39 replies to this topic

[abmolech]

Every so often we sit back and ponder over what we might do differently to the many "failed" installs gone before.
Failed?
We use a stereo signal, and our stage is no wider than our drivers, and not much more than our bonnet.
Welcome to the world of panned monophonic. Moving the drivers still limits us to their positions, as the defining space.

I will mention ONE possible alternative to this madness.
Ambiphonics.
This is a viable listening format.
Try before you buy?
Hopefully at home you have stereo system. What is required is a repositioning of the speakers to the centre of the listening, facing apart by 30 degrees. (15 degree azimuth) Next is a suitable recording, or re-master.
http://www.ambiophonics.org/Ambiofiles.htm

Which vehicles might be suitable for ambiphonics?
Vans, any car with an over large centre console, or perhaps one without a centre console at all.

http://www.angelofarina.it/ASK/home.htm

Quadraphonics is simply ambiphonics with an ambiphonics rear channels.

[Big_Valven]

It's an interesting technique although I think it is still less suitable than regular stereo for use in a car. The problem is the driver / listening position is still positioned to one side of the speakers, putting it directly in line with one of the speakers, which, at a rough guess, would completely destroy imaging. At least with conventional stereo, both speakers are still facing the listener, whereas what you've described would have one speaker optimally facing the listener and one facing the other direction.

Don't take this as closed minded conversation, more as technical discussion.

[Matt VIP]

setting up an ambiophonic system is a little more tricky than that, though, abmo.

a car-pc with the right software (all in beta versions) is the bare minimum, and from what I've seen it takes a little bit of knowledge to understand how to use it all, especially when there are no "car ambiophonics for dummies" books going around. All the stuff written about it that I've found is audiophile/acoustic engineer level.

secondly, dont you have to be seated in front of the two speakers (ie have the left and right speaker at 10 degrees from where you're sitting) like this?




I'm not suggesting for an instant that its not worth looking into and trying out, but achieving a crosstalk free playback on the fly, coupled with correct speaker placement and tuning to gain the full effect seems quite complicated.

i'm enjoying reading about it though!

http://www.filmaker.com/2dsurround.htm


[jk]I reckon it might just be easier to buy a JBL MS-8 when they actually bother to release it... [/jk]

Edited by VIP318, 03 October 2007 - 02:31 PM.

[abmolech]

Quote

It's an interesting technique although I think it is still less suitable than regular stereo for use in a car. The problem is the driver / listening position is still positioned to one side of the speakers, putting it directly in line with one of the speakers, which, at a rough guess, would completely destroy imaging. At least with conventional stereo, both speakers are still facing the listener, whereas what you've described would have one speaker optimally facing the listener and one facing the other direction.

Do you completely destroy imaging on a stereo setup by not having the speakers in an equilateral triangle?
Unless the acoustic crosstalk matches the position of the speakers the answer is yes.

The question for ambiphonics is what tolerance can there be?
As long as you are within the sweet spot area, then the illusion will still work.
We know sound radiates in spheres, the question arises therefore, at what azimuth will the illusion collapse?

I suggest a simple test at home will answer this test.

I might point out that there are only two types of live concert genres.
Monophonic (or perhaps panned monophonic) is by FAR the most common.
Ambiphonics and quadraphonics is its only other competitor.

Note stereo does not feature, nor its variants, IE 3.1 , surround sound, logic7 etc.

How is it that ambiphonics can create a successful stage over such a wide listening area?
Clue
Ambiphonics has a VERY large sweet spot.

Quote

a car-pc with the right software (all in beta versions) is the bare minimum, and from what I've seen it takes a little bit of knowledge to understand how to use it all, especially when there are no "car ambiophonics for dummies" books going around. All the stuff written about it that I've found is audiophile/acoustic engineer level.

You could pre record your Cd's

Edited by abmolech, 03 October 2007 - 03:51 PM.

[SCorpion]

abmolech, on Oct 3 2007, 03:46 PM, said:

You could pre record your Cd's

i will give this a try this weekend if u can point me in the direction of how to pre record my cd's. is there a program that does it and then burns, or is it a requirement from the mike placing point of view

EDIT: found something http://www.ambiophonics.org/Ambiofiles.htm dunno whether i have gotten it to work yet. be persistent, im gonna try a few different things and then wack em on a new cd and try it this weekend!!

Edited by SCorpion, 03 October 2007 - 05:25 PM.

[Iceman_jkh]

CarPc's ?
Thats the stupidest idea ever!
What software would you suggest? Abmo - pity ur not in Vic, could demo you some things I have .

[Pulse-R]

The car PC would run any of the selection of plugin drivers - Angelo Farina has a beta of a realtime filter.

as for listening to stereo in a non-optimal position: If the system is truly high-end enough, I have heard now two (relatively inexpensive) systems which image perfectly from anywhere in the room. To transpose this into a car, you'd have to reduce the reflections, and would certainly need to be far-field at all frequencies above 80Hz.

