18 replies to this topic

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

Hi there,

Been many years since I put a system together but just getting out of a company car and back into my own vehicle this week.

As I've been out of the loop for so long, i've lost track a bit of where the tech is up to, what brands are good value, etc.

I'm looking for your recommendations for a 10" dual coil 4ohm subwoofer for my new setup. I will be running a pair installed in a sealed box, I have one made up at 33 litres per speaker. Amplification is Jaycar 2x150 which is rated to 240WRMS at 2 ohm stable.

What would you guys recommend for that?
- 33lt sealed enclosure
- 10"
- dual 4 ohm voice coils
- 240w RMS

[JohnDB]

Mr September,

I'm new to this forum, but I do detect that like myself, you are at the "lighter end" of the car Audio seen? For your amp a pair of Kicker C104 (150 w rms) might be the go for you.

I myself have just built a sub enclosure and it has 2 x 10" Alpine SWS-1043D ( dual voice coil 4 ohm) in it, but have yet to splash the cash on a amp, if you are not in a hurry I will have my amp purchased and installed by end of March and can then report back on sound quality , volume etc, these are rated at 300 w rms, so you could be a little short on power (?) with your amp, then again I could be wrong. My sub enclosure is 2 separate 1 cu.ft chambers so 2 x 28.3 litres.

There are some crazy 10 inch subs out there, see this, HDC310-A - aluminium voice coil, 1000w continuous power rating and 2000 w peak ! so it needs its own power station to run !

http://www.audioque....-Only_p_26.html

I'm sure the more experienced members can make some recommendations or checkout the for sale postings?

JohnDb

[shiny_car]

Dual 4ohm or SVC 8ohm would be fine, in the event you find 8" subs.

Subs that would work nicely in around 33L per sub include:
*Alpine Type-S as already recommended; also the Type-R
*Boston Acoustics G110-44 or G210-44
*Arc Audio Arc 10
*Focal, JL Audio, Kicker, etc

Kind of depend on your budget really, and what sort of music you like and what your aims with the system are. The usual stuff!

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

Mr September,

I'm new to this forum, but I do detect that like myself, you are at the "lighter end" of the car Audio seen? For your amp a pair of Kicker C104 (150 w rms) might be the go for you.

I myself have just built a sub enclosure and it has 2 x 10" Alpine SWS-1043D ( dual voice coil 4 ohm) in it, but have yet to splash the cash on a amp, if you are not in a hurry I will have my amp purchased and installed by end of March and can then report back on sound quality , volume etc, these are rated at 300 w rms, so you could be a little short on power (?) with your amp, then again I could be wrong. My sub enclosure is 2 separate 1 cu.ft chambers so 2 x 28.3 litres.

There are some crazy 10 inch subs out there, see this, HDC310-A - aluminium voice coil, 1000w continuous power rating and 2000 w peak ! so it needs its own power station to run !

http://www.audioque....-Only_p_26.html

I'm sure the more experienced members can make some recommendations or checkout the for sale postings?

JohnDb

Hi John,

Assumption confirmed, "personal enjoyment only" and "bang for buck" are relevant descriptives.
Last system was:

• Pioneer dual pre-out CD tuner
  
• Jaycar 2x80
  
• Phoenix Gold Octane R 2 way components
  
• Jaycar 2x150
  
• 2x Phoenix Gold Octane R 10" DVC

The setup you descibe in your second paragraph will be pretty much the same as mine. Would be interested in your feedback about your results as something of a benchmark, as my setup will end up being very similar but I would probably like to do something before 1 month from now : )

Thanks, I am keeping an eye in the classifieds but do prefer new equipment when it comes to electronics generally, and especially speakers.

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

Dual 4ohm or SVC 8ohm would be fine, in the event you find 8" subs.

Subs that would work nicely in around 33L per sub include:
*Alpine Type-S as already recommended; also the Type-R
*Boston Acoustics G110-44 or G210-44
*Arc Audio Arc 10
*Focal, JL Audio, Kicker, etc

Kind of depend on your budget really, and what sort of music you like and what your aims with the system are. The usual stuff!

Wow, admin attention already! I hope I don't make the wrong choice and get my ass b&. Haha!

Thanks for your reply. First of all, I'm a bit unsure how to wire 2x 8 ohm SVC subs to present a 2 ohm load on each of two amplification channels, but will try and think my way out of that box later! I don't see lots of 8ohm SVC subs around so hopefully won't need to worry about it.

Those recommendations are helpful, thanks!

• Boston G1 and G2 look like they could work well. Since last time I built a system, Boston had a pretty good rep, I am presuming this is still the same.
  
• JL W0v3 looks good too, either by building down the current enclosure to a smaller size or just porting the existing enclosure - gives the flexibility to look at ported options which I have not done before. But it does not seem to be available in DVC 4ohm at all? I could go to W3v3 in a SVC 2ohm model but not sure if I'll get the best from it with 240W RMS - the super-general online advertorial on JL's website recommends 150-500W, how does this actually translate in the real world? I guess you'd be better off with about 500W available and throttle the gain to save the speaker, i.e. have some headroom.

