25 replies to this topic

[shiny_car]

Unfortunately, during tuning preparation for MEASQ this week, I blew my Sinfoni tweeters. *apologies Ant!*

I ran my mids without a LP filter to cover the treble. Sounded pretty good, but stageheight suffered (kickpanel mids), excessive acoustic roll-off on driver's side, and cone break-up was pointed out to me above around 3kHz.

So I need replacements, and there is a size restriction. To allow them to fit into the pods on the dash, they need to be:
*cut-out up to ~45mm (Sinfoni S25T = 45mm)
*overall diameter no bigger than 55mm (Sinfoni S25T = 52mm)
*fairly on-axis angling, but good off-axis performance prefered
*run 'active', so impedence/power handling/sensitivity not an issue
*capable of playing down to 3kHz without probs, so an Fs under 1kHz probably ideal
*not silly money; US$150 each plus postage is quite acceptable

Open to suggestions, and probably buy through Madisound, US. Purely from browsing (without much thought to the specs), I see:
Scanspeak Illuminator R2004/6020 ring radiator
Vifa 3/4" NE19VTS soft dome
Vifa 3/4" NE19VTA metal dome
Seas 1" 27TFFNC soft dome
Scanspeak Illuminator 3/4" D2004/6020 soft dome

[ryzaa]

Personal choice is the soft dome Illuminator.
The small format LPG is another option.
Other then that, I cannot think of much more out there.

However, if you wish to try both of those Vifa tweeters, I happen to have a set of both of them and am happy to ship them both to you [at your expense] to see how they go in your install

Ryan.

[shiny_car]

Cheers, I'm swayed towards Scanspeak too. If so, I won't waste your time with the Vifa's.

What's the likely audible different between the 'soft dome' and 'ring radiator'?

[syd-monster]

Fs under 1Khz?? really? hmm....


+1 on any soft dome that suits. Im not brand concious.

Edited by syd-monster, 01 April 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[peaandham]

Since your looking for something to well off Axis I would be incline to say the Soft Dome Illuminator, because if the RR Illuminator is anything like the Revalator RR than its something special you want on axis.

[268669♫]

Oh noooos

Not the sinfoni's. That's some bad luck. Any chance of salvage? Would you like me to take a look at them?

Scan rings would be good choice.

Would you like me to try and find some replacement sinfoni's?

Ant

[268669♫]

Tweeter and woofers going cheap in Italy at the moment mate. place a bid and you could get some back up woofers.

http://www.ebay.it/i...=item3cc40d7ce3

Ant

[ryzaa]

Generally ring radiators have poorer off axis response vs soft domes.
Plus there is normally a bit of a break up, which RRs generally cure, however the smaller 3/4 soft dome should be slightly better then a normal 1 inch soft dome on this behalf.

I have owned the Alpine variants of the illuminator RRs and personally wasnt excited by them., could be where I had them, but had them active on axis for awhile and they still werent that great. Could have been Alpine's 'magic' touch though..

I cant tell you how the Vifa's are, as I havent used them yet

[shiny_car]

Oh noooos

Not the sinfoni's. That's some bad luck. Any chance of salvage? Would you like me to take a look at them?

Scan rings would be good choice.

Would you like me to try and find some replacement sinfoni's?

Ant

Unfortunately, a blast of pink noise at full volume must have overpowered them. 'Open circuit' with the multimeter. Probably not worth attempting a repair. Sad.

I've messaged that Seller in ITA to see if they will post out here. Definitely an option. Thanks pal.

Otherwise, a pair of soft dome Illuminators will be ordered.

[muzzy66]

For a change this is a DIY topic that it's hard for me to give 100% confident feedback on!

If there was the option of the larger Illuminator (D3004/6020-00) it would be a no brainer for me, but the 3/4" version I unfortunately don't have any expereince with. I can only really go off assumptions based on what I've read combined with my experience with the rest of the neo-illuminator range, and based on those factors I would say the D2004/6020 would be the one to go for.

I have compared the larger 1" version to every neo tweeter I could get my hands on, and crossed over appropriately none of them could come close to either of the two Scanspeak 1" model (shallow chamber or deep chamber). The SB29 was probably the next best, but it's even bigger then the 1" Scan so clearly not an option. The Seas 27TFFNC wasn't even close, getting quite tinny at times comparatively - clearly much higher distortion then the Scanspeak (though stilld ecent by most standards).

The other option is the Ring version you also listed - it's not going to give you as good off axis response most likely, but if your aim is to minimise reflections that might help. If you have them anything more then 30 deg off axis I'd go the non-ring version. In fact, even 30 deg off axis the Ring model seems to roll off significantly earlier (though also smoother).

I guess it depends on what you want. The ring model seems smoother off axis, but with less top end extension. The regular model seems a bit more ragged, but then has slightly better output above 10khz off axis..

You know, looking at the graphs I think I'd go for the Ring model (R2004-6020). I know a local place that might be able to source them for you, so drop me a PM if you're curious! I know they have the reglar version, not sure about the ring model.

