thanks for anyone kindly reply.
PHD
0
speaker midmass and subwoofer bass
Started by PHD, Sep 29 2005 09:54 PM
9 replies to this topic
#1
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 09:54 PM
hey dude. i have a question about the speaker mid-bass and subwoofer bass. is the subwoofer bass more important than speaker midbass when you play SQ? what is the difference between that? i have a friend told me that if your speaker can't have mid-bass, this is not good speaker. is it right? as far as i know, the high end speaker main duty are producing clear vocal, create sound image and sound stage. it is not necessary to produce mid-bass because all bass would come from the subwoofer only. mid-bass is not necessary. what do you think and please give me some opinions.
thanks for anyone kindly reply.
PHD
thanks for anyone kindly reply.
PHD
#2
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 10:49 PM
Generally...
Sub bass = frequencies under 100hz
mid bass = frequencies between 100hz and 500hz or so.
Subs play sub bass, mids play midbass, they generally are crossed around 3khz or so (in standard 2-way systems) hence mids are also playing the vocal range.
There was a good reference up somewhere that showed what a frequencies some instruments/musical things are...
Can't seem to find it though.
Sub bass = frequencies under 100hz
mid bass = frequencies between 100hz and 500hz or so.
Subs play sub bass, mids play midbass, they generally are crossed around 3khz or so (in standard 2-way systems) hence mids are also playing the vocal range.
There was a good reference up somewhere that showed what a frequencies some instruments/musical things are...
Can't seem to find it though.
#3
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 10:50 PM
To answer your question - Midbass is very important in SQ, much more important than sub bass..You still need some sub bass in a SQ setup crossed over low enough that you wont actually notice it coming from the sub, which is traditionally installed in the rear of the car.
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*** 07 Ford territory AWD ***
Previous Rides:
*** 2000 Lancer Wagon *** 10 CAASQ Trophies
*** MY04 WRX STi ***
*** 94 Toyota Supra ***
*** VL Calais 5L Blown ***
System in Progress:
- Pioneer P9 Combo
- Hertz Mille MLK3 Active - Amps: Hertz HP2 - Hertz HP4
- 2x Hertz Mille 10" Sub - Amp: Hertz HP1D
- Optima D31M 900cca
www.fhrxstudios.com
#4
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 10:56 PM
Here it is!!
In the SQ section, not in the Tutorial/Technical section...
http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=39668
In the SQ section, not in the Tutorial/Technical section...
http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=39668
#5
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 11:04 PM
when i turn the sub off in my car there is not alot of midbass but what is there give the subbass the imaging, same as the tweeters give the midbass it's imaging cue's
you need each one to be spot on apart from the sub bass that gets it's cue's from the other frequencys... of you get what i mean..
you need each one to be spot on apart from the sub bass that gets it's cue's from the other frequencys... of you get what i mean..
QUOTE (RMA @ Feb 6 2010, 01:22 AM) My only regrets are:
Selling Fudd an amp (for a fraction of the real price) that had been returned by Autobarn Geelong which had been incorrectly used by AB Geelong and turned out to be faulty when Fudd started using it.
Whilst he was given a new amp after it could not be fixed, he never acknowledged any of the assistance given and bitches to this day about it.
Selling Fudd an amp (for a fraction of the real price) that had been returned by Autobarn Geelong which had been incorrectly used by AB Geelong and turned out to be faulty when Fudd started using it.
Whilst he was given a new amp after it could not be fixed, he never acknowledged any of the assistance given and bitches to this day about it.
www.fuddbutter.com
http://gallery.fuddbutter.com/zen/
MEASQ(CAASQ) Aust Champion 2005
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#6 Guest_Liquidity_*
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 11:11 PM
Okay, the subwoofer takes care of around 2 octaves of music, below and up to around 80-100hz.
Your front speakers, usually 6.5" split (components, ie a woofer and a seperate tweeter) play everything upwards, between them.
midbass is between 100 to roughly 500hz, from memory. thus, your front speakers are ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE for mid-bass.
For SQ, you all your speakers to blend together naturally. In a properly setup SQ system, you shouldnt really be able to hear the subwoofer as a seperate, overpowering speaker. It blends in, and fills out those lower 2 octaves of music.
The high end part is the tweeter, this takes care of upper vocals, cymbals, etc etc. the larger woofer takes care of the "kick" of drums, wood instruments, etc. Keep in mind that nearly every sound will have frequencies across the spectrum.
Also, mid-bass is directional. Your brain can tell what direction sounds are coming from when they are between about 100hz and...something like 2000hz....or somesuch. Anything below 100hz, like a subwoofer, and your brain doesnt know which direction the bass is coming from. This is one reason why a subwoofer mounted in the boot sounds fine in the cabin, your brain doesnt really know the sounds coming from behind.
However, set your subwoofer frequency to high (say, let it play up to 300hz), and go sit down and listen again. You will definently feel as though theres a muffled speaker in your boot, because your now playing directional sounds through the sub. Its easy to test/prove.
A subwoofer produces deep bass, the "whump". Your front speakers provide the "kick" in your chest, provides detail to the bass.
Think about it.