Regarding "your budget, and what sort of music you like and what your aims with the system are":

• Cost not so much a problem, but can't really justify spending heaps of money on it. Would probably balk at paying more than $300 a speaker.
  
• Musical tastes vary from classical and baroque styles, to female vocals (Fiona Apple, Sarah McLachlan), to grungey metal stuff (Tool, etc), to 80s guitar rock (Dire Straits, etc.) to some dance (Tiesto, Ministry of Sound, etc.) and new age (Delerium) things - very eclectic. This is why I used 2x 10" in the past - the combined cone area can move some air and they're pretty responsive for the more boppy stuff. The lack of super low bottom end is no huge problem.
  
• Aims: just personal enjoyment, more interested in sound quality than flat-out volume and noise. Rarely listen to it at dangerous volumes.

Thanks all for your contributions so far!
Sorry about "Wall-o-Text" mode, hope there isn't too much "Too Long Didn't Read" response on this forums?

Edited by SeptemberSquallIndustries, 01 March 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[hardyards]

Wow, admin attention already! I hope I don't make the wrong choice and get my ass b&. Haha!

Thanks for your reply. First of all, I'm a bit unsure how to wire 2x 8 ohm SVC subs to present a 2 ohm load on each of two amplification channels, but will try and think my way out of that box later! I don't see lots of 8ohm SVC subs around so hopefully won't need to worry about it.

You would wire 2 x 8ohm subs in parallel so you have a total load of 4 ohms, then you would bridge your amp to a single channel to drive both subs.

I think your best option is to look for something with dual 4 ohm voice coils or single 2 ohm voice coils so that you can run your amp in bridged mode (@ 4 ohms this should be close to 500 wrms).

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

You would wire 2 x 8ohm subs in parallel so you have a total load of 4 ohms, then you would bridge your amp to a single channel to drive both subs.

I think your best option is to look for something with dual 4 ohm voice coils or single 2 ohm voice coils so that you can run your amp in bridged mode (@ 4 ohms this should be close to 500 wrms).

Thanks for the reply. Sorry, I don't follow.
The setup will be dual 10" speakers.

If I go dual 4 Ohm voice Coils, then wire in parallel, each sub presents 2ohm impedance.
If I then wire each sub in series to the amplifier, I'll get one channel at 4ohm impedance.

Is there an advantage to doing this (running 2 speakers on 1 channel in 4ohm bridged)
instead of my original plan (running 2 speakers on 2 channels in 2ohm stereo)?

[Mr. Drifter]

the advantage appears to be you gain an extra 100wrms of power to play with..

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

But this amp is rated to 240w x 2 at 2 ohm or 480w x 1 at 4 ohm bridged - because there are 2 subs to run, it seems like the (per sub) output is actually the same both ways?

[hardyards]

Yeah you are right!

The subs will receive the same amount of power weather you run 2 channels @ 2 ohm or bridge the amp for a single channel. I was just thinking for ease of wiring (you will just run a single pair of speaker cables to your sub enclosure rather than 2).

So now to add something more useful than my last post a few subs to look at could be:

- Polk MM1040DVC (they retail for $279 but FHRX have them on special at the moment so maybe give them a call)
- Boston G310-44 (can be had for as little as $240, and if they are anything like their big brother the G5 then should be a dam good sub)
- Arc Audio KS10 D4 (retails for about $200 and apparently suits a 1 cubic ft enclosure)
- Hertz ES250 D.4 (retails for about $200)

[scraverX]

I've been running a pair of Polk MM1040DVC's a while now. Can't fault them for a wide range of music and I, like you do have wide ranging tastes.

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

Those recommendations are helpful, thanks!

• JL W0v3 looks good too, either by building down the current enclosure to a smaller size or just porting the existing enclosure - gives the flexibility to look at ported options which I have not done before. But it does not seem to be available in DVC 4ohm at all? I could go to W3v3 in a SVC 2ohm model but not sure if I'll get the best from it with 240W RMS - the super-general online advertorial on JL's website recommends 150-500W, how does this actually translate in the real world? I guess you'd be better off with about 500W available and throttle the gain to save the speaker, i.e. have some headroom

Been mulling over the following and my current thought process is to do the following:

• Return the NIB Jaycar 2x80W RMS amp and put the credit towards the Jaycar 1x1000WRMS @ 1ohm monoblock.
  
• Promote the 2x150W RMS amp to front stage duties.
  
• JL C5-650 front stage
  
• 2 of JL 10W3v3-2 subwoofers
  
• Build down the box to JL enclosure volume specs
  
• Wire 2x 2 ohm SVC drivers in parallel for 1 ohm on 1 channel load

Should be the go I think, any opinions about the middle-of-the-range W3v3 / C5 components?
The JL enclosure specs look very small for the sealed enclosure - only 17 litres net of woofer displacement. Does this seem right?

