DRu_naSTY
Sep 16 2002, 05:53 PM
Firstly i wanna say hello to everyone as im new to the forum!
Secondly, im driving a 1998 VT Berlina, i have installed the Clarion DRX9675z and VNET2100, and im running a **** set of kenwood 6x9's and laid a house speaker in the boot... running it all off the VNET2100 (i know running 3 speakers off a 2 channel amp isnt good, but what can ya do!)...
This setup is only temporary until i can make a decision which way to head, and i was wanting some advice on how i can get a half decent stereo without too much hassle.
A friend offered a 1000 watt 12" cerwin vega stroker to me, but after visiting JB and being told i'll need a new battery, new alternator, capacitor, sub box, and enourmously powerful amp... it kind of put me off as my wallet was hurting just thinking about it!
My next thought is why dont i keep it neat and stick with the clarion theme, and get a VNET4150 and two of the SVC 12" silver coned Clarion subs, but again, a few remarks from different people have led me to believe that this kind of setup is rather *pathetic*.
I would like some comments/advice on how well these clarion subs and other equipment do perform and are they absolute junk or will they actually give me some nice sound??
I've heard alot of mixed comments.
I was also wondering if anyone could steer me in the right direction.
Im planning to get a set of splits for the front and run them off the VNET2100, and im open to suggestion for an amp/sub combo.
SPL isnt a big interest of mine, so im going SQ! SQ! SQ!
I also listen to alot of R&B/HipHop/Funk/Slowjams so taking this into consideration also.
Thanks again!

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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
DRu_naSTY
Sep 16 2002, 06:15 PM
People ive just had an update on the Stroker situation.
Ive been told that if i get the 1000 watt 12" Cerwin Vega Stroker, get a Lanzar 1200D or equivalent, and simply get a bigger battery, all should run perfect.
Considering the cost of the stroker would be approx. $500, and a 2nd hand Lanzar 1200D is around $600, that works out pretty much the same, if not, cheaper than buying two average 12" clarions and a VNET4150.
And from what i hear, the reputation of the Stroker is ENOURMOUS and the two clarions wouldnt even come close to the stroker.
Anybody got some advice/comments for me?
Thanks again!!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
Mr_Bob
Sep 16 2002, 06:21 PM
yep, grab that stroker!!!
they're ugly subs, but they make ALLOTTA noise

