48 replies to this topic

[D34M0N.inc]

Thought this could interest a few people in VIC especially and spread the word on P Platers new laws.

P Platers up until now had to get exemption to drive turbo vehicles even ones that are low powered such as the GOLF mentioned in the article with around 120kw or so.

Now the P plater car rating is based of Power to Weight ratio.

130kw per tonne or less.

http://news.drive.co...0518-1yulp.html


This is a good thing for people wanting turbo diesel utes and little turbo'd cars etc. Allot more options now for P Platers.

Hopefully all other states follow suit (If they have the no turbo rule to)

[Lunchbox.inc]

you'll also find that it only applies to vehicles with the power to weight ratio printed on the ID tags... which are actually very few and far between...

so not ALL turbo cars with a power to weight ration of under 130kw per tonne will be allowed...


i personally think this is a silly rule change, infact i don't think power capping like this is a solution at all... to put it into perspective a perfectly stock VR V6 commodore will happily wind off the dial if given the space, will easily spin the tires in the 1st 2 gears and do just about anything a p-plater would need it to do to cause issues... and it falls WELL beneath the 130kw per tonne quota and it's naturally aspirated...

unfortunately capping power level like this doesn't help alot... a little maybe, and that little bit is definitely worth it, but i think all p-platers should be in significantly crapper cars... lol

[bobo333]

crap cars FTW, i started my Ps in a KE70 rolla without enough power to pull the skin off a pudding and still managed to write it off, power caps are pointless...

[Lunchbox.inc]

crap cars FTW, i started my Ps in a KE70 rolla without enough power to pull the skin off a pudding and still managed to write it off, power caps are pointless...

exactly... i have no doubt that combined, we could EASILY write off even a golf cart...

at the same time however i feel there still needs to be some kind of power cap in place, just because p-platers could manage to write themselves off in a 35kw of datsun fury doesn't mean that it couldn't get a hell of alot worse given a 600kw skyryne...

just that there needs to be something different done, instead of just clamping down on power restrictions... exactly what could be done i have no idea, but somewhere, hidden away in some secret military installment under ground, there's some pretty clever people getting paid alot of money to figure that out for me... lol

[SAM77H]

skyryne...

. Seriously though the power to weight thing could save lives if done properly........ except when the kids sneak out in dads GTR (like what happened a few years backon the central coast. I think that crash left 3 dead and GTR became a 500 piece puzzle)

[TheBear]

QLD has been this way for a while I thought? While it allows low power turbo's in QLD I think it also eliminates the new SIDI 3.6 litre commodores? Doesn't affect me so I am not really up on the laws. Either way it is a good thing.

[Captn_Awesome]

Vic laws used to be 130kW/t

I actually agree with power to weight ratio laws - sure you might still be able to write off and possibly even kill your self in a low powered vehicle but you've got a far greater chance in a high powered vehicle withouth experiance. I hopped into my old mans SS the other week. Thats a "collectors" car but its only a two fluffy three with a 4 cog and a 4 barrel. Even with several years experiance and having driven that car several times including learning to drive in it it still managed to give me a bit of a fright when in 3rd gear going up a hill in the wet it decided to step out on me at 90KPH. I have no doubt that in the hands of many P plate drivers that could have resulted in a much different outcome than the embarrased red face I had feeling like a dickhead letting it do that in 6pm friday night peninsula traffic.

I had a VL turbo as my first car when I got my licence which worked out to around 115kw/t. I lost my licence in that vehicle after TMU estimated my speed at 50kph over the speed limit (I was fair honkin' and it was more like 100kph over the limit).
Now the fact is I had already collected 6 demerit points by that stage (I hadn't had my licence 7 months yet) In reality I should have been given a boot up the arse and told to get around on two feet and a heart beat the first time I got booked for having the right boot to close to the firewall.
Fact is that even that VL-T which was under the power to weight had way too much power for an inexperianced driver. I ripped skids, used to get up to the drags on a wednesday thursday night. Used to race old men in their mid life crisis HSVs. I had way too much confidence and way too much throttle available.
Even having several mates killed in car and motorcycle accidents didnt stop me.

