to stick, I recommend wide masking tape for small areas, and alfoil for larger areas, stuck down with a light duty spray adhesive. Either can be sanded / brushed off once the resin has set and the piece pulled off.
Don't skimp; use a decent brand of masking tape. Cheaper stuff has adhesive which goes sticky once resin gets into it, and resin can even soak through the tape. Use 3M or Bear brand from my experience, often green or blue coloured masking tape.
Mask / cover up below any area you intend to have resin. If you're working in your boot, mask your rear bumper, scuff panel in your boot, boot floor, wiring, etc. It is easy to drip around the place once you get going. Once you're in the swing of it, masking doesn't take long.
Matting / Medium
This is something that changes depending on application - fibreglass chopped mat, woven mat, fleece, grille cloth, etc. For free-forming shapes people generally wrap in polyester fleece and then resin it. It takes more resin than you imagine to soak right through fleece so it's useful to be able to see the backside and assess if resin has soaked through.
I prefer the thickest chopped mat you can get your hands on for jobs where you're reinforcing a fleece shape, or taking the shape of a panel or shape which already exists. I apply matting cut into appropriately sized pieces with light duty spray adhesive over the entire area before starting. Keep spare pieces in case bits move around or if you want more matting in areas. If it's a bit messy once it's laid down, don't worry. Once the resin starts soaking in, the mat will form to shape better and stick down.
Applying Resin
Buy cheap paint brushes - most places sell cheap combo packs - with fairly soft bristles. I throw my brushes out after each use, I don't find much use in cleaning them. Also get some decent vinyl gloves - you can re-use them - and wear old clothes. Resin has a habit of getting everywhere and it's hard to clean off, so keep an old rag and a small bottle of acetone handy.
In my opinion, a common mistake is applying too much resin, especially when using fibreglass mat. The strength in fibreglass actually lies in the mat itself - resin is there only to hold the strands of fibreglass mat together. So applying more resin than is absolutely needed is unneccessary.
Once you mix resin, you have about 30 minutes to work with it. After 20 minutes, the resin will turn slightly gelatinous and go progressively from blue to brown. If it looks distinctly brown, try to use it up in 10 minutes or so.
I apply resin fairly lightly at first and as I move to cover the mat I've laid down, it soaks in to the mat. Then I dab extra resin into the mat with the paintbrush if needed, it gets rid of air bubbles and sticks down the mat. If you're slathering resin everywhere in a hurry to get it down, you'll just add thickness without strength.
So many people ask how thick? How many layers? The answer is arbitrary. If you lay it down right, and apply resin right, even a large subwoofer box doesn't need to be very thick. I can stand on any subwoofer box I build from fibreglass. if you don't feel as though you could do that, it probably needs more fibreglass.
They're my experiences. As I mentioned, just give it a try!
#4
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 04:22 PM
Also, if you intend to extensively sand the fibre glass at any stage, rug up. I usually go all out with a disposable sperm suit, p2 mask, face visor, gloves, and tape the junction of the gloves and suit.
Sounds like overkill but I had a bad experience with sanding fibreglass once. Once it gets on your skin or clothes it stays there for a while, and itches like crazy. And you really don't want it in your lungs or eyes.
Sounds like overkill but I had a bad experience with sanding fibreglass once. Once it gets on your skin or clothes it stays there for a while, and itches like crazy. And you really don't want it in your lungs or eyes.
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#5
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 04:30 PM
i have no real idea if this is even remotley close but i but my stuff from these guys up here in sydney
http://www.nuplexcom...alia/?q=node/58
they have been helpful and sell it in bulk and are cheaper then bunnings (my experiance)
hope it helps..
http://www.nuplexcom...alia/?q=node/58
they have been helpful and sell it in bulk and are cheaper then bunnings (my experiance)
hope it helps..
Edited by im45pl, 22 January 2012 - 04:32 PM.
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:13 PM
My first attempt (today) ended up looking like a road killed albino Echidna.
Good practice though eventually I might give carbon fibered a pillars a shot.
Good practice though eventually I might give carbon fibered a pillars a shot.
#7
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 10:27 PM
cheers guys!! a TONNE of great info already!!!
i've been watching a bit of youtube with tutorials etc oddly enough Steve Meades walk thru was super helpful on the practical side... he may not do the prettiest work, but he explains things well...
already feeling MUCH more confident than before, now just to try and put some of this new knowledge into practice... tuesday is the day!!
i've been watching a bit of youtube with tutorials etc oddly enough Steve Meades walk thru was super helpful on the practical side... he may not do the prettiest work, but he explains things well...
already feeling MUCH more confident than before, now just to try and put some of this new knowledge into practice... tuesday is the day!!
