36 replies to this topic

[WhiteMY06]

An introduction on the system first:

Car: MY06 WRX
System: 9853r, MBQ Ref 6", 5ch Amp bridged for 6", and 1x JL 12W0.

At the moment I have the tweeters in the far corners of the dash, basically aimed at opposite heads. They are only temp mounted as I knew i'd want to move them around.

Now for the issues I have with this: firstly I don't like the fact that i have to use TA to make it sound decent. Secondly the tweeters are still a bit too in my face (even with -6db on crossovers). Thirdly, I'd like it to also sound decent when i show off to passengers without reversing the TA! Short story, I'm not 100% happy with the sound!

My dilemna here is that obviously judges are happy after the very suprising comments at last comp. I'm going to move them down to the kicks and try them there, i figure with the more equalised path lengths, and closer to mids I should be happier. I am concerned that this will ruin the stage height and be a backwards step in CAASQ.

What I'm after is advice on how much affect this will potentially have in comps? The best way to get some height without putting tweeters high? Maybe some info on ambient setups, how its set up, what effect it has etc. Also I've got the CD103 on the way, what tracks should i use to test this stuff?

Oh, and I'm set up to go full 3 way active, but don't want to go down this path just yet, want it good without TA and EQ etc before I go playing there.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!
Kyle

[KickerCat]

The only thing you can do is try it Kyle - turn off TA (its obviously gonna be out when you move the tweets) put them down near the woofers, and see how it sounds. Blu tac them there, and play some tracks you know well, and see if the height has changed. You may lose some stage height, but if you put the crossover to -3 or 0, it may not be noticeable. also try them in other locations in between the dash and kicks, you may find somewhere in between is better, although harder to mount

[MADTRAV]

Whats wrong with my air vent installation? Although personally i like them higher in dashs, sails, a-pillars etc, some cars can obtain great results with lower kick mounted installation.

My guess is to go see nick and come up with some semi permanent brackets (ghetto style) and try it out first before commiting to anything.

[WhiteMY06]

Already got Nick specials - strapping bent and angled....

[muzzy66]

I've seen (or at least heard) great results from both kick mounted setups, and pillar mouted setups.

I think it all depends on the car, the speakers (off axis ability), and personal preference.

I've heard Morels and Dyns kick mounted which sounded increadible.

Comparatively, some seem to lose alot ofl high frequency detail and stage height when kick mounted, but then sound and staged absolutely glorious when mounted up high in the pillars.

My advice also is experiment with blu tac, as its the only way you will find your perfect location for your specific setup.

Edited by muzzy66, 03 April 2006 - 08:35 PM.

[fuddbutter]

WhiteMY06, on Apr 3 2006, 04:32 PM, said:

Already got Nick specials - strapping bent and angled....

bah whats this nick special!! he got that idea (and everyone else) of me hehe


anyway the only time you should use TA is if you absolutly cant get it 100% perfect.

alot of ppl just whack the speakers where they think they will sound good and then fix it up with TA.

kicks can get you great hight but you can get freq steering from it.

[Pulse-R]

Rob, on Apr 3 2006, 07:09 PM, said:

kicks can get you great hight but you can get freq steering from it.

in deed

unless you re-build the entire car interior to suit the audio, then anything is a compromise.

[Marc ♫]

I'm not following ... so you are both saying if you use kick panels you get frequency steering?

My experience with frequency steerings comes from when people seperate speakers from each other too much. Ie. Door/Kick mounted Mids, and then having tweeters up on the dash or A-pillars. The sound stage is wherever it may be, then all of a sudden you get some female vocals and those frequencies pull away from the stage and audibly start coming from the obvious speaker locations (in this case the tweeters).

Mounting all your speakers closer together (ie. Kicks and Doors) actually helps avoid frequency steering in my opinion, provided crossovers and gains are set properly. Crossover points are essential for avoiding frequency steering also. You don't want a crossover point high up between the midrange and tweeter, where frequencies are obviously going to be playing in and out between the two speakers.

That's my interpretation and experience anyway. Interested to see other perspectives, maybe I have it wrong? Which I guess is what makes music so great and exciting We all have our own opinions.

[KickerCat]

Thanks for the explanation of steering Marc! From your definition though, it seems like 'steering' refers to the highs seeming to come from higher up than the lows, as opposed to one side seeming stronger than the other. Is this right, or does 'steering' just refer to the sound shifting depending on the frequency?

Edited by KickerCat, 04 April 2006 - 09:14 AM.

[Wasnt Me]

Also play around with the high pass points. They make a HUGE difference! I have just adjusted mine to a frequency that is more extreme but it sound INCREDIBLE. Pretty sure most people wouldnt have thought of high passing this low =P It started with being 50hz and the stage height was a little low. Now they are passed at 30hz lol. And the stage moved up and a heap of a lot deeper into the dash!

