15 replies to this topic

[Dogo]

Hi people, I'd appreciate some advice experience from those who have 6" speakers in their kick panels.

My rainbow splits ( 6" profi kicks 2-way ) are still sitting in their box while I toss up on how to install them - and try to find time

I'd really like to have them in the kick panels and Ive got a second hand set of custom-made kick panel pods lined up for a fairly good price to save me the effort of building them myself

What I'm concerned about is if the kick panel enclosure will reduce the bass from the speakers in comparison to having them in nice deadened doors. I'd really like the better staging that mounting them there gives, but maybe theyre better for 4" mid-bass in a 3-way setup than 6es in a 2-way ?

also is it a bad idea to have the back of the tweeters opening into the enclosure- will the air pressure affect them ?

thanks !

Edited by Dogo, 13 December 2005 - 10:52 PM.

[Damon]

The tweeters won't be affected at all, but having them down low will drag the sound stage down there too. While the kicks are the best place to achieve equalised pathlengths you can also get good results with time alignment instead and this may allow a higher tweeter positioning to raise stage height.

Midrange drivers are designed with high Q factor to suite an infinite baffle type mounting as in your doors where there is a large space behind them, so putting them into a smaller enclosed space can have the same effect as putting a subwoofer in a box that is too small - that is, they can sound boomy in the upper bass region.

You can try it, but again TA could help the imaging and staging cues without the need for moving the speakers too much. It isn't a magic cure, but works well in most systems and comes in many sub-$1000 sourced these days.

[Shieldsy]

when i had my splits in my kicks i had issues with lower end midbass... so i lengthened the kick enclosure to run down the door sills. worked really well.. but had big problems with getting my stage height up.

[fuddbutter]

my stage hight is fine and i have my tweet's in the kicks. they do still do the rainbow effect but not to bad.

[PartyJase]

firstly if you've already got the kicks i'd try them out with the 6.5's and if ur not happy then try other setups.

you would be able to get a good response from the 6.5's in the kicks if you were able to vent the box area behind the kickpanel outside the car somehow. this would generally involve cutting metal (not great) or sealing up an area inside ur dash to be used as the box volume. would think the total volume needed wouldn't be more than 10L for each side. probably more like 5L but im not sure. ask someone who has built boxes for 6.5's

a better option would be to install them into the doors, and get the rainbow 4" midrange and install that in the kicks. even tho its not a rear sealed speaker, it requires very little air volume as it doesn't have to play that low (ie below about 300hz at the most). at worst if the volume is too small the speaker wont go low enough and you'll be able to hear it and adjust the crossover point higher as desired.

as to which one will stage better depends on ur positioning. obviously using a 4" midrange is easier to move around and adjust the angle with potentially giving you a better staging and imaging (like shiny and myself), however that can be equally achieved using 2ways and having the midbass in the door and having the tweeter play to a low to around 1.5hz like nemesis and rob do in their SQ cars.
its all about the positioning and trial and error so i'd suggest picking the 2way option to start with. if it doesn't work - move the midbass. if that doesn't work for you then maybe consider purchasing a dedicated midrange.

[Marc ♫]

Damon, on Dec 14 2005, 08:43 AM, said:

The tweeters won't be affected at all, but having them down low will drag the sound stage down there too. While the kicks are the best place to achieve equalised pathlengths you can also get good results with time alignment instead and this may allow a higher tweeter positioning to raise stage height.

As Damon says, the kick panels are certainly the best place to achieve equal (well as much as we can) pathlengths, however it is untrue that having them in kick panels will drag your sound stage down low.

It can, and very likely will without extensive testing for location and mounting position.

I've played with time alignment and listening position many times and not once (other than for the subwoofer) have I achieved anything with it to justify leaving it turned on.

I would definately suggest door mounting mids over kicks for the simple reason you have suggested (larger enclosure, ability to fully seal door, sound deadening etc), but definately don't rule out kick panel mounting for your tweeters if you are prepared to experiment with position.

By experiment I mean, countless sticks of blu-tack and hotglue, and then once you think you have it somewhere close leave it like that for a week. Drive around auditioning as much as you can. You will find after a couple of days that you can hear where it is failing and then be able to adjust accordingly before locking the positions in.

