The Latest from the Australian Mobile Electronics Industry Since 1999 60,000+ Readers Per Month! Get the MEA iPhone App

Jump to content


Sound deadening


25 replies to this topic

#1 Captn_Awesome

    All round top bloke

  • Members
  • 5,737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:'burn city bitches
  • Interests:killing people
  • State:VIC

Posted 01 October 2007 - 01:14 PM

Ladies and others,

In my Patrol (2001 GU series II 4.2L Turbo Diesel) Im looking to sound deaden it.

Now any of you who have driven a nissan patrol will know they are pretty damn agricultural - and engine noise is a big bitch.

So I'm looking to deaden the car with:

3 Dynamat bulk packs
1 Hood liner
2 Plain Chant pads
Some foam/felt up the inside of the firewall / under the carpet

so firstly does every one think this is enough?

I'm also looking at getting spray on deadener sprayed under the car (under the body, chassis rails and wheel arches) - is there anywhere else I should look to have spray on deadiner put?

Should I also look at deadening the roof?

Does any one have any other tips on elimiating road noise and engine noise in a 4x4?

Cheers,
Kirk

Edited by Komodo, 01 October 2007 - 01:16 PM.

'01 GU II TD42T
4" Suspension Stuff / Dobinsons Flexi Coils, Amada Xtreme remote reservoir shocks, evolution drop boxes, 80 series bump stops, braided extended brake lines, 18/20mm swaybars, superior swaybar disconnects, 285/75R16 MT MTZs, 3" Scotts Rods Exhaust, Tigerz11 12,000lbs Grande winch w/dyneema rope.
Custom dents and scratches reminding me of the good times ;)


#2 mac_man_luke

    -

  • Members
  • 1,630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Adelaide
  • State:SA

Posted 01 October 2007 - 01:23 PM

Should do nicely but id consider getting some dynaliner/dynapad for under the carpet/behind door trims etc because it would be better at blocking noise than dynamat
Current Install - 2005 Ford Falcon BF XR8 Ute
Previous Install - 2004 Ford Focus Sedan:
Previous Install - 1989 Toyota Corolla AE92 Sedan
Successful Trades: TEGBOY DD-VT Syd_pulsin guru1981 fhrx MADTRAV Pulse-R mad89 Ritonja Pyroay philz shiny_car

#3 ultim8DTM5

    1500 - 3000w RMS

  • Members
  • 2,294 posts
  • State:NSW

Posted 01 October 2007 - 02:10 PM

I think that is more than enough. Instead of applying it liberally, be more scientific and target problem areas - otherwise you are just wasting money.

Also invest in some road tyres, unless you go off-road you should look at these very closely. Other than that, you've got a diesel Patrol so you can't expect too much.

Quote

Andy Jones, IASCA Street X SQL is code for "I half ass everything." Basically you are saying you are not loud enough to do SPL, and have no idea what it takes to do Sound Quality. So you meet in the middle with a quiet system that sounds like ass. Good job at being mediocre.

#4 Captn_Awesome

    All round top bloke

  • Members
  • 5,737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:'burn city bitches
  • Interests:killing people
  • State:VIC

Posted 01 October 2007 - 03:02 PM

I've got road tyres on it currently - they are loud as all f_ck!

And you are correct I do have a diesel patrol and I cant expect too much - but I dont have a 3L patrol so its not too noisy and its not going to randomly blow up on me :P

3 packs over an entire 4x4 isnt that much - that should just do front doors well - rears slightly and cargo doors and area lightly in problem areas

'01 GU II TD42T
4" Suspension Stuff / Dobinsons Flexi Coils, Amada Xtreme remote reservoir shocks, evolution drop boxes, 80 series bump stops, braided extended brake lines, 18/20mm swaybars, superior swaybar disconnects, 285/75R16 MT MTZs, 3" Scotts Rods Exhaust, Tigerz11 12,000lbs Grande winch w/dyneema rope.
Custom dents and scratches reminding me of the good times ;)