Mind you have to be careful when you are going to go this low. MUST listen for bottoming out and amp clippage!

BTW My dyns tweets are put into the kicks and woofers in the stock position in the doors.

[fuddbutter]

Marc, on Apr 4 2006, 06:57 AM, said:

I'm not following ... so you are both saying if you use kick panels you get frequency steering?

My experience with frequency steerings comes from when people seperate speakers from each other too much. Ie. Door/Kick mounted Mids, and then having tweeters up on the dash or A-pillars. The sound stage is wherever it may be, then all of a sudden you get some female vocals and those frequencies pull away from the stage and audibly start coming from the obvious speaker locations (in this case the tweeters).

Mounting all your speakers closer together (ie. Kicks and Doors) actually helps avoid frequency steering in my opinion, provided crossovers and gains are set properly. Crossover points are essential for avoiding frequency steering also. You don't want a crossover point high up between the midrange and tweeter, where frequencies are obviously going to be playing in and out between the two speakers.

That's my interpretation and experience anyway. Interested to see other perspectives, maybe I have it wrong? Which I guess is what makes music so great and exciting We all have our own opinions.

im not saying that you will get it, just there is more chance of it happining..

my definition of it was freq steering was insted of the soundstage being perfectly flat accross the dash it bends down at the ends, like a rainbow

what you are talking about Marc sounds like seperation but not..
i used to suffer with sepperation in the Seat, when male vocals came in the sound stage would hit the floor.
diddent have a problem with the audible location of the speakers though..


i guess both idea's are different versions of frequincy steering..

let's just say both are bad!

[Pyroay]

My interpretation is

Separation
Where music comes from 2 or more different locations.
i.e. Tweeters on A-pillars and Mids in the kicks can cause high freq to sound like they’re up high and lower midrange freq sound like they are emanating from a different location down lower. Hence 2 or more separate sound locations. This can also occur where midrange and tweeter are mounted up high and midbass is down low. This will be evidenced with some bass guitar passages which may seem to drop down at certain freq and in a worse case scenario drop down to midbasses and then drop rearwards to the sub.


Staging
Refers to the height, width & depth of the soundstage. In a perfect scenario all sounds should emanate from high up and out in front of you (i.e. like if you go to a concert and all instruments are actual high up and in front of you on the STAGE) You should be able to place instruments in their locations across the soundstage and perceive depth where depth is present in a song (e.g. where drums are located at the rear of the stage (as is often the case) or piano to one side and guitar’s on the other or just off centre.

A more common soundstage in car audio is more like a Rainbow effect that Rob has described where the centre is nice and high and central but bows down like a rainbow towards either side so by the time your at the edges of the car the stage is lower than it is in the middle. This rainbow effect can be found in many cars and is often most noticeable in kick panel mounted set-ups since the sound source is emanating from a low location so the projected sound is nice and high and central but as you listen to the outer edges of the soundstage you are more accurately able to pinpoint the actual sound source which in the case of kickpanels is low.

Mounting tweeters in the A-pillars obviously helps prevent this but has it’s own inherent problems such as non equidistant locations and the aforementioned separation issue.

Frequency Steering
My understanding of freq steering is when at certain frequencies the image shifts across (or steers) across the soundstage. For example you might have a vocalist with a good range who sings up and down over a large freq range. Freq steering would be evidenced as he/she appearing to move across the sound stage or being hard to precisely locate. at certain freq or at certain times.

It can happen with instruments such as saxaphones and brass instruments where they are coming from dead centre and as they play a passage up and down frequencies they appear to move left or right when in fact they are not moving at all. Freq steering can be caused by a range of things in phasing, time alignment, cancellation of certain freq by placement and instillation of speakers etc…


Just my thoughts.



PS as a final note I have found the CAASQ judges typically like a very bright sound so the fact you find it a bit bright for your daily listening seems about right to me. I would have some way of changing it for you listening and then setting it back to previous for the cops. Much the same as people do with their subs since most of us like a little more bass in our daily drives.

Not a bad thing just an observation I have had.

[Damo95]

Pyroay, on Apr 5 2006, 09:19 AM, said:

PS as a final note I have found the CAASQ judges typically like a very bright sound so the fact you find it a bit bright for your daily listening seems about right to me. I would have some way of changing it for you listening and then setting it back to previous for the cops. Much the same as people do with their subs since most of us like a little more bass in our daily drives.

Not a bad thing just an observation I have had.

i have found that too Aaron..
having the alpine processor greatly allows this to happen.. i have 1 setting for the sq comps, which is too bright for my ears, and the normal everyday cruising setting.. sure makes sense..

[Wasnt Me]

Maybe your ears are of better health then the judges =D haha. But it's all subjective so =)

[HooDs]

Phat Devil, on Apr 5 2006, 07:14 AM, said:

Maybe your ears are of better health then the judges =D haha. But it's all subjective so =)