[SCorpion]

nothin wrong with havin tweets in the kick panels. this stage height stuff isnt that much of an issue. it mightnt be at eye level but it is gonna be at least chest height if u have a bit of a fiddle.

its difficult with a 2 way setup, ideally u really want anything below 500-700Hz to played almost @ right angles to ur head. thats just where it seems to work in my car neway. anything freq's above that though u want further around in front of u, coming up to around 45 degrees to ur head. once again that seems to work for my car and all cars are different. tweets can even come round till right in front of u but obviously there is problems with stage width and to me stage width is more important than stage height.

so in a 2 way setup u have to compromise yet again, in the doors tend to be a really really good spot for midbass and lets face it, ur midbass drivers are gonna be the most important drivers, definitly the hardest to get right.

really u have to compromise, do u sacrifice better midbass and imaging for the lower end freqs for better imaging for the higher freqs from say 500Hz to where ur tweeter comes into play.

on the bit about TA tho, from wat i can figure out it seems to allow u to put the drivers just about newhere u like, so long as u keep ur midbass and tweeter together. i have found that havin the tweet and midbass seperated doesnt work with TA even if u can adjust TA between drivers. plus the passenger side really suffers but who gives a stuff, they didnt pay for the gear right?

also, ill be interested as to where u put ur tweet because i have the same tweet, from the rainbow profi vanadium range. but i got it setup as 3 way with a morel mid bass and the 7inch rainbow driver from the power series. good to see a fellow rainbow enthusiast! actually, u probably know these speakers. came out of JohnA's WRX. lol i still havent finalised where i want it to go.

Edited by SCorpion, 14 December 2005 - 10:18 AM.

[Dogo]

This is fanstastic, thank you for the advice.

Im thinking perhaps I should get a Morel CDM 54 for the kicks and leave the rainbow drivers in the door.
Marty has a pretty good price on these in his xmas sale.
And if I at least put something in the doors I wont feel so bad about wasting the deadening

This 3-way setup Im thinking of would be semi-active, using the rainbow passive xover for the tweet/midrange and the extra front channels on the h700 for the drivers. Im not prepared to go fully active just yet.

Having my passenger enjoy the sound is important to me - listening to music in the car is somthing my g/f and I enjoy doing together. ( awww )
So I'll have to find some kind of compromise with the TA for daily use.

[SCorpion]

ur such a romantic Dogo, i have a few ideas kickin around as to how to make it better for the passenger without compromising the sound for the driver. like making concave areas around the mid bass so that it is less directional as the increase area and shape will make it diffract more @ the cone. well, in theory it will neway.

basically tho the best way to let both people enjoy the music is by putting the drivers in the kicks really, TA will only make it worse for the passenger.

u got 5.1 setup? why dont u want to go fully active?

[Dogo]

Quote

u got 5.1 setup? why dont u want to go fully active?

Yeh I do have 5.1. Although listening to stereo music mostly, the 5.1 doesnt get much use. I might leave the rears and center disconnected while I settle into the new front stage.

I have 2 main reasons not to go fully active

1. I havnt tried semi-active yet.

2. In-experience - I want to learn more first so that I dont get crap sound from bad settings.

and also because Im using a 4ch amp that Im happy with (Audison LRx) , and I dont want to buy another just yet.

Your theory sounds interesting. Its worth a try !

[SCorpion]

lol, i jumped in head first wen i first started audio. learnt as i went, just have to have patience and remember not to worry wen u do the same thing wrong 3 or 4 times before someone slaps u over the bak of the head and shows u how to do it properly. lol. but i know how it can be real daunting so i can understand where u r comin from, plus its more money.

me on the other hand wouldnt mind having 5.1 set up (i got some of the bits for it already) because i watch alot of music vids and alot of the live performances are recorded into 5.1. the atmosphere can be really good sometimes if the recording itself is good (which is rare)

yer im gonna try the new theory out with the new kicks, then wen i get the D310E and H701 ill put both the midbass and tweet up on the dash and really work hard at getting the TA workin properly.

[fuddbutter]

dogo come have a listen to my car at the next meet, i got the tweets in the kicks and mids in the doors.
(yeah the eunos with the dodgy tweeter mounts)

[Dogo]

Well Ive taken advantage of the Fhrx sale and some Morel CDM54 mid-ranges are on their way.

very excited to start playing with these

With the 3-way setup is it generally worth trying to keep the mid-range and the tweet together or will it be ok to have the morel in the kicks with the tweets in the dash to raise the stage ?

I'll play around with positions, but I think at first they'll live in the kicks with the rainbow tweets, and the rainbow drivers will live in the door.


SCorpion it looks like we might be able to compare notes one day since our speaker selection is so similar.

[SCorpion]

lol, we sure do have similar setups.

im leaning towards installing everything into the kick panels and doors @ the moment. reason being is i wont be able to afford an IVA D310E and H701 till christmas next yr (im such a poor ass uni student) so im gonna see if i can find a really cheap HU with decent TA settings, otherwise its into the kicks for me.

to me, its very important to have the mid and tweet very close together (doesnt necessarily have to be close to ur bigger driver tho) because i certainly have a problem with the imaging when i've got the tweet crossed over @ anything below 3000hz with the mid and tweets seperated.