When I lost my licence I sold the VL-t and bought a monaro but I didnt get it registered in time (long story) so dad gave me his old rangie to drive till i bought something else to get around in (now thats trust concidering I'd stuck his last rangie on its lid on his birthday right before I lost my licence...). It wasnt quick. I wasnt going to beat anything worth bragging about so I didnt race. My driving style changed to a more relaxed less "showy" type of driving and I managed to stay out of trouble with the law for the most part. Then I got my arse into a crap box old mazda coupe. This thing actually had a reasonable amount of poke but my driving style had changed. I dont think I ever got a fine in that thing.

I would actually like to see 0% interest finance on brand new 5start ancap rating cars built locally that meet the P:W ratio and perhaps some other kind of TAC standard to be sold to P platers. This would a.) help car manufacturers. b.) get safer cars on the road c.) get p platers into newer safer cars.

I'd also like to see annual green slip testing in Victoria to get crap boxes off the road. Vehicles with restricted enthusiast registration only driven on special occasions have to get a full check every 12 months yet plenty of people are putting their kids into crap box cars that havent seen any maintenance in years on standard rego.

Id also like to see etag type rego "stickers" - that way unregistered cars could be tracked on toll ways and major arterial roads. Also the deletion of the law requiring P platers to display P plates - these act as a "race me" sticker. I know when I was a P platter and saw another P plater in a tricked up car it was an invitation to race (or perve if it was a chick driving). They serve no purpose. L plates DO serve a purpose and should be kept.

Youre never going to cure stupidity and plain and simply we all have moments of brain fade. Hell one of the reasons I drive the car I drive is because it doesnt go that fast. Same reason I wont let myself get a bike. If I get into a car with any serious power my brain stops working and I drive like a mad man. I cant help it it just happens. I'm getting better but when I was younger - holy crap! anything with a motor and I'd be driving it like I stole it. I remember holding dads 350Z sideways down the road. Taking his E36 328ic off the clock. Mates VR/VS commodores sideways everywhere. I have had sober people litterally get out of the car and spew because they were crapting so much. I also had other mates who wouldnt hop in a car with anyone else because they "trusted" my driving (idiots in hindsight).

What you can do is try limit the number of people with access to vehicles which an "excessively" dangerous in inexperianced hands and thats exactly what these laws do. Mind you i think torque and torque/power curves in relation to weight should also be taken into account but thats a huge can of worms

Edited by Captn_Awesome, 23 May 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[~Spyne~]

I must be getting old, I agree with EVERYTHING you have written there, Kirkles.
I especially love this bit

I would actually like to see 0% interest finance on brand new 5start ancap rating cars built locally that meet the P:W ratio and perhaps some other kind of TAC standard to be sold to P platers. This would a.) help car manufacturers. b.) get safer cars on the road c.) get p platers into newer safer cars.

I'd also like to see annual green slip testing in Victoria to get crap boxes off the road. Vehicles with restricted enthusiast registration only driven on special occasions have to get a full check every 12 months yet plenty of people are putting their kids into crap box cars that havent seen any maintenance in years on standard rego.

Id also like to see etag type rego "stickers" - that way unregistered cars could be tracked on toll ways and major arterial roads. Also the deletion of the law requiring P platers to display P plates - these act as a "race me" sticker. I know when I was a P platter and saw another P plater in a tricked up car it was an invitation to race (or perve if it was a chick driving). They serve no purpose. L plates DO serve a purpose and should be kept.

[Gonadman2]

Even with several years experiance and having driven that car several times including learning to drive in it it still managed to give me a bit of a fright when in 3rd gear going up a hill in the wet it decided to step out on me at 90KPH.

My FG F6 does that on the freeway at 100km/h. Its not frightening (except for other road users maybe?) - its super fun. Its a driving characteristic that should be publicised so that FPV might be forced to do something about it though.

[Stone]

My FG F6 does that on the freeway at 100km/h. Its not frightening (except for other road users maybe?) - its super fun. Its a driving characteristic that should be publicised so that FPV might be forced to do something about it though.

