18 replies to this topic

[SQ_Ghia]

k my xe ghia is back from the panel beaters and im putting the sound system in soon but need to noe acouple of stuff b4 i do...

first of all im putting a 4-way system, tweeter, 4inch midrange, 6.5 inch and 12 inch sub
these are the drivers:

1.peerless hds tweeter hds tweeter

2. peerless 4 inch nomex midrange nomex

3. 6.5 inch peerless hds exclusive6.5

4. peerless xxls 12


well i have made custom pods for my 6.5's in my doors i am hoping to put the mid and tweeter on the corner of the dash facing me is this a good idea for sound quality and wat would be good x-over points and can i do ported enclosure in the door?

[WAYCON]

If it were me then I would sell the 6.5" and go for something larger - say an 8" driver that you can get down to 60odd Hertz which those 6.5"s don't look able to do.

Having said that I assume that you have already gotten the gear and so the above is not very helpful.

In that case it will be important for you to try different positions with the 4" dome midrange as you might very well find some seperation issues with it mounted high in the dash, with the 6.5" in the door. The only way to know for sure would be to blue-tak the speakers in position and move them around, in the sails, in the kicks, next to the 6.5"s etc etc.

With the tweeters I would also reccomend the above method, but would suggest that you mount them in your A-pillar firing across your dash and slightly toward your windscreen. This will give you the widest and deepest possible soundstage whilst maintaining your centre image.

X over points are really hit and miss and depend highly on the car. Having a 3 way setup in the front means that you should be aiming to have your 6.5" play as low as possible, both in terms of high and low pass. This is because if they are mounted in your doors you won't be able to get them to portray a forward centre, and they will be highly directional in the higher frequencies, so try and low pass them at a range so that they remain un-directional.

Mids and tweets will depend on where you mount them as you don't want the seperation that occurs from Xovering in the middle of the vocal range whilst the drivers are located miles away from each other.

As for porting the enclosure in the door, I wouldn't bother as there are little benefits from such a technique. Instead you should research the use of AP mats as this is what would be most effective in such a small environment.

[SQ_Ghia]

thx heaps for the reply, the information is very useful
although srry i didnt mention that i havnt bought any of the equipment yet, although the only thing i did was make pods for the doors for the 6.5" to fit....

i would highly prefer to put a 6.5" rather than an 8" because it will not fit anywere and i dont have the need for it, i would prefer to cut the 6.5" off at a higher frequency... although, if i had to make a 20liter vented enclosure in the door i would get a -3db at 40hz!!! i think is really good for a 6.5" driver.

i will post pics this afternoon showing were i want to mount my midrange and tweeter

thx again,

[Pulse-R]

6.1/2 is fine.

they should play down to 50 or 55, which is all you really need.

I have a pair of the XXLS 10" for SPL - they are very nice subs.

any reason for going all 8ohm?

many people use the Vifa XT25TG30-04 tweeters with fantastic results. certainly smoother in the top end.

[Captn_Awesome]

My advice is that your better to start with a 2 way front stage with a sub than a 3 way with a sub.

Chances are you dont understand the accoutic environment of a car if you havent had much experiance in in car entertainment. 3 ways are far more difficult to setup properly - especially with a sub.

Your selection of 8ohm drivers is not the most wise decision. Most car audio amps will put out SFA power at 8 ohms. Also those drivers arent designed for use in a car environtment where they will be subjected to dust, moisture, UV and constant vibration in a variety of axis.

Peerless make great drivers I own several of their drivers the only drivers I would use in the car environment though would be 3" soft dome mids and the XT19 or XT25 tweeters. Ad i would only use the 3" for centre channel duties in a 5.1 setup

Edit : Sorry that came across as bluntly as it did. By all means try 3 way with sub and try 8phm speakers, particularly the peerless drivers. What I was more trying to say is dont limit your choice to peerless because you know the brand from in home use and dont write off a 2 way system purely because a 3 way system works better in house. You might me supprised what a 2 way system sounds like in the car environment. Less is more and More is less quite often

Edited by Komodo, 11 October 2006 - 01:07 PM.