(assuming you have enough power to them

)
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'96 Mirage, currently resembling a tin can
uninstalled: Rockford RFX9300, Focal 165W3's Vrx 2.150 & 1.500
Power by: HERTZ audison OPTIMA StingerAerpro
TEAM AUDISON
shane_o
Sep 16 2002, 07:00 PM
unfortunately noise is about all they make......not a very good sq sub from what i have heard, more an spl sub
cheers
shane-o
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HU: Nakamichi 45z
Speakers: Philips GTM1750 Front and rear
Subs: 3*Soundstream SPL Mules
Fr Amp: Clarion VNET 2100
Rr Amp: Clarion VNET 250
Sub Amp: Earthquake D2
Acc: Stinger Cap
shiny_car
Sep 16 2002, 07:20 PM
welcome to CAA!
quote:
Originally posted by DRu_naSTY:
A friend offered a 1000 watt 12" cerwin vega stroker to me, but after visiting JB and being told i'll need a new battery, new alternator, capacitor, sub box, and enourmously powerful amp... it kind of put me off as my wallet was hurting just thinking about it!
sounds like a sales pitch to me. i've had no experience with the stroker's, but a decent amp will drive them nicely, without the need for a new batt/alt/cap! your car is modern enough that the existing electricals will be ok. by all means upgrade everything, but for not much benefit IMO.
quoteQUOTE
I would like some comments/advice on how well these clarion subs and other equipment do perform and are they absolute junk or will they actually give me some nice sound??
firstly, everyone's 'idea' of what sounds good is different. some of us run >$10K of components in the car and love it, others are more than happy with $2K of stuff. not that cost necessarily reflects SQ, but you probably need to get out and experience all levels of car audio to find what suits your tastes and budget.
VNET stuff is very decent budget-priced equipment, but nothing special IMO. and i would generally recommend looking at the midprice stuff for i think the benefits are there: audible improvement in SQ, better power handling, better build quality, better features, should keep you happier for longer.
quote:
Im planning to get a set of splits for the front and run them off the VNET2100, and im open to suggestion for an amp/sub combo.
SPL isnt a big interest of mine, so im going SQ! SQ! SQ!
as i suggested, VNETs may be your idea of SQ, but i personally don't see them as anything special.
i good approach to building a system is:
1. work out the overall configuration for your system: how many amps, what size speakers/sub
2. determine your budget and time frame to build up the system: many people build their systems over many months/years so that they may buy higher quality components along the way
3. then work out what components
4. don't forget to consider the power wiring/cabling, and the subbox
5. install it!
it sounds like you're after at least a 2-amp system. this way you can buy dedicated amps for the job.
for the same money, most people prefer to buy a 2-channel amp for the front splits and run any rears directly off the HU. whereas a 4-channel amp will likely buy you a lesser amp. most midpriced splits will thrive off a quality amp offering 50~80WRMS per channel, and probably much nicer than the more powerful VNET2100.
for subs, a nice grunty subamp is good. indeed something like the class D lanzar would be ideal. being a dedicated subamp, it will be built around a decently sized internal powersupply, and offer a lot of grunt; typically much better than using a bridged 2 or 4-channel amp.
the sub itself...well, the stroker's certainly have a good reputation for being loud. i've never auditioned one used for SQ. with your large car, it may well take 2x 12" subs for quality subbass, although a single premium sub with good power on tap and in a well-designed box can also be excellent.
lots to consider. not sure on your overall budget, but a good midpriced setup could be:
*alpine MRV-T320 amp RRP$499: 2x50WRMS into 4ohm at 12V
*boston accoustic, focal, mb quart, hertz, etc 6~6.5" splits ~$500
*alpine MRD-M500 amp RRP$799: 1x500WRMS into 2ohm at 14.4V
*alpine, JL, hertz, etc 12" subs x2 ~$400 each
do you already have a good headunit (HU)?
anyway, there's heaps of components to choose from obviously. you can choose stuff above or below my suggestion, and still create an excellent SQ system.
good luck 
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/////ALPINE audison DYNAUDIO »»»morel polkaudio OPTIMA Stinger LIGHTNINGAUDIO
Issues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email]
[Edited 1 time by shiny_car on 16 September 2002 at 17:22]
DRu_naSTY
Sep 16 2002, 07:28 PM
Yeah im running a Clarion DRX9675z.
6 channel RCA output, 24bit DAC, 7 band digital EQ, 64 colour LCD screen.
It's last years flagship clarion head unit, and its pretty decent from what i hear.
Im planning to use the VNET2100 for splits up the front, and unless i grab a 4 channel amp from somewhere, im not gonna be having sound in the back for a while as the HU doesnt have an in-built amplifier, meaning EVERYTHING must be run from an amp.
Also, i wasnt saying the VNET2100 was any good for SQ, but since i already have it, i'll use it for the splits.
As far as the sub goes, the reason i was considering the stroker is because ive heard ALOT of good things about the sub.
That, and the fact that a friend can get one for me rather cheap, it worked out that one 12" stroker would cost the same as two kiddie distortion creating 12"s.
The good people of #CarAudioAustralia pretty much told me to grab the stroker and pickup a Lanzar 1200D second hand for around $600, and that should set me on my way to having what might be called a "decent" setup.
What do you think?
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
shiny_car
Sep 16 2002, 07:51 PM
whoops, you already mentioned the clarion HU in your opening post.

nice HU, a few Members use them

the VNET will be fine to run some splits, so it makes sense to use what you have now, and consider upgrading down the track.
i can't comment on the stroker coz i've never heard one. so i'm not sure what sort of box suits SQ. perhaps you can get hold of the relevant thiele-small specs for it (Fs, Qts, Vas) with which people can suggest a suitable box.
have you listened to one yourself?

the lanzar will be fine too. being class D, it should be ~80% efficient and not be too much of a load on the electricals.
if the amps are in the boot, then i suggest using at least 4awg main powerwire, if not 2awg. feed it into a distribution block (DB) then run 4 or 8awg from there to each amp; 8awg will be fine when the lengths are short (eg: <0.5m each).
hope this helps.