No traction control?

Edited by Stone, 23 May 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Captn_Awesome]

^ yeah surely traction control stops that?
The SS normally doesnt have enough power to do it but the combination of old rubber and wet roads made for an interesting experiance I wasnt expecting because the secondaries had varnished themselves shut as the car hasnt been driven in so long and obviously the motor had got warm enough to crack the blind next thing the secondaries opened and I suddenly had a sh*t load more right boot than I thought. Normally a car stepping out doesnt bother me - this just totally caught me by suprise.

[damosyzygy]

Its a pity they are so keen to look into the ability of the cars and not the drivers.
If I had my way Id have mandatory psych testing for all new drivers. Base limitations on the results of that.
There are far too many idiots on the road that just never seem to learn and unfortunately its hardwired in them.

[peaandham]

I must be getting old, I agree with EVERYTHING you have written there, Kirkles.
I especially love this bit

I must agree there, some terrific ideas.

[Mr. Drifter]

I also agree with those ideas. But my crapbox is a good crapbox

[Captn_Awesome]

Its a pity they are so keen to look into the ability of the cars and not the drivers.
If I had my way Id have mandatory psych testing for all new drivers. Base limitations on the results of that.
There are far too many idiots on the road that just never seem to learn and unfortunately its hardwired in them.

You would never get it to work. I could "bluff" my way through any psych test and still be a lunatic on the road. You would have to do evaluations on ones perceptions and levels of fear. Smart cookies would get around this easily. Someone who has a low fear threshold is going to find it easier to obide by road safety laws than someone with a higher fear threshold. But then "nervous nellie" drivers I would say end up encouraging other drivers to make stupid on road manouvers to get around them because they're frustrating to be behind.

Its like saying all drivers should do advanced driver courses - IMO yeah they should be it should be when getting their learners and their parents (or who ever is taking them for driving "lessons") should be forced to do them too - ie you cannot take a learner driver out unless you have undertaken some kind of training to do so. Giving a kid advanced driving lessons for their 18th is stupid. I've done them and yes I learned a lot from the theory lessons in the class room. But then they got us out doing actual driving and all it did was reinstate the confidence in my "skills" that they'd wiped out in the theory lesson.

If you can get kids in doing once a quarter theory lessons and going over safety issues and making the term for L plates minimum 12 months rather than 3 for any persons under 25 then I think this would have a better impact. I also think that part of your learners should include an actual driving component with an instructor - not as part of your test but as a skills building excersize. You can get your learners permit and not actually know the brake from the accellerator. My cousin had her learners for nearly 12 months before she even hopped into the drivers seat of a car and was planning on getting her Ps as soon as she turned 18. WTF?!

Then we should encourage legal off street racing. Get P platers out of the industrial estates and on to the real drag strip.
In Victoria Calder Park host legal off streets once a fortnight. Thats great - except the biggest growth corridor is over in the south east not in the north west.
Pakenham is the home of drag racing in Australia and is in the south east yet no drag strip and its right in the H1 growth corridor and is perfectly flat land (drained swamp land) and they wonder why kids around noble park / dandenong / frankston / narre warren etc are out on a thursday night lighting 'em up at the traffic lights. They litterally have "no where to go".

Then theres circuit racing. I'll admit going fast in a straight line doesnt do a great deal for me so circuit racing appeals. But trying to get involved in circuit racing is a task in itself. Unless you know someone in it then trying to get info on how to get started is daunting. Even in this day and age with the interwebs these things are all based on making a call to the club secretary - if they answer their phones. Their needs to be support behind motorkhana clubs etc to make these things accessable to the average P plater.

By offering legal alternatives you give the lower end risk takers an alternative. Your never going to elliminate risk takers all together so its a task of risk minimisation.

[Hez]

I'd like to see it go in the way if anything.
P-Platers can only drive 4cyl cars. Honestly, why do P-Platers need a 6cyl cars anyway?