Edited by SeptemberSquallIndustries, 02 March 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[shiny_car]

If I then wire each sub in series to the amplifier, I'll get one channel at 4ohm impedance.

You shouldn't wire subs together in series. It works, but not ideal, due to back-EMF, where they interfere with each other. It's ok to wire VCs in series on the same sub though. You original goal has been 4ohm bridged, hence 2x dual 4ohm subs or 2x 8ohm subs works. It just depends what the manufacturer offers.

Should be the go I think, any opinions about the middle-of-the-range W3v3 / C5 components?
The JL enclosure specs look very small for the sealed enclosure - only 17 litres net of woofer displacement. Does this seem right?

Upgrading to the monoblock would be a good idea.

JL W3 subs have always been very good. Modelling the specs of the 10W3v3-2, I recommend sealed boxes up to 1cuft/28L per sub if you can. But down to 17L is ok.

I haven't auditioned their speakers, but they've been popular over the years.

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

Upgrading to the monoblock would be a good idea.

JL W3 subs have always been very good. Modelling the specs of the 10W3v3-2, I recommend sealed boxes up to 1cuft/28L per sub if you can. But down to 17L is ok.

I haven't auditioned their speakers, but they've been popular over the years.

Hi there,

Thanks for popping back. When you say modelling, I presume you are using all the thiele/small specs to work out what your preferred enclosure size would be. Thanks for going to the effort!

When you say your preferred enclosure size would be up to 28L (sealed), is that a gross displacement, or net of woofer displacement? As best I can tell, the JL recommendation is for a gross enclosure size of only 22.6L gross, or 17L net of woofer displacement. For what reason would your recommendation be different to the manufacturer's? I think larger enclosures help with reproduction at lower frequencies, is that the idea?

Edit: OK, found this in the internet which seems to be agreeing with shiny_car (never was in any doubt) but seems strange that JL would recommend a sub-optimal enclosure size? Admittedly. changing the "vb" from recommended 30L (assuming gross displacement) to 22L (JL's recommended gross displacement) makes little discernable difference above 50 HZ. See attachment for pic.

Cheers,,,

Attached Files

•  boxsize.jpg   126.45K   0 downloads

Edited by SeptemberSquallIndustries, 03 March 2012 - 02:54 PM.

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[shiny_car]

Yes, I modelled the T/S specs using WinISD.

Thing is, it's always a compromise, and usually between size and performance. I generally always refer to nett internal volume.

A bigger box will flatten the frequency response slightly, reducing any peaks, and play the low stuff slightly louder; it also improves efficiency slightly, so it'll be louder overall. The downside is size/weight, and it can reduce the mechanical power handling (before the cone reaches max excursion).

The difference will only be small...very small. Just that if you have the space, go with the bigger box. If you want to save space/weight, then 17L nett will also be fine.

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

No worries, so you are suggesting up to 28L net per woofer sealed, that's acually fine, that size will work fine for the intended install location. And anywhere between 17L net and 28L net should be satisfactory, so if final install necessitates 25ish litres net then will still work OK. Great!

Went to demo the C5-650 speakers today. Found that they could be described as very 'true' or balanced in their reproduction but were a bit flat compared to what I am accustomed to from my last speakers (Phoenix Gold Octane R). While I'm not convinced the flatter response is a bad thing, would others who have demo'd these speakers say the same of them? If so, how did they go when you installed them?

Cheers,,,

[hardyards]

I have never heard them in a car, but I remember thinking they were the best sounding speakers in the JB hifi demo board at one stage (although they had minimal competition!).

They retail around the $700 mark yeah? There a lot of options if your willing to spend that much, have you checked out this http://www.mobileele...eview_under_600 ?

You could also check out somthing like:

- Crescendo opus 7B or opus 5
- Boston Acoustics SR60
- Hybrid Audio Technology (HAT) U61-2
- Focal 165KR or Focal 165V30

-

[SeptemberSquallIndustries]

Hi there,

Yes, had a look at the review last night. Looking forward to checking out the Crescendo and Morel options - but the more I think about it, the more I think I'd have trouble justifying more than the Morel Tempo or Crescendo Opus 3 type speakers at around the $300-$400 dollar mark. The JL's were nice but not $700 in my mind, and the car they are going in may not justify speakers double the price.

Was also recommended a new Focal speaker today, PS165 (their new Performance range), featuring Polyglass mids and their new tweeter for around $350 as well, so mulling that over as well.

[MAS Andrew]

The DLS RS6N and HAT Imagine I61-2 are worth looking at in the price range.
The DLS did really well last year in the MEA speaker comparison.
The HAT speakers are relatively new to the Aussie market but are exception performers, and are a convertible design