#8
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I'm John Wayne Pilgrims.
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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:15 AM
Steve man, ive PM'd you my number, if you need any help or want to know anything and can't wait for someone on here to reply text me and I'll try to help you.
Looking forward to what you will be doing.
Looking forward to what you will be doing.
1st Place in SA's first SQ Comp, Intermediate Class.
1st Place in SA's First 2011 Comp, Intermediate Class
Sales Assistant for Solver/Wattyl Paints and Granosite Texture Coatings.
Inquires Welcome.
#9
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Posted 23 January 2012 - 02:20 AM
+1 what Big V said. The polyester resin i've used is slightly green in colour and doesn't change in appearance as it sets, YMMV.
I've used speaker grille cloth instead of fleece. Easier to stretch and doesn't require as much resin to soak.
Materials:
-Resin + Catalyst + glass mat/cloth. Chopped strand mat is easier to work with for odd shapes, but Woven cloth is stronger.
-Cheap paint brushes
-Ventilated working area (outside on a breezy day is best)
-Eye protection (proper sealed goggles)
-Fume grade mask
-Gloves (cheap disposable rubber/vinyl ones are fine)
-Container to mix the resin in and something to stir it. I simply use take away containers (premeasured with water and a measuring cup and marked out on the side) and throw them out after a few uses.
Method:
-Put on Gloves
-Cut/rip up all the mat/cloth you intend to use. I do this in a plastic garbage bag otherwise little strands of glass go everywhere and it's a prick to clean up
-Put on your Eye protection and fume mask.
-Pour your resin into a mixing container. I don't mix any more than 100mL at a time for fiddly jobs.
-Add the catalyst/hardener. MEKP catalyst is supplied in different dilutions so just follow the mixing instructions on the bottle. MEKP catalyst is corrosive, explosive and lets off toxic fumes. Always wear goggles, a fume mask and gloves when handling it. Don't add more than the recommend amount of catalyst to make it set faster. The trick to getting a strong but slightly flexible resin is to let it set slowly. Stir well!
-Work quickly. Polyester resin has about 20mins working time before it turns into a Gel.
-Brush on a reletively heavy coat of resin, lay your piece of mat/cloth down, and dab/prod it to get rid of any air bubbles. Brushing over the cloth will just make the strands separate.
-Repeat until done. If your resin turns into a gel you have to stop. Trying work when it has gelled will just make things worse.
-Wait for it to dry (overnight)!
-Give it a light sand and grind/cut off any drips, high spots, air bubbles and excess mat before the next layer.
When you are resining your fleece let it set hard before you start laying on any of your fibreglass, otherwise it can end up wavey/lumpy. You can ignore this if it's a part that isn't going to be seen though
Polyester resin can react with various glues and even permanent marker, so if you have glue on the piece you are fibreglassing it might pay to do a test run first. Usually it just takes a bit longer to set.
Cleanup:
Throw brushes away.
Wait for left over resin to set hard in container, then simply twist the container and it will crack away and fall out.
I've used speaker grille cloth instead of fleece. Easier to stretch and doesn't require as much resin to soak.
Materials:
-Resin + Catalyst + glass mat/cloth. Chopped strand mat is easier to work with for odd shapes, but Woven cloth is stronger.
-Cheap paint brushes
-Ventilated working area (outside on a breezy day is best)
-Eye protection (proper sealed goggles)
-Fume grade mask
-Gloves (cheap disposable rubber/vinyl ones are fine)
-Container to mix the resin in and something to stir it. I simply use take away containers (premeasured with water and a measuring cup and marked out on the side) and throw them out after a few uses.
Method:
-Put on Gloves
-Cut/rip up all the mat/cloth you intend to use. I do this in a plastic garbage bag otherwise little strands of glass go everywhere and it's a prick to clean up
-Put on your Eye protection and fume mask.
-Pour your resin into a mixing container. I don't mix any more than 100mL at a time for fiddly jobs.
-Add the catalyst/hardener. MEKP catalyst is supplied in different dilutions so just follow the mixing instructions on the bottle. MEKP catalyst is corrosive, explosive and lets off toxic fumes. Always wear goggles, a fume mask and gloves when handling it. Don't add more than the recommend amount of catalyst to make it set faster. The trick to getting a strong but slightly flexible resin is to let it set slowly. Stir well!
-Work quickly. Polyester resin has about 20mins working time before it turns into a Gel.
-Brush on a reletively heavy coat of resin, lay your piece of mat/cloth down, and dab/prod it to get rid of any air bubbles. Brushing over the cloth will just make the strands separate.
-Repeat until done. If your resin turns into a gel you have to stop. Trying work when it has gelled will just make things worse.
-Wait for it to dry (overnight)!