[SCorpion]

i had a fiddle just with that program i linked and with my computer speakers and i think this may warrant some serious investigation in car!!

im curious ambolech, do u use ambiophonics in car?

[Wh33lzz]

Would re-mastering the Chesky 10 Best disk for ambiophonics, for use in competition, be against the rules? Im assuming only re-mastered signals will work with this type of speaker placement.

Still I like the idea of this and it's certainly worth some serious investigation.

[austin-towers]

Wh33lzz, on Oct 6 2007, 07:31 PM, said:

Would re-mastering the Chesky 10 Best disk for ambiophonics, for use in competition, be against the rules? Im assuming only re-mastered signals will work with this type of speaker placement.

As mentioned above, there is software for real time crosstalk removal, if you have a carputer.
Nice thread abmolech.

[~thematt~]

Pulse-R, on Oct 6 2007, 09:44 AM, said:

would certainly need to be far-field at all frequencies above 80Hz.

Not as difficult as it may seem. In a commodore or another large car, its almost too easy!!

[abmolech]

To be honest I am a Monophonic fan boy.

I wished to show that their "other possibilities", than stereo.

Stereo relies on the "right amount" of acoustic crosstalk to give the illusion of the image being behind the speakers. This is time based, unfortunately it cannot prevent acoustic crosstalk in the intensity locational frequencies, and suffers because of this. It can produce an acceptable stage in the right room, and a small listening position.

I simply believe stereo is a poor solution for a car, because it cannot address the most pressing issue. SPACE

Ambiphonics has a much larger listening position, as pointed out earlier. If the centre console is large enough, or perhaps none at all, it maybe the "ideal solution".

It is distressing that a large acoustically innovative group, are so closed minded for sound reproduction.Especially when one can try at home without much of a time and cost prospective. I guess it may take someone "winning a car competition" to open some peoples perspective.
Congratulations SCorpion, you are one of the few intelligent people. (In my day intelligence was rated as how curious you were, rather than how much information you could regurgitate) Now if I could get some of the magic cable crowd to swap the antenna cable, that would REALLY be a feat.

I suggest you discover how wide of a listening position you can obtain with ambiphonics, changing the angle between 10 -15 degrees may be beneficial in the nearfield. If you REALLY brave, or perhaps open minded, try Quadraphonics. this is another set of delayed ambiphonics speakers directly behind you. This setup would achieve the best sound stage possible in such a poor room (car)
Ambiphonics has a similar weakness to stereo, in that it has no mechanism for vertical cues. Still the dash may present a much better option than "A" pillars, or if your keen, the interior mirror. If you use the interior mirror for small format tweeters, the illusion will trump ANY car stereo system. There is no way (OK monophonic) that stereo could possibly compete.

Quote

as for listening to stereo in a non-optimal position: If the system is truly high-end enough, I have heard now two (relatively inexpensive) systems which image perfectly from anywhere in the room. To transpose this into a car, you'd have to reduce the reflections, and would certainly need to be far-field at all frequencies above 80Hz.

You are listening to panned monophonic, if you understand stereo limitations, there is no possibly of maintaining an image beyond the speakers. Yes panned monophonic is a step up from stereo.
A single monophonic setup would trounce this. Remember, the recording studio would have similar reflections.

[SCorpion]

abmolech, on Oct 7 2007, 02:02 AM, said:

It is distressing that a large acoustically innovative group, are so closed minded for sound reproduction.Especially when one can try at home without much of a time and cost prospective. I guess it may take someone "winning a car competition" to open some peoples perspective.
Congratulations SCorpion, you are one of the few intelligent people. (In my day intelligence was rated as how curious you were, rather than how much information you could regurgitate) Now if I could get some of the magic cable crowd to swap the antenna cable, that would REALLY be a feat.

if it has any chance of working @ around 15 degrees off centre than im laughin. just have to work it out.

its certainly going to get serious attention. i believe that it is going to be substantially easier to install and much easier to tune. we shall see how we go, i just have to pull the dash out of the car which i have to do anyway.



dont start on the magic cable guys, im still trying to convince ppl that the POWER cables dont make a difference

[abmolech]

Try a mock up in your computer room.
Gauge how close you can sit to the speakers, and how far off axis the listening position can be without serious loss in imaging. It should give you some idea of ambiphonics limitations. I would suggest that it should easily surpass stereo.(It isn't exactly hard to beat stereo )

[SCorpion]

abmolech, on Oct 7 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

Try a mock up in your computer room.
Gauge how close you can sit to the speakers, and how far off axis the listening position can be without serious loss in imaging. It should give you some idea of ambiphonics limitations. I would suggest that it should easily surpass stereo.(It isn't exactly hard to beat stereo )

done that, thats why im getting serious as i *think* it can do it.