The things VicRoads should be doing instead:

Stopping people from other countries getting there licences transferred without having them go through a driving test.
Stop P-Platers and extremely short Asian women from buying "Toorak Trucks" (Large SUVs)
Restrict learners from driving Turbos & V8's as well... They just get power hungry and don't want a lower powered car after driving there parents 160kw 6cyl.

I'm a P-Plater, and I'm honestly sick of tired of all the crap we deal with from older drivers.
Guess what? It the older drivers who I see on there phones everywhere I go, speeding, not indicating, not stopping at STOP signs the list goes on.
I plan to place my GoPro in my car PERMANENTLY and post there videos on youtube, because a lot of people need there eyes opened.

The Police
If you report someone who's on there mobile, they should do something.
If you report someone who's just done a burnout outside your house, and you have a number plate, the cops should do something. But they can't/don't.

The whole system is flawed and broken in so many ways.,,,,

[Captn_Awesome]

Ok why do P-platers need engines bigger than 4cylinder?

How about the P-plater who is a hydraulic specialist who needs to drive a fully loaded patrol or landcruiser cab chassis to sites to repair earthmoving equipment?
Or the P-plater who works for a boat or caravan business who needs to move 24ft caravans to customers premises or to other trades for options etc?

Then you have the arguement that say for example the current shape nissan patrol turbo diesels. The 6 cylinder is only 117.7kW and the 4 cylinder is 127kW. The 4 cylinder is also more "peaky" with its output due to VNT.

There are hundreds of reasons why p platers need or simply want a 6 or 8 + cylinder engined vehicle.
I do long distance travel - I wouldnt want to be in a little 4 cylinder for long distances.

Why should P platers not be allowed to drive SUVs (toorak "tractors")?
What happens if I live in a country area or own country property and I want an SUV so I can drive into the paddocks to check fences and heard cattle or pull a paddock rake or shift a bit of agricultural machinery?

Power to weight is a much better option than a cylinder or induction restriction. This is a better law and if you had it in conjunction with my prior suggestion about 0% loans then you would effectively encourage people to make the choice to sit their arses into a 4cylinder / more p-plate freindly and safer vehicle.

As for power hungry I was power hungry LONG before getting my Ls I grew up around cars and I'm a reasonably "mechanically" minded person (though more theory over practical) so chasing ponies is something that is a natural instict to me. I was tinkering with getting the lawn mower to run better when I was about 8 years old. Funnily enough whilst I did drive high powered vehicles on my Ls it was actually a KA ford laser that I did most of my "learner driving" in and was the vehicle that taught me the most about how to have fun in a car. Ripping hand brake turns, FWD slides etc. and being a warm blooded male with a very under powered 4cylinder carbi fed vehicle at my disposal I also learnt about how to get more air and fuel into the old girl to get more power out. It was a cheap crap box and in hindsight a very unsafe vehicle by the standards of the time I was learning to drive - and even more so by todays standards!

As for stopping people getting their licence transfered - I do to some extent agree. But its a can of worms. See we have agreements with most (if not all) countries so you can apply for an international drivers licence so you can drive on the roads OS. The same applies locally. IMO its f***ing dangerous and as such we have signs on many of the major tourist roads stating that in Australia we drive on the left side of the road. I've heard of more than one person being killed by a tourist in a hire 4wd on outback roads driving on the wrong side and I personally know of one bloke who wasnt killed but had his car written off by a similar instance.
But then when you head OS you want to jump in a car and drive - particularly if you travel frequently overseas.
I guess the only way around that is to make is so all "international drivers" have to complete a "crash course" in driving in Australia before they can drive on an international licence and then a full sitdown teast before getting a transfer.
But what are the on flow effects from that? and do you require Australian drivers to sit an "international" drivers test before allowing them to obtain an international drivers licence?
Its not a simple thing licencing yet people want to blanket fix issues we have. You come from Box hill so you come from an area with a high immigrant population and with that comes a lot of cultures - including some driving cultures/habbits which aren't "the norm" to us. Thats life get used to it.
I used to work in Moorabbin and the driving culture around the side streets of Moorabbin is very differnt to the culture around dandenong. Moorabbin is a nightmare during peak times cars, forklifts, trucks, vans etc every where. People just stop wack on their hazzards in the middle of the road and you have to find a way around them. If you did that in dandenong people would drive through you. You get used to it and you drive to the conditions and areas driving culture.