-Give it a light sand and grind/cut off any drips, high spots, air bubbles and excess mat before the next layer.
When you are resining your fleece let it set hard before you start laying on any of your fibreglass, otherwise it can end up wavey/lumpy. You can ignore this if it's a part that isn't going to be seen though
Polyester resin can react with various glues and even permanent marker, so if you have glue on the piece you are fibreglassing it might pay to do a test run first. Usually it just takes a bit longer to set.
Cleanup:
Throw brushes away.
Wait for left over resin to set hard in container, then simply twist the container and it will crack away and fall out.
Edited by TMM, 23 January 2012 - 02:46 AM.
Who needs brand loyalty? :p
#10
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Posted 23 January 2012 - 07:16 AM
Just to add to the comments given.
-I found a fiberglass roller a great addition, much easier to roll it out than dab at all the air bubbles, and I feel it gave a much better result. They can be had for around the $10-15 mark, a worthwhile investment if your after a neat result.
-When masking/covering up, more is always better. Resin is a biatch to get out of carpet etc, so go the extra and cover up everything properly.
-Ensure the proper safety equipment is being worn. Gloves, long sleeves, eye protection and a decent mask with organic filters... I have glassed once without the proper mask and it was a stupid mistake, sore lungs for a couple of days after, not good at all...
-I found a fiberglass roller a great addition, much easier to roll it out than dab at all the air bubbles, and I feel it gave a much better result. They can be had for around the $10-15 mark, a worthwhile investment if your after a neat result.
-When masking/covering up, more is always better. Resin is a biatch to get out of carpet etc, so go the extra and cover up everything properly.
-Ensure the proper safety equipment is being worn. Gloves, long sleeves, eye protection and a decent mask with organic filters... I have glassed once without the proper mask and it was a stupid mistake, sore lungs for a couple of days after, not good at all...
#11
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Posted 23 January 2012 - 07:18 AM
dude
if need any info
i know someone that can help you
he been doing custom glassing for atleast 20 odd years and can teach you a FAIR bit
if need any info
i know someone that can help you
he been doing custom glassing for atleast 20 odd years and can teach you a FAIR bit
MEAVIC Commitee member
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Pulse-R, on Oct 14 2008, 09:45PM, said:
Sleeping with guys is not necessarily a bad thing
broadz, on Aug 12 2008, 01:33 PM, said:
Brad, they arent all that big.....
Mine is quite small
Mine is quite small
nuttered, on Jan 23 2006, 11:20 AM, said:
Coronas, sol, or anything advertised with a lemon sticking out of it - chicks drink.
#12
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I'm John Wayne Pilgrims.
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Posted 23 January 2012 - 08:15 AM
KSR, on 23 January 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:
I have glassed once without the proper mask and it was a stupid mistake, sore lungs for a couple of days after, not good at all...
I will be honest ive done it with no mask, for my first set of kicks and my pillars, and the next morning after each one I was coughing up blood, so the mask is a worthwhile investment.
1st Place in SA's first SQ Comp, Intermediate Class.
1st Place in SA's First 2011 Comp, Intermediate Class
Sales Assistant for Solver/Wattyl Paints and Granosite Texture Coatings.
Inquires Welcome.
#13
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Posted 23 January 2012 - 09:52 AM
peaandham, on 23 January 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:
I will be honest ive done it with no mask, for my first set of kicks and my pillars, and the next morning after each one I was coughing up blood, so the mask is a worthwhile investment.
Sh*t man, thats no joke. I was never coughing up blood just sore lungs when breathing in deeply. Looking back at it now I can't believe I did it without a respirator. I have found a couple decent ones for around the $70 mark (inc filters) which I'll probably grab when I do anymore serious work...
Steve, apart from trolling the fiberglass forums, I think the best thing to do is have a chat to Blanket and get someone to show you the ropes, it's really quite easy to pick up, especially when someone is teaching you... Oh and make sure you show us the final product!!!!
#14
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Posted 23 January 2012 - 11:26 AM
All of the above comments cover the basics, +1 on a glass roller. The key is not to have any air bubbles or pockets at all.
As for where to buy, Try FGI in Springvale which is now called nuplex composites http://www.nuplexcom...alia/?q=node/58 they will also help with info and advise
Daniel
As for where to buy, Try FGI in Springvale which is now called nuplex composites http://www.nuplexcom...alia/?q=node/58 they will also help with info and advise
Daniel
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Posted 23 January 2012 - 11:29 AM
I don't wear a mask when laying resin but I cut mat instead of tearing and work outdoors with fan forced ventilation on the area I'm working. I try not to slop things around and be messy, there's no need.
If sanding, always wear a good mask.
If sanding, always wear a good mask.
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