#5 Marc ♫

    3kW Power House

  • Admin
  • 17,574 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sunbury
  • State:VIC

Posted 01 October 2007 - 03:23 PM

Firewall and inner guards are your target areas, and where 90% of road noise gets in :)

Posted Image


#6 mangrovejack

    500 - 1500w RMS

  • Members
  • 700 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brisbane
  • State:QLD

Posted 01 October 2007 - 04:01 PM

Marc, on Oct 1 2007, 03:23 PM, said:

Firewall and inner guards are your target areas, and where 90% of road noise gets in :)

Marc's got it spot on - why do you think Lexus spend so much money soundproofing their firewalls (sand filled in the older Lexus', not sure if the new ones are like that). And to sound proof those areas, you need felt (or Jute), and some nice thick quality stuff at that. I would put down dynamat first and then put as much felt as you can over those areas. Also, is yours the poverty pack Patrol with vinyl floors or does it have carpet? The quality of the carpet can make a difference also.

#7 Captn_Awesome

    All round top bloke

  • Members
  • 5,737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:'burn city bitches
  • Interests:killing people
  • State:VIC

Posted 01 October 2007 - 04:48 PM

Its an ST wagon.
Basically in the GU I / II / III they had 3 "levels" the DX, the ST and the Ti (Ti is for homos that never go off road - ST is for those of us who go off road but unfortunately spend too much time on the black stuff so we want a little luxury and the DX is for bush bunnies and company cars)

I've got carpet floors.

And yes wheel arches will be getting hit from both sides (spray on the underside and dynamat on the outside). Firewall is an area I'm very open to suggestions - although I'm going to miss the whistle from the turbo (might need to invest in an external waste gate mod and a 3" zorst just to keep that lovin' feeling).

I'm spending a bit of coin on the 'trol at the moment as the boss is giving me a bit of coin to spend

Edited by Komodo, 01 October 2007 - 05:05 PM.

'01 GU II TD42T
4" Suspension Stuff / Dobinsons Flexi Coils, Amada Xtreme remote reservoir shocks, evolution drop boxes, 80 series bump stops, braided extended brake lines, 18/20mm swaybars, superior swaybar disconnects, 285/75R16 MT MTZs, 3" Scotts Rods Exhaust, Tigerz11 12,000lbs Grande winch w/dyneema rope.
Custom dents and scratches reminding me of the good times ;)


#8 ultim8DTM5

    1500 - 3000w RMS

  • Members
  • 2,294 posts
  • State:NSW

Posted 01 October 2007 - 06:12 PM

mangrovejack, on Oct 1 2007, 04:01 PM, said:

Marc's got it spot on - why do you think Lexus spend so much money soundproofing their firewalls (sand filled in the older Lexus', not sure if the new ones are like that). And to sound proof those areas, you need felt (or Jute), and some nice thick quality stuff at that. I would put down dynamat first and then put as much felt as you can over those areas. Also, is yours the poverty pack Patrol with vinyl floors or does it have carpet? The quality of the carpet can make a difference also.


The barina has a sand-filled firewall :P

Quote

Andy Jones, IASCA Street X SQL is code for "I half ass everything." Basically you are saying you are not loud enough to do SPL, and have no idea what it takes to do Sound Quality. So you meet in the middle with a quiet system that sounds like ass. Good job at being mediocre.

#9 abmolech

    25 - 250w RMS

  • Members
  • 399 posts
  • State:NSW

Posted 01 October 2007 - 06:21 PM

It depends how serious you are.

Your main target passband is between 50 Hz and 250 Hz for road noise.
At this frequency range sound absorbers are impractical.
Weapons of choice.

Decoupling
Essentially this is what Dynamatt etc seek to achieve (more on that later). A decoupler is a reducer of energy of transfer, its primary function is to turn (or limit) the amount of energy transfered, by dissipating it as heat. (In fact most sound barriers do the same but in different ways). A very good example is your engine mounts, and various exhaust attachments. Less well known, but almost equally important is your suspension and steering linkages. The electrical equivalent is a resistor.
First route is to replace or upgrade these as necessary. Serious gains can be made there.