[Blackfox]

peerless produce an excellent 2 way system, called the definition series, which is what i personally use in a two way active setup, the next step is it to add a dynaudio midrange to the mix, a 3 way maybe be harder to setup but the performance of an excellent setup canot be beat!
I have peerless tweeters are home, and i have no problems with them.

About the 8 ohm drivers. If an amplifier puts out 100watt rms at 4 ohms, when you hook up 8 ohms it will only put in 50watt rms into them, therefore to power them effectivly you will need double the power. Also the other problem is if you have an 8 ohm driver in a 4 ohm passive crossover setup the 4 ohm drivers will be twice as loud as the 8 ohm driver (-3db for the 8ohm driver)

[Juls]

The biggest issue I see is the 4" midrange will require at least 1.5-3 litres to achieve any depth (below 500hz)

if you make x/over points Above 280hz, and below 4khz, for the midrange, Then you will run into separation issues, Unless the midrange is mounted very close to the midbass.

The other issue is mounting the midrange, you cannot simply place it in the door, with the midbass, as the midbass will effect the midrange speaker adversly, ruining your midrange detail.

the midrange will require it's own separated sealed enclosure.

In terms of X/over points.

280-350hz for the midbass to midrange, 3-5khz for midrange to tweeter.

with a 6.5" midbass,
I suggest Sub to Midbass 70-90hz.

Sub 24db, Midbass 6/12db.

Dome midranges don't require there own enclosure, however seldom can they play below 800hz, right in the middle of the voice spektrum, which means unless they are mounted directly next to the midbass, you will run into separation issues.

I'm not against 3 ways at all, I love 3 ways, but I would agree that 2 ways are so much simpler to deal with, and generally a 2 way of the same cost as a 3 way, will be nicer overall if it's installation is done properly, and the 3 ways is not.

(however a properly installed 3 way is difficult to beat at the same price)

Juls

Edited by Juls, 11 October 2006 - 02:00 PM.

[~thematt~]

Usually I agree with Juls' posts, but not this time concerning Seperation. I have Dyn 3ways, and the midranges are in the sail panels. Midbass at the bottom of the doors. Xover around 500-700Hz (I think, have to check). No noticeable seperation. Im happy.

I agree with Komodo though. 3-ways are fanatically difficult to achieve a good sound from, and the cost of installation+purchase is heaps easier for 2-ways. Plus with most 2-ways, you dont really tend to notice a lack of anything unless you have sharp ears, or know what to listen for. Most people can get away with 2-ways easily.

And I wouldnt go near a 4ohm passive with an 8ohm driver. It wont jsut sound 'quieter', but the whole Xover point will change. Frequencies, slopes, everything. Yuck. Best run the whole thing active. 50W RMS isnt a bad thing either, most speakers will run nicely from this type of power.

Personally though, Id be expanding my scope of choices.

[Juls]

~thematt~, on Oct 11 2006, 12:57 PM, said:

Usually I agree with Juls' posts, but not this time concerning Seperation. I have Dyn 3ways, and the midranges are in the sail panels. Midbass at the bottom of the doors. Xover around 500-700Hz (I think, have to check). No noticeable seperation. Im happy.

There is alot of things that make a difference, the dynaudio dome midrange really isn't capable below 500hz, and is usually x/overed by the passives at 800hz or similar for better power handling.

There is no reason why it wouldn't work.

every car is different, Actual Voices ect, run mostly between 300hz and 4khz, which makes any crossover point in between where those frequencys are, played by separated by drivers, technically less than ideal.

It doesn't mean it won't work, it's just less than ideal, and requires more attention when setting up to achieve good vocal response.

Juls

[SQ_Ghia]

 untitled.jpg   52.71K   6 downloads

this is the corner of the dash, i wana put the midrange in the factory 4 " position and the twetter in the corner next to it so therefor the midrange will be close to the 6 in the door

and amke the 6 vented or cut it off at a higher frequency, my subbass to midbass is gona be active cross over but the rest is gona be passive, the midrange will be in an enclosure so not worried about that, and as we all noe all tweeters are sealed back

the reason i am choosin peerless speakers is because i can get them cheap, same as vifa and scan speak so its all good, im not worried to much about them being 8 ohm because there all gona be 8 ohm and it will give the amplifier less stress if u noe wat i mean

u still rkn its a bad idea for me to do this install i like all opions, ure information is very useful

Edited by SQ_Ghia, 11 October 2006 - 06:27 PM.