Would a bass drum beat sound crap if it was muffled?
Yes. You'd only hear low frequencies. THIS IS WHAT your sub makes!
Would a bass drum beat sound crap if there was no bass, but just the holllow kick?
Yes, you'd only hear that sharp, detailed kick, no low bass. THIS IS WHAT your front speakers do.
Get any great sounding bassy system, and turn of the front speakers. It will sound muddy and crap.
Get that same system, and turn off just the subwoofer. It will kick you in the chest, but sound hollow and weak.
so. For SQ, its all about making them blend nicely together.
Both the performance of a subwoofer, and that of the front speakers, is entirely dependent upon installation.
A set of $600 speakers, mounted craply with one screw, leaking air, to your doors, will not have nearly as much SQ (midbass "kick", overall richness to the sound) as a $150 pair of speakers that are well installed.
A $800 subwoofer in a box totally unsuited to it will get its shiny ass creamed by a $300 one in a built-for-the-sub, $200 custom box.
So, to answer your questions directly.
No, subwoofer bass isnt "more important". Sub-bass and mid-bass are very different creatures, and each are equally important. Jump in any car with a system, and try listening to it with just the fronts on, then just the sub on, and you'll see what i mean. Sure, some people like to turn the sub up more than others, and perhaps have a "sub heavy" sound, but the sub itself cant play all of what you will percieve as "Bass".
IF front speakers have been properly mounted/installed, and they are of a decent brand/make/price (say, $200 to $500) they should be fine. If they arent installed properly, its not the speakers fault. That said, each companies speakers sound different, some are more bassy, some are smoother, some are "brighter"....this is why you should always audition speakers before buying them.
Now...last but not least, i should address something.
Many people choose to mount small woofers/subwoofers directly in their doors. One per side. In such a case, yes, a subwoofer can play much higher than one in the boot...it doesnt matter if you get directional frequencies from sub's in the front doors, does it? You want all the sound up front anyway!
BUT
a door mounted sub still wont play midbass as clearly as a smaller speaker dedicated to doing this.
Oh, and one last thing.
If you've heard of crossovers?
A crossover is the point at which music goes to different speakers.
say i set a crossover point for my sub, at 100hz. All music below 100hz would go to my sub, all other music would crossover to the front speakers...thats a very basic explanation, but playing with crossovers (how high the frequencies are before they go to a different speaker) can also hugely affect how a system sounds, and how good/clear/loud the bass can get.
So....theres some light reading for ya.
edit : and damn, when i started writing that, nobody had replied
edit : hmm, i might even polish this up a fair bit and submit it as a tute/sticky
Your front speakers, usually 6.5" split (components, ie a woofer and a seperate tweeter) play everything upwards, between them.
midbass is between 100 to roughly 500hz, from memory. thus, your front speakers are ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE for mid-bass.
For SQ, you all your speakers to blend together naturally. In a properly setup SQ system, you shouldnt really be able to hear the subwoofer as a seperate, overpowering speaker. It blends in, and fills out those lower 2 octaves of music.
The high end part is the tweeter, this takes care of upper vocals, cymbals, etc etc. the larger woofer takes care of the "kick" of drums, wood instruments, etc. Keep in mind that nearly every sound will have frequencies across the spectrum.
Also, mid-bass is directional. Your brain can tell what direction sounds are coming from when they are between about 100hz and...something like 2000hz....or somesuch. Anything below 100hz, like a subwoofer, and your brain doesnt know which direction the bass is coming from. This is one reason why a subwoofer mounted in the boot sounds fine in the cabin, your brain doesnt really know the sounds coming from behind.
However, set your subwoofer frequency to high (say, let it play up to 300hz), and go sit down and listen again. You will definently feel as though theres a muffled speaker in your boot, because your now playing directional sounds through the sub. Its easy to test/prove.
A subwoofer produces deep bass, the "whump". Your front speakers provide the "kick" in your chest, provides detail to the bass.
Think about it.
Would a bass drum beat sound crap if it was muffled?
Yes. You'd only hear low frequencies. THIS IS WHAT your sub makes!
Would a bass drum beat sound crap if there was no bass, but just the holllow kick?
Yes, you'd only hear that sharp, detailed kick, no low bass. THIS IS WHAT your front speakers do.
Get any great sounding bassy system, and turn of the front speakers. It will sound muddy and crap.
Get that same system, and turn off just the subwoofer. It will kick you in the chest, but sound hollow and weak.
so. For SQ, its all about making them blend nicely together.
Both the performance of a subwoofer, and that of the front speakers, is entirely dependent upon installation.
A set of $600 speakers, mounted craply with one screw, leaking air, to your doors, will not have nearly as much SQ (midbass "kick", overall richness to the sound) as a $150 pair of speakers that are well installed.
A $800 subwoofer in a box totally unsuited to it will get its shiny ass creamed by a $300 one in a built-for-the-sub, $200 custom box.
So, to answer your questions directly.
No, subwoofer bass isnt "more important". Sub-bass and mid-bass are very different creatures, and each are equally important. Jump in any car with a system, and try listening to it with just the fronts on, then just the sub on, and you'll see what i mean. Sure, some people like to turn the sub up more than others, and perhaps have a "sub heavy" sound, but the sub itself cant play all of what you will percieve as "Bass".