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/////ALPINE audison DYNAUDIO »»»morel polkaudio OPTIMA Stinger LIGHTNINGAUDIOIssues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email]
Sonic Nirvana
Sep 17 2002, 10:55 AM
DRu_naSTY, welcome aboard.
Much useful stuff has already been said, but I will try and "encapsulate"

You do have a top-class HU there, an excellent start.
I'm unsure whether the Stroker sub is what I'd call "SQ, SQ, SQ" even tho' it IS a good sub. For that duty, an Alpine Type R 12" or Image Dynamics IDQ12v.2 or similar would be more the call I think.
That Lanzar Class D will do the job fine tho'.
Front splits to taste and budget, but as has been alluded already the VNET2100 will get you going OK for front stage duties as you already have it.
But in the context of the rest of the system you are looking to put together is likely the weak link, and you would prob look to upgrade in the future.
Of course when you get the system together, if you are happy with the sound you are getting, then no probs, save the $$ and it's all good.
Hope that helps.
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Mazda SP20 - NOT yellow,Dynamat Extreme and G Spot in front doors
HU - Alpine CDA-7876RB
Audison VRx 2.150EX front stage amp
JL Audio 500/1 Class D monoblock sub amp
Front Stage - Morel HCW 6.5 woofers, Morel MT2 tweeters, Morel MX2.2 x-overs.
Rear fill - stockies with power from HU (not that they get any)
Sub - Kicker S12L72 in 75 litre 30Hz slot-ported display box.
Stinger cables and connectors etc
TEAM AUDISON SQ WITH ATTITUDE
DRu_naSTY
Sep 17 2002, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the wiring tips.
Not much an electrics man, so i cant say that i know what a Distribution Block is, but i get the jist of it!
From what i can gather, it would be similar to a HUB used on a network, and splits the power off into multiple connections?
Anyway, I cant say that I have heard a Stroker before, I have only heard of its reputation.
Majority of people have told me its no good for SQ, but thumps out ENOURMOUS loads of bass.
I guess i'll look around for some specs and post them on here so i can get some advice on the dimensions i should make the enclosure for it.
Thanks again!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
DRu_naSTY
Sep 17 2002, 11:07 AM
I have located some specs for the sub, and they go as following:
fs - 45Hz
Qts - 0.230
Qms - 8.880
Qes - 0.231
Vas - .76 ft3
I have no previous experience with building boxes for subs, so any advice would be great.
More specs can be found at
http://www.cerwinvega.com/products/pdf/str...rs/apstkr12.pdf Thanks guys, you've been a great help so far!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
shiny_car
Sep 17 2002, 11:34 AM
hmm, those specs seriously don't make much for an SQ sub.

the Fs is so high, it'll make tuning the port relatively high, which is not SQ-biased. and the response curve (on WinISD) is very un-SQ. so indeed it's designed with SPL in mind.
i would have to agree with critter's call here, that you should consider other subs too if you're headed the SQ way, as i can't see the stroker being musical at all.
but, firstly i'm no box design guru, and secondly the proof is in the pudding and i've not auditioned a stroker, so i may well be wrong.

good luck

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/////ALPINE audison DYNAUDIO »»»morel polkaudio OPTIMA Stinger LIGHTNINGAUDIOIssues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email] [Edited 1 time by shiny_car on 17 September 2002 at 09:36]
DRu_naSTY
Sep 17 2002, 11:42 AM
The proof is in the pudding hey... I like that comment! hahah!
Yeah im thinking maybe i avoid the stroker all together and go for an Alpine Type R or something.
Would the Lanzar 1200D be capable of running two of these subs? Or would i need to go for an amp with more power again?
I always wanted to run twin 12"s, the only reason i was gonna run a single stroker is because of the amount of power one of those things sucks!
Does anyone have some specs for the sub that i can look at?
Ive got my heart set on setting up a system that makes u turn to water just listening to it, rather than just a vibrating box of crap.
I love you guys! You're all WAY more help than any salesman could ever be!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
fraal_moo
Sep 17 2002, 05:33 PM
From what I've read (on here), Alpine Type R's are great for SQ in both ported and sealed boxes

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HU: Clarion DRX7675z
FRONT STAGE: Blaupunkt GT6 6.5" Splits
FRONT AMP: Coustic 240SE
SUB: JL Audio 12" W0-4
SUB AMP: Clarion Vnet 2100
WIRING: Aerpro 8GA power cable and home made UTP RCAs :P
Axis - "Muahahaha!"
superVT
Sep 17 2002, 06:08 PM
i heard that vnets aren't too good for SQ
so thats why you should sell your 2100 to me