[~thematt~]

The passive will need to built to account for an 8 ohm driver specifically. Waste of time otherwise. That position for the midrange should work quite well, and your midbass Id recommend opting for a sealed enclosure.

And I agree with Juls' 2nd post!

[muzzy66]

It's creepy how close this is sounding to my brothers current setup

He has a 7" version of the same Peerless midbass unit.

Quite a nice woofer. I was particularly impressed by the build quality, which really is phenomenal (on par with my Rainbows).

He's running it in a two-way active setup with some scanspeak tweeters, and I have to say the result is very impressive given that the rest of his gear is entry level (cheap pioneer deck, jaycar amps) and

Initially expected more from the scanspeaks, but once I saw them in the flesh and heard the the mids impressed me more. Scanspeak's build quality was (IMO) not on the same level.

From what he told me that peerless subwoofer also has a very, very good reputation ans supposedly is considered to be one of the best sounding subs around.

Sub-wise he is running is an Eclipse SW8200 (yet to be installed). According to what he's told me, these subs are build by a company called TC Sounds (or something), whom supposedly have a very impressive reputation for their subwoofer designs. According to him this is the only sub that lower distortion levels then the Peerless - i'm not sure of the specifics though as he was the one doing the reading

He is using a similar concept of installation also.

He build up some custom MDF slot-ported enclosures/door-pods which housed his midbass and tweeters, aimed toward the centre of the car (just left of the driver). The ports probably help a little, and the midbass is quite good from the drivers, but definately no substitute for a sub - not much down low (which is expected).

These 'pods' are screwed to his doors (he has an old commy so isnt to concerned about presentation yet).

Without a doubt, the single roughest looking install i've ever seen (hit your legs on the pods every time you get in the car) but the way it looks is no way related to how it sounds... as much as I love criticising him, it all sounds damn good.

I've heard far more expensive setups that didn't even come close.

SQ_Ghia, on Oct 10 2006, 11:34 PM, said:

thx heaps for the reply, the information is very useful
although srry i didnt mention that i havnt bought any of the equipment yet, although the only thing i did was make pods for the doors for the 6.5" to fit....

i would highly prefer to put a 6.5" rather than an 8" because it will not fit anywere and i dont have the need for it, i would prefer to cut the 6.5" off at a higher frequency... although, if i had to make a 20liter vented enclosure in the door i would get a -3db at 40hz!!! i think is really good for a 6.5" driver.

i will post pics this afternoon showing were i want to mount my midrange and tweeter

thx again,

Take a look at your group delays and response curves also.

This may likely be alot more important for a midbass then for a sub because it will have the task of reproducing fast kickbass, etc.

~thematt~, on Oct 11 2006, 04:57 AM, said:

And I wouldnt go near a 4ohm passive with an 8ohm driver. It wont jsut sound 'quieter', but the whole Xover point will change. Frequencies, slopes, everything. Yuck.

Was just about to say the same thing

[SQ_Ghia]

so wat do u guys rkn that the speakers are all close 2gether?? and the stuff i showed etc etc

u guys rkn it can be a competitive sq system?

[muzzy66]

The major turnoff in my eyes is the location of the mids.

Mids are probably the most important speaker of all, and unless they are put in an optimised position you may well get results no better then you would with a good two way setup... possibly even worse.

That location there (im assuming they will be mounted straight in as is) to me looks far from optimal becasuse:
1) The mids look like they would be angled down at your waist
2) The little enslouse is a help, but the fact that it's made out of plastic isnt (reflections)

If the speaker can be angled effectively, and if you can replace the plastic enclosure with a nice little well sealed wooden one, then maybe a different story

[SQ_Ghia]

yehh!!
soz forgot to say that i am making a fibreglass enclosure for them and glass' cover facing the the person sitting in the seat