27 replies to this topic

[jasonakafreaky]

20Hurtz, on Jan 10 2007, 05:25 AM, said:

it wo'nt make any difference if your holding the middle of the stick (spider) and the top of the thing your balancing (surround) then it won't really matter how long the stick (former) is, look at the 06 re xxx absolutely massively long former/vc assembly but this is an extremely low distrortion driver! Very high SQ

not sure what the middle of the stick got to do with this as all subs have spiders/magnets/motors in the middle...

the anology is simply to examplify the difference in distance from the centre of the sub to the surrounds.
the bigger the sub; the greater the distance.

no matter how accurate/well built a sub is; it will always be be limited by this.

If a 15 inch sub can be controlled as well as an 8 inch... there wouldn't be a need for different drivers.

This is of course an extreme scenario and in this case; the diff between the 10 and the 12 is 'almost' negligible...

[trism]

ive heard 15s that play tighter than 10s....ive heard 15s that play tighter than 8s. it all depends on teh manufacturer.

lets say i get 2 subs, same model line, for exampple, a type x 1- and type x 12, am i gunna tell that much differece??

[~thematt~]

Of course, but problem is with our ears, when two signal are played, the 'louder' one will end up being considered the 'better' one.

[SCorpion]

well, seeing as alot of home audio drivers are 15" or bigger,

and i've seen said 15" inch with 97dB sensitivity.

get my drift? the size of the cone doesn't matter as long as the motor structure is appropriately sized

[Shreknos]

Quote

get my drift? the size of the cone doesn't matter as long as the motor structure is appropriately sized

thank you steve, someone get this guy a beer....

[20Hurtz]

Quote

not sure what the middle of the stick got to do with this as all subs have spiders/magnets/motors in the middle...

sorry i must have misunderstood your

Quote

examplif

ication

I can't see how it would make a difference as to how great the distance from the middle to the surround is, as long as the cone is stiff then there is no reason in that respect for it to sound sloppy or distorted.

Quote

lets say i get 2 subs, same model line, for exampple, a type x 1- and type x 12, am i gunna tell that much differece??

if you match there output exactly and they where in exactly proportioned boxes then no. I find that with tens it takes me less fidling to get them to sound how i want.

Quote

get my drift? the size of the cone doesn't matter as long as the motor structure is appropriately sized

the fact that it had quite a large efficiency points to the fact that the mms was quite low, ie very light coil, former and cone assembly.

for a lighter mms the B will not have to be as powerful to achieve the same spl levels as a heavier coil and larger B.

A 15" with a smaller magnet can sound just as quick and tight as a 15 with a massive magnet.

Once again its all in the inductance as to how quick a woofer is.

[Juls]

I've seen the same subwoofer in the same box, at one point run off a Jaycar 2x150 bridged at 500W into a Subwoofer..

and it sounded muddy, slow and boring, same box/sub behind a soundstream bridged and it was fast, tight and accurate,then the same again put behind a rockford Power Monoblock and it was faster, tighter and harder hitting again.

The same thing said, for the same sub/amp combo, going from a standard built box, to a well braced box of the same volume, the regular box being slow and muddy, and the well built box being tight, dynamic and less distortion. even though there was no difference in volume or shape.

I've seen 15" subwoofers that are immensly fast and keep up with almost every hit,
and 10" subwoofers that are boring muddy, slow and sound like poo.

However at the end of the day I still prefer smaller subwoofers, as they tend to cope with frequencys above 60hz better.

when your trying to x/over at 70-90hz, smaller subs tend to be able to play the smaller higher frequencys with more detail, accuracy and precision. But anything under 50hz, it's all much of a muchness which sub you go with.

so to put my twist on the comparo.

if you like to run your subs with higher freqs, generally speaking a smaller sub will be more detailed, precise and accurate, however if you want to play mainly lower bass, then a larger speaker may actually be a better solution.