Sound deadener's.
These are a combination of a decoupler and blocker. (aluminium backing) The best sound deadener's have these properties.
1/ Heat range useful for maintaining adhesion
2/ A suitable elastic material that resists deformation, and more importantly returns to original shape.
3/ A heavy backing that helps with blocking, and creates an acoustic impedance difference between the elastic material and the metal panel. (sandwich)
4/ Fumes, and gases not harmful.

You may well note that spray on deadener's cannot decouple, and provide very little blocking ability. They do however help reduce stone chip noise, and applied correctly, inhibit rust. I suggest this should be its primary use.

To maximise the cost advantage of sound deadening they should only be used on large flat panels (doors roof etc) away from the panel edges (6 inches). There are cheaper and better alternatives for blockers.
Putting sound deadening on a firewall is a VERY costly use of sound deadening, that can only block. (The firewall is too convoluted for decoupling advantage)

Blockers
Best bang for the buck. Aluminium, copper and lead are the best. 1 mm thick lead can attenuate 125 Hz wave 24 dB. To give you a clue, your car panel attenuates it by 12 dB and your glass by 22 dB (6mm)
Point.
Glass will be the biggest limiter, therefore use a blocker to equal glass attenuation.
Aluminium foil,vinyl and rubber are your "best friends" 2mm thick aluminium would take 4 layers of Dynamatt to equal. You can layer it up for ease of install. Use it everywhere. Blockers use reflection as their primary sound reduction method, and are superior to all else in matters of efficiency of sound attenuation. 0.5 mm thick lead on metal panels will exceed 6 mm glass. 2 mm aluminium will do the same. Or 90 mm thick wood. (Just trying to give you a perspective of just how good these are)

Save yourself some money and forget chant etc. These 'diffusers' are nothing short of a sad joke. The best they can hope for is changing the panel resonance frequency by adding mass.

Diffraction.
If an object is equal to or larger than the one quarter of frequency length it will diffract a wave. This causes the wave to "go around corners", and energy is lost in the form of heat in this action. This is the primary function of absorbers, to diffract a wave. (IE to cause it to go through a labyrinth) If a wave is large in comparison to the absorber thickness, very little will be lost to heat. Hint a 250 Hz wave is approximately four feet long, and therefore would require an absorber to be 1 foot thick, to have any realistic chance of diffraction. If will let you ponder the thickness of attention for a 50 Hz wave in your vehicle.

Your primary source of noise is the motor and tyres.
The firewall can often benefit from a blocker, however your primary sound ingress is your door panels and roof. Next is the floor. Remember you are limited by glass attenuation. Wind the window down to hear just how good it is.
Once you have maximised these areas, the only choice is to reduce the noise at its source.

Edited by abmolech, 01 October 2007 - 06:25 PM.


#10 Matt VIP

    Got loud yet?.....nope...

  • Members
  • 4,090 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Coburg is real.
  • State:ACT

Posted 01 October 2007 - 06:53 PM

...
the other way would be to increase the internal noise within the vehicle to a point where the internal sound wave exerts a greater pressure inside the cabin than the external sound. if you keep increasing this internal sound to a point where you cannot hear any more, then all the excess product used as diffuser/blocker becomes a mute point.

Edited by VIP318, 01 October 2007 - 07:05 PM.

Posted Image

Those interested in ACT events click here!


Quote

The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost. Their behavior changes with the signal level dependent dynamics of the drivers. They block the power amplifier from taking maximum control over the voice coil motion. They are a waste of time, if accuracy of reproduction is the goal.