IF front speakers have been properly mounted/installed, and they are of a decent brand/make/price (say, $200 to $500) they should be fine. If they arent installed properly, its not the speakers fault. That said, each companies speakers sound different, some are more bassy, some are smoother, some are "brighter"....this is why you should always audition speakers before buying them.
Now...last but not least, i should address something.
Many people choose to mount small woofers/subwoofers directly in their doors. One per side. In such a case, yes, a subwoofer can play much higher than one in the boot...it doesnt matter if you get directional frequencies from sub's in the front doors, does it? You want all the sound up front anyway!
BUT
a door mounted sub still wont play midbass as clearly as a smaller speaker dedicated to doing this.
Oh, and one last thing.
If you've heard of crossovers?
A crossover is the point at which music goes to different speakers.
say i set a crossover point for my sub, at 100hz. All music below 100hz would go to my sub, all other music would crossover to the front speakers...thats a very basic explanation, but playing with crossovers (how high the frequencies are before they go to a different speaker) can also hugely affect how a system sounds, and how good/clear/loud the bass can get.
So....theres some light reading for ya.
edit : and damn, when i started writing that, nobody had replied
edit : hmm, i might even polish this up a fair bit and submit it as a tute/sticky
Edited by Liquidity, 29 September 2005 - 11:15 PM.
#7
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 11:18 PM
how are the fingers Liquidity after typing all that??
edit: yeah clean it up and we might put it up in the tute forum
edit: yeah clean it up and we might put it up in the tute forum
QUOTE (RMA @ Feb 6 2010, 01:22 AM) My only regrets are:
Selling Fudd an amp (for a fraction of the real price) that had been returned by Autobarn Geelong which had been incorrectly used by AB Geelong and turned out to be faulty when Fudd started using it.
Whilst he was given a new amp after it could not be fixed, he never acknowledged any of the assistance given and bitches to this day about it.
Selling Fudd an amp (for a fraction of the real price) that had been returned by Autobarn Geelong which had been incorrectly used by AB Geelong and turned out to be faulty when Fudd started using it.
Whilst he was given a new amp after it could not be fixed, he never acknowledged any of the assistance given and bitches to this day about it.
www.fuddbutter.com
http://gallery.fuddbutter.com/zen/
MEASQ(CAASQ) Aust Champion 2005
MEASQ(CAASQ) Aust 2nd Place 2006
MEASQ(CAASQ) Vic Champion 2005
MEASQ(CAASQ) Vic Champion 2006
#8 Guest_Liquidity_*
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 11:35 PM
814 words. I'll polish it up, and get back to ya
PHD, looking at another of your posts
your 9835 has some incredible complex crossovers and other tuning features built into them. Theres plenty of information here about what they are and how to use them, it sounds like your well on the way to a good system. The 9835 is pretty much one of the best alpine have out there (before you go up to the stupidly expensive, UBER sq units)
Drop us a line if you ever need any help, i'm soon going to have a 9835 myself, and i'll be playing with all the advanced stuff.
PHD, looking at another of your posts
PHD, on Jul 11 2005, 09:14 PM, said:
hey guys. i am looking for SQ front stage less than 2k for my car. what do you think about 2 way and 3 way. what speaker do you suggest? i play Jazz, live concert and some R&B at most. i am playing with Alpine 9835 and directed amps 4 ch. can my front stage play with Bi-AMP?
Cheers
PHD
Cheers
PHD
your 9835 has some incredible complex crossovers and other tuning features built into them. Theres plenty of information here about what they are and how to use them, it sounds like your well on the way to a good system. The 9835 is pretty much one of the best alpine have out there (before you go up to the stupidly expensive, UBER sq units)
Drop us a line if you ever need any help, i'm soon going to have a 9835 myself, and i'll be playing with all the advanced stuff.
#9
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Posted 05 October 2005 - 06:47 PM
mm go the 9835
MRGMH1 - VN SS daily
W1LDSS - VS SS worked 355ci
Source: Eclipse AVX5000 DVD, Pioneer 5650
Fronts: Focal Utopia, Focal K3P
Rears: None, None
Speaker amps: Alpine PDX 4.150 (utopia mids), Alpine MRV F540 (tweeters) active
Sub amp: Soundstream
Sub: Orion H2
Battery: Dual Optima YellowTop D34 & 120amp alternator, stinger 0ga
W1LDSS - VS SS worked 355ci
Source: Eclipse AVX5000 DVD, Pioneer 5650
Fronts: Focal Utopia, Focal K3P
Rears: None, None
Speaker amps: Alpine PDX 4.150 (utopia mids), Alpine MRV F540 (tweeters) active
Sub amp: Soundstream
Sub: Orion H2
Battery: Dual Optima YellowTop D34 & 120amp alternator, stinger 0ga
#10 Guest_Liquidity_*
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Posted 06 October 2005 - 01:28 PM
by the way, the explanation above got cleaned up, expanded, etc etc, and can now be found at
http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=58374
http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=58374
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