Lower freqs the speaker doesn't have to move as quickly, where higher bass freqs the speaker is expected to move much faster. so it's fairly obvious which subs to go for in which scenario.

Not one particular sub is ideal for 20-100hz, some subs are better for 20-50hz, others are better for 50-100hz.

If your asking me to choose 1 sub to do it all.. a 10" or 12" is my preference. but if you have a specific requirement, or your system design has specific needs, then obviously 8" or 18" subs could also be a solid choice.

In CHEAP subs and CHEAP amps.. then smaller is faster, bigger is deeper.. in the expensive stuff, the difference is much much less.

Just keep in mind, that theres more to fast accurate sub bass, than just choosing the right size sub for your application.

Juls

[RoVer™]

Quote

In CHEAP subs and CHEAP amps.. then smaller is faster, bigger is deeper.. in the expensive stuff, the difference is much much less.

Exactly!

People tender to say 15" is sloppier, or that an 8" is faster. In theory, this is actually correct when comparing a $200 8" with a 15" with an identical price tag.

Bigger is likely to be better, but bigger is definitely more expensive.
Strictly generalizing, to get a DECENT 15", you'll find yourself paying much more compared to a decent 10"

Edited by RoVer™, 11 January 2007 - 02:55 PM.

[jasonakafreaky]

Sorie 20 Hurtz, I think you misunderstood me;

I'm not saying a 15inch can't be as responsive as a 10, but i'm just stating mechnical limitations. I've already mentioned that my example was an extreme comparison.

Don't compare a great sub with a lousy one, its not even a valid result.
Too much factors will play up.

You stated;
"I can't see how it would make a difference as to how great the distance from the middle to the surround is, as long as the cone is stiff then there is no reason in that respect for it to sound sloppy or distorted."

If that is true, a subwoofer would be able to play music like a tweeter "as long as the cone is stiff"? If what you say is true, we should only have 2 15inch woofers playing full range?

I firmly believe its the engineering/design/built quality that makes the expensive 15 inch sound as responsive as the 10. Thus its the engineering that OVERCAME the mechanical limitations between the 2.

That said, let's just agree to disagree on the mechanical limitation part. PEACE...

Edited by jasonakafreaky, 11 January 2007 - 04:04 PM.

[20Hurtz]

Quote

If that is true, a subwoofer would be able to play music like a tweeter "as long as the cone is stiff"? If what you say is true, we should only have 2 15inch woofers playing full range?

I think you will find that inductance is the main limitation in how far up a speaker can play

there are things like cone break up that come into play though.

another thing is that a speakers diameter is proportional to the wavelength it can reproduce before it starts beaming, this is why smaller tweeters disperse the sound more whereas large tweeters tend not to do too well if they are too far off axis.

[~thematt~]

My 10" subs modelled flat to around 1.5kHz, not that we have tried actually pushing them there....

So I guess you could say, with EXTREME engineering, and massive amounts of R&D, some things can be overcome

But like 20Hurtz has stated, you'd then start to get problems with beaming, intermodular distortion, cone breakup etc. etc.

[RoVer™]

jasonakafreaky, on Jan 11 2007, 04:53 PM, said:

If that is true, a subwoofer would be able to play music like a tweeter "as long as the cone is stiff"? If what you say is true, we should only have 2 15inch woofers playing full range?

I've actually been to a party where they had 2 15" speakers for full range duties. Surprisingly lacked sub bass, the high's were astonishing, mid bass was crisp and accurate. So I'd say it all comes down to what the driver is made for, and how far the speaker needs to play. Correct if me i'm wrong, in a rock concert the highs aren't played by a tweeter that is 1.5" in diameter...

Edited by RoVer™, 11 January 2007 - 09:47 PM.

[jasonakafreaky]

If I'm not mistaken, concert systems usually use compression horn tweeters...

As for the full range 15 inches woofers you mentioned; you got me. I have no experience there... never heard anything like that.

afaik there are drivers that are designed for full range applications, but no speaker in this category can be matched up to a well implemented component system.