Driving in Melbourne is different to Sydney which is different to Adelaide which is different to Perth and then City driving is different to suburban driving which is different to country driving which is different to township driving. Drive to the conditions. Be cautious, alert and sensible.

Based on your comments you seem to think your a pretty good driver. But I'm sure that your far from the safest and best driver out there - but your perception is that its the older drivers, the asians, the women etc.
I used to be the same - I thought I was a great driver. But I'm not and as soon as you realise your driving is just as flawed as that of those who you criticize and you pull your head in and worry about what your doing the better off you'll be. Thats something that comes with maturity.

Edited by Captn_Awesome, 28 May 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[broadz]

Vic laws used to be 130kW/t

Actually it was 125 kw/tonne prior to the rule change of no turbos at all

I've been there/done that and fought with the courts and won against Victoria Police during the ownership of my 1998 123.5kw/tonne WRX.

Now I'm older and far more sensible, I don't think its a praticularly good idea at all: everyone knows how easy it is to get big power out of turbo'd cars. Take a Standard 1998 WRX, add a big V34 turbo, add an exhaust, front mounted intercooler, some extra boost and a tune and you have a 300+kw monster capable of demolishing ferraris/porsche/lamborghinis. Take Rick (Mad89) his WRX looks VERY stealth. There is very little sign of it having >300kw and not much gives away its potential to kill late model ferraris.

Another example is Kirkles (Captn Awesome): Some VL turbo's are making massive power upwards of 500kw on a heavily modified but original engine block. Whilst being P Plate legal with a measily 130kw and 1300kg, a few minor changes can easily have those figures 250-300kw.

Perhaps have a blanket ban on particular types of "borderline" power/weight performance orienated cars.

Edited by broadz, 28 May 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Captn_Awesome]

Yeah I thought it was but then wasnt sure so went with 130kW thinking they just reverted to the old law. There also was restrictions on top of that - ie some vehicles that met the P:W ratio were on a list of banned vehicles.

AS for your comments about adding boost, coolers, exhausts ect. These are things that could be checked during annual inspections. There will always be people who get around these laws but again its risk minimisation.
The other thing is that there are now mobile dynos out there. I believe at this stage they are mobile test beds for testing suspension road worthiness but im sure given time mobile dynos for power output will be released and P platers with suspected "high power" vehicles will be pulled over booze bus style and have their vehicles power output tested.
Again you're never going to beat everthing but combined with the EPA (remembering your only supposed to have either an induction OR an exhaust modification not both) at such terminals you could discourage the old wastegate bleeder high boost P plater.

[Hez]

Obviously P-Platers that need the car for work could get exceptions like they do now, but for daily driving I don't see why a 6cyl is needed, even on long trips.

Fair enough with the SUV's though, but I think you see what I was getting at.

I've been living in Box Hill for over 10 years now and I can tell you right now, the amount of idiot drivers on the road is only getting worse.

I consider myself an excellent driver. I obey all the rules and understand what my car is capable of. For someone who's never been in a car with me, let alone met me, to assume otherwise is just flawed.

Mobile dynos would be awesome, but at the current time I'd like to see more random checks of vehicles, not just the "pull over for random breath test". Obviously certain locations and suburbs are going to be different.

[Captn_Awesome]

I don't see why your so obsessed with 4cylinder vehicles.
What benefit is a 4cylinder restriction over P:W? People are entitled to a choice of what type of vehicle suits them. Surfers might want a family wagon to transport surfboards and most family wagons are 6 cylinder. By your suggestion they should be getting around with their surfboards stuffed in a hyundai getz.
Or what about the P plater who rides trail bikes - this fella currently sticks his bike in the back of his falcon ute - dont think thats going to fit in a proton jumbuck...

I consider myself an excellent driver. I obey all the rules and understand what my car is capable of. For someone who's never been in a car with me, let alone met me, to assume otherwise is just flawed.