Could be a blessing in disguise - you just might find them a nice improvement over the Sinfoni

Edited by muzzy66, 01 April 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[ryzaa]

I am pretty sure Europe Audio list a 1 inch version of the soft dome, I may be wrong though.

[muzzy66]

Cheers, I'm swayed towards Scanspeak too. If so, I won't waste your time with the Vifa's.

What's the likely audible different between the 'soft dome' and 'ring radiator'?

I would say the Ring Radiator will probably sound a little smoother and cleaner, while the Soft Dome will probably sound very nearly as smooth/clean but a little more 'Airy'. I hate using these types of subjectively describers, but can't think of how else I can put it! I have found this to be the case with the large R3004-6020 versus the D3004-6600, and in this case the FR chart seems to also look that way.

The FR on that Ring Radiator looks mighty smooth....now that you've drawn my attention to it I think I might even order a set next pay for the Alfa. Might use it instead of the 1" soft dome in the Alfa

[2LOUD2OLD]

I use the R2004-602000, although they have only had minimal use so far
i quite enjoy them. I was running them with only my midbass for a couple of days between getting my midrange in and enjoyed them. a very smooth sound to them, though mine are mounted on axis, not really sure how they will perform off axis, but from all reports not as badly as RR are known for. Didn't do too well in the last comp on the highs with them installed, but i suspect that was more the midrange being a little rough which were crossed at 7.1k rather than the tweeters.

As Pete said a good option if less than 30degress off axis, but better if you can get them on axis.

funnily enough your other options were all other tweeters that were on my short list, but decided to go with the RR after the success I had with my old Vifa XT25s
I think the only other tweeter that was on my shortlist were the LPG tweets.

[shiny_car]

Thanks for all the ongoing discussion guys. Very helpful.

I'll have them in time for the next round of MEASQ I can attend - not Rd4 unfortunately.

[SQXPRT]

I take it the piccolo's don't fit?

I'd go the scan Domes. V.nice sound. - light and 'airy' as Muzzy suggested.

I always found the rings too hard-sounding, and off-axis is not smooth, causing smearing of the highs.

[muzzy66]

I take it the piccolo's don't fit?

I'd go the scan Domes. V.nice sound. - light and 'airy' as Muzzy suggested.

I always found the rings too hard-sounding, and off-axis is not smooth, causing smearing of the highs.

With the XT25's I have found the same, but I didn't find that issue at all with the larger Scanspeak Ring Radiators - they were uncanilly smooth. As long as you're dead on axis that is! In the case of these little Illuinator versions though, they seem much better off axis then the other variants, and the datasheet suggests they are very close to the dome version in that regard (only smoother).

I'd be very eager to hear the two side by side!

[data_mine]

I'd be very eager to hear the two side by side!

Well if you buy the RR's you said a few posts back, I went for the 1" domes (small chamber) so we can compare.

[2LOUD2OLD]

Well if you buy the RR's you said a few posts back, I went for the 1" domes (small chamber) so we can compare.

pretty sure Pete already has the 1" domes, and I already have the 3/4" RR

[data_mine]

Well he'd better hurry up and order the RR's so he can compare, and write us all up a 100 page manifesto on the results.

[muzzy66]

Haha comparing the 1" to the 3/4" may not be apples-to-apples though, and to compare them fairly it has to be in a controlled environment (with the tweeter being the only real variable). Any other means won't bring an accurate conclusion.

That said, I did just order myself an RTA/Measuring system which should arrive this week which measures just about everything you could need aside from TS specs (plan to order the latter next pay).

[SQXPRT]

I've dne a comparison of R2904 vs. D3004. The rings are only better if right on-axis, and then they're still harsher in my opinion. still prefer domes.

[muzzy66]

I know that the R2904 / D2904 series tweeters do have a slightly rougher top end response due to the design of the faceplate of the time. I've seen some tests where the 6600, 7100 and Vifa equivalent faceplates were all compared, and they found that the 6600 had faceplate was the best followed by the Vifa, and the 7100 being the worst of the three.

I haven't heard the R2904 so I can't confirm, but I did hear the R3004 (with the new full size Illuminator faceplace) and that one was incredibly smoother. Definately a little smoother then the AirCirc IMO, albeit defiantely (as you said) not as good off axis.

On paper the Illuminator faceplate seems to smooth out the top end response of both the RR and the AirCirc quite nicely, but not sure how they'd do with the smaller neo faceplate.

One of us will find out soon!

[simplesq]

Richard, Crescendo T2RB would be the go, similar sound to the Scanspeak softies and almost as good as the Crescendo T3. If I had to ditch my Piccolo's for a smaller format tweeter these would go in for sure, Go "Team Air" ...

[shiny_car]

Ha,ha, cheers pal!

[SQXPRT]

I know where there's a set of T1R's for sale - they fit all the size requirements, and only ~15mm deep

[shiny_car]

Thanks, but I've already decided I'm going to give the Scans a try.