~Spyne~, on 18 December 2009 - 09:05 AM, said:

my vibe tastes like hedgehog slice

#11 Pulse-R

    Digital is only on or off

  • Verified Trader
  • 11,176 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne, VIC
  • Interests:Audio, Computers, Mobile Electronics
  • State:VIC

Posted 01 October 2007 - 07:44 PM

I'd go dynamat then aluminium sheet on the firewall, then nice thick carpet underlay (the fibrous stuff, not foam).

doors and wheel arches next - dynamat and thick carpet underlay on the arches, dynamat on the doors, and make sure the door seals are nice and tight - worn seals will let noise in.

the roof - only if it vibrates, same with rear doors and tailgate.

the whole floor - maybe dynamat, and some sheets of thick heavy stuff

as abmolech says - decoupling is the best way.
http://www.melbourneaudioclub.org.au
http://www.aes.org
MEASQ 2008 National Judges' Choice
MEASQ 2009 Victorian Runner Up - Expert Class, National Champion - Expert Class
dB Drag 2008 Street A: 147.2dB @ 46Hz
VK3TUG - Life's too short to QRP

~Spyne~, on 15 July 2009 - 07:33 PM, said:

gear = wank unless it's installed
Note to self: Install more gear.
TEAM Floor-Pods

#12 Captn_Awesome

    All round top bloke

  • Members
  • 5,737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:'burn city bitches
  • Interests:killing people
  • State:VIC

Posted 04 October 2007 - 12:07 PM

what thickness aluminum sheeting should i use

'01 GU II TD42T
4" Suspension Stuff / Dobinsons Flexi Coils, Amada Xtreme remote reservoir shocks, evolution drop boxes, 80 series bump stops, braided extended brake lines, 18/20mm swaybars, superior swaybar disconnects, 285/75R16 MT MTZs, 3" Scotts Rods Exhaust, Tigerz11 12,000lbs Grande winch w/dyneema rope.
Custom dents and scratches reminding me of the good times ;)


#13 abmolech

    25 - 250w RMS

  • Members
  • 399 posts
  • State:NSW

Posted 04 October 2007 - 01:51 PM

Quote

what thickness aluminium sheeting should i use

It is a cost versus ease of install, glue is not cheap.

I use builders foil (fire stop insulation)

#14 Sotiri

    25 - 250w RMS

  • Members
  • 75 posts
  • State:Other

Posted 04 October 2007 - 02:50 PM

If your planning to use Dynamat its a good idea to visit their website and check out the products and how they work. There's even data sheets showing how to install the stuff.

Ideally most people that want to reduce noise will use Dynamat extreme: http://www.dynamat.com/products_automotive...mat_xtreme.html

Then cover it with Dynapad: http://www.dynamat.com/products_automotive_dynapad.html

The suggestions on where to put it given already are very informative so I'm not going to repeat it again. Dynamat is an easy product to install and it makes a big diffence to the sound. On the website your can view data sheets that record the difference between using Dynamat compared to using none: http://www.dynamat.com/technical_technical.html
then click on a similar car to yours: http://www.dynamat.com/download/vss/2654_2...nda_Element.pdf

I have a friend with a long wheelbase TD Patrol. He asked me how to reduce noise. He followed the instructions above and was very satisfied with the results. He said it also improved the sound of his stereo.

#15 Captn_Awesome

    All round top bloke

  • Members
  • 5,737 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:'burn city bitches
  • Interests:killing people
  • State:VIC

Posted 04 October 2007 - 03:02 PM

as in fire rated insulation foil?

Ohhh I was thinking aluminium sheeting lol like 0.5 - 0.8mm thick I even made enquiries on where to get it from one of our suppliers.

'01 GU II TD42T
4" Suspension Stuff / Dobinsons Flexi Coils, Amada Xtreme remote reservoir shocks, evolution drop boxes, 80 series bump stops, braided extended brake lines, 18/20mm swaybars, superior swaybar disconnects, 285/75R16 MT MTZs, 3" Scotts Rods Exhaust, Tigerz11 12,000lbs Grande winch w/dyneema rope.
Custom dents and scratches reminding me of the good times ;)






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users