The fact you consider yourself an excellent driver, you've bought the capabilities of your vehicle to the table and that you suggest you obey ALL the rule tells me that my assumption is far from flawed. I don't even know ALL the laws and I highly doubt you do either. road safety laws change regularly and I would be impressed if anyone (who wasn't employed in the field making the laws) knew all the road safety laws let alone abided by every single one 100% of the time.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying your a bad driver. Hell you're probably a good driver. An excellent driver I doubt. A driver who obides by every single law I doubt. Theres nothing wrong with that. You just have to realise that your not "perfect" and neither are other people. The sooner you realise this this better road user you will be. Part of being a good driver is not getting your feathers ruffled by the actions of other drives, driving defensively but not agressively, being alert, being cautious, being conscientious, being smart, being safe etc etc etc.
If you display these traits 100% of the time then - welcome to the forums Jesus! its good to have you around.
Do you sh*t golden nuggets also? I didn't think so

I think its great that you, as a P plater, are interested in improving road safety. But I think you're facing the problem a lot of young people face of not being able to see the big picture. The people making up safety laws aren't dickheads, although we all feel thats debatable at times. They're smart cookies and they are presented with eons of information, research & statistics of road users and their needs/wants and they make informed decisions on how best to tackle road safety. If these guys really felt that restricting P platers to 4cylinder vehicles would work and would be benificial it would have happened long ago. Fact is that many 4 cylinder vehicles are more powerful than 6 cylinder vehicles. Many people need or want a larger vehicle. Theres plenty of mothers on P's how does a young mum with 3 kids under 5 fit them into a mitsubishi mirage in all their child seats? Simple fact is that a falcon, magna, commodore or small SUV is a more practical vehicle in such cases. But you can't have a loop hole that parents with children can have a full sized family car but all other P platers can only have a small-medium 4 cylinder car.

[beastvs]

I don't think changing the laws will do anything, Its all to do with the mentality of the young driver. *touch wood* im now 23 and haven't lost a single point or even had a parking fine. Yet i learnt to drive in a 300RWKW+ V8 commodore. I have owned a turbo skyline since i was 20. Yet i have mates the same age who have written off multiple cars, most of them being complete crap heaps like rolla's from the 80's and nissan pulsars etc. Unfortunately you cannot teach common sense. No mater how much you restrict someone if they are going to be an idiot in a car it wont matter what badge is on the front or how many turbo's it has.

Not that i think it will have a major difference, But i think all people sitting the L's test should be forced to watch a graphic video of car crashes etc. Like i said i dont think it will make a huge difference but if it makes at least one idiot stop and think before he kills someone then job well done in my opinion.

[bobo333]

watching videos of car crashes does nothing "that wont happen to me"

neither does restricting power or car size or shape (I got in more trouble in my old KE70 rolla and N13 pulsar than i ever will in my 5.8L V8 F100)

making people drive 4 cylinders is just silly (the reason i traded my Barina in for the F truck is i cant go to bunnings and get 10 sheets of MDF and 30m of pine in the Barina, i can, and have, in the F100 though), not to mention the multiple standard or near standard 4 cyl econoboxes ive been in in the hills at well over twice the speed limit while negotiating tight tree lined twisty roads

if they really want to curb the road toll they need to make it easier to lose your license and harder to get it back, and most importantly, TRAIN DRIVERS HOW TO DRIVE!!!!!

how many die when they hit a dirt/grease/wet patch of road and slide into a tree?
how many people have you heard of dieing in reverse parallel parking accidents?
and what to they teach us how to do when on our Ls?
exactly...

[Mr. Drifter]

Limiting them to 4 cylinders doesn't stop them being a dickhead in them. I'd know, I wrote off a 4pot. I wrote off my eg civic being a d***. went a bit fast around a corner in the wet >.>
But to be honest, I've had less issues with the first ge- actually no, I've had lots of issues with that...
The only thing that'll stop them is experience.
Giving them skid pan training will only make them think they're indestructible, cause they know how to react if the situation does happen. I mean, it'll make some shat their pants and drive safe, but others won't.
Experience will only deter them. And even then, probably not for long, unless it's serious. As I said, I wrote off my eg, and I got back into the drivers seat that night (although I was freaking out... driving 40 along the highway >.>)
I'd say one of the best things would be to give them more track time to get all of their 'hooning' out of their system.
I don't know how effective it'd be, but it seems like the best answer. unless somebody comes up with some sort of crash simulator that we can knock people out for, then put in, thinking it's normal.

[Dylby1]

Limiting drivers to 4 pot vehicles will do jack all. If people wanna drive like a knob, they will do it in any car they have access to. Regardless of how many cylinders it has.

That's a stupid and kneejerk conclusion to come to, same as the initial turbo restriction was

[bobo333]

of course they will never stop the dickheads who go out and do silly crap, (i should know i used to be one of them) but proper driver training WILL help stop the people who arent being dickheads but still manage to lose it in the wet/oil patch/dirt road sliding into a tree...

ive seen lots of mates write there car off doing something stupid, as soon as they got back in a car they were doing stupid things again

it may sound harsh but the only way to stop someone from doing stupid crap is to let them hit the tree, they wont be doing anything stupid anymore when there a paraplegic or in a coma or worse.

what the government needs to do is concentrate not on the people doing stupid crap but the people who are just unfit to drive, old fogies that have no idea whats going on around them, the wankers driving in the overtaking lane 20kmh under the speed limit holding up traffic, the mums who are too busy telling off their kids in the back seat to concentrate on the red light they just ran and the middle aged people that have never had a crash so have no idea what to do if they get themselves in a new situation

[KMAN9]

Yeah I do agree that there has to be a time and a place (in a controlled environment) where people can do a bit of racing and what not. that way they get a place to burn off a little steam and therefore will be less likely to do it on the road. If they do have police and community controlled events where you can take your car and push it around a bit (under supervision and after some lessons) they will calm down and be less likely to do it on the roads endangering others as well as themselves. Put it this way, if you have a dog who is hyperactive an running all through your house, you dont scold them and tell them to behave, you take them out to the park, let them run themselves silly and they will be spent by the time they get home.

[Timmeh]

Its actually reasonably simple to lessen the problem - educate, and instill some common sense into your kids. Of course you'll still get people pushing the limits because there is always exceptions, but there are way too many people driving like idiots as fully licensed adults, then wondering why their teenage children drive like morons. Maybe people with too many driving offences should be BANNED from teaching anyone how to drive for a certain period? And a mandatory defensive driving course BEFORE getting your P plates?

[lupin]

One basic problem in this country.

People are taught how to get their licences not how to drive.

[Damologist]

There isn't really anything too wrong with the licencing system. Put it like this, I can't be assed trying to find the facts, but of how many P-platers on the road, how many are crashing or causing accidents? Let's say it's 10%, I think that sounds fair.
With that 10%, maybe 25% is from inexperience. The other 75% would be from being dickheads, showing off or trying to drive like a race car driver.

To me a 2.5% fail rate that is perhaps attributable to Vic Roads, is fairly acceptable
The fact that 7.5% of P-Platers want to drive like dickheads is attributable to their own mentality and you will never change that. Ever. Some people are just idiots and don't care. Give them a car with only 80kw/tonne and I'll bet they can still do 120kph in a 50 zone if they want. You just can't stop that.

Even back when I was 17, me and my mate (who didn't even have his learners) used to go out in whatever new car he had bought for like $200 that week, throw some stolen plates on it, do a petty run, and cruise around ripping up vacant blocks, running over peoples bins on bin night or going to the sport reserve and rallying around like dickheads. Why? Because we didn't care. But, in our defence, we never sped or even attempted to drive fast, I guess that just never interested us.

So how do you prevent someone else in the same situation from doing 120kph down the main street. Or stop them from "welding" their diff up, and going out drifting in the wet? At 17 with no learners permit? You can't control someones mentality with laws.

Any car, regardless of power, aspiration, or drive type, is dangerous in the wrong hands. A license is nothing more than a card that says you are allowed to operate a car on the road. And that's all it ever will be.