P.S. soz critter, Tbro for the useless post .. delete if needed.
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Got Rice b*tch? Got Rice?
Got food, got soup, got Spice?
TEAM FREE-AIR
DRu_naSTY
Sep 17 2002, 06:20 PM
Hahahah... buddie my VT is better than your VT!!!
And mine is SILVER... to match the SILVER coloured VNET... SO NERRRRRRRR!!!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
shiny_car
Sep 17 2002, 07:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DRu_naSTY:
Would the Lanzar 1200D be capable of running two of these subs?
no probs there. i believe it's rated at:
400WRMS mono at 4 ohms
750WRMS mono at 2 ohms
1200WRMS mono at 1 ohm
i'd recommend going with 2x 4ohm subs for an overall 2ohm (wiring them in parallel), and haveing 750WRMS on tap between the two. that's plenty of power, especially as it will be
genuine grunt and not a 'spec on paper' as with most 2-channel amps (which, when bridged to drive subs, struggle to sound gutsy and drop their power). running the amp at 1ohm obviously offers more power, but this benefit is outweighed by the extra heat and power consumed IMO.
with the alpine dual voicecoil type-R's, you'll need the DVC 2+2ohm SWR-1221D version.
quoteQUOTE
Does anyone have some specs for the sub that i can look at?
i presume you're referring to the alpine type-R 12":
*RRP$399, street price reasonably less
*Fs 27Hz
*Qts 0.38
*Vas 58L
*300WRMS handling
*suits sealed 1cuft or ported 1.5~1.7cuft tuned to 28~30Hz
excellent sub for the money. more info on the alpine websites in the links section (see US website).
however, in this price bracket there are other options, including the venerable JL audio 12W3 DVC sub and image dynamics IDQ12v.2 DVC, both excellent.
hope this helps. 
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Issues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email]
DRu_naSTY
Sep 17 2002, 10:24 PM
Ahhhh yes, thanks for that info.
Id have to say I cant go for the JL's, no matter how good they are.
A good friend of mine has two 12" JL's... probably about 2 years old... since the appearance of the subs havent really changed at all, id look like i was ripping him off, and we cant have that can we??
Ahahaha, sounds pathetic, but its gotta be NON-JL so i dont get labelled a COPIER!
When you say get a set of 4ohm subs (dual voice coil 2ohm) and wire them in parallel, would u like to break it down for me?
Ive never had to deal with, nor have I seen subs wired in parallel before, so I'm unsure as to its meaning.
Sorry once again for my lameness, but you gotta learn from somewhere right?
Thanks again!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
Sonic Nirvana
Sep 17 2002, 11:49 PM
The amp is fine, no probs

Yes, go a total 2 ohm load, paralleling 2 x 4 ohm subs.
If you go with Type R's, then get single voice coils as I believe the dual is 2 x 4 ohms.
Depends what you are after from the subs, if you want to go LOW

then you will need bigger boxes than shiny's suggestions *ducks from the "boss"*.
Sealed 50 litres is good
per sub ,have experience with this set-up and it works very nice.
Ported, will need bigger but not much, depends on your space etc as to what is practical to tune low with the port lengths. You want a decent port area with twin 12s, so long ports.
Image Dynamics, I'd go sealed and the box can be smaller than with Type R's, say 30 litres each.
For SQ, make these boxes RIGID.
------------------
Mazda SP20 - NOT yellow,Dynamat Extreme and G Spot in front doors
HU - Alpine CDA-7876RB
Audison VRx 2.150EX front stage amp
JL Audio 500/1 Class D monoblock sub amp
Front Stage - Morel HCW 6.5 woofers, Morel MT2 tweeters, Morel MX2.2 x-overs.
Rear fill - stockies with power from HU (not that they get any)
Sub - Kicker S12L72 in 75 litre 30Hz slot-ported display box.
Stinger cables and connectors etc
TEAM AUDISON SQ WITH ATTITUDE
Hutch
Sep 18 2002, 12:11 AM
For serious SQ potential don't forget the Dynaudio MW190 12" subwoofer in an aperiodic enclosure. If SQ is your bag, this combo will blow you out of the water.
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Hutch
DRu_naSTY
Sep 18 2002, 12:17 AM
Yeah, im driving a VT Commodore, so i have a rather large boot, so space isnt an issue at all really.
I love SQ, but am after a balance between awesome sound, and deep powerful bass.
Basically what im wanting is someone to point me towards an awesome amp/sub combo that will do everything plus more at a rather affordable price.
Seems with the many many different models and brands this is almost impossible, so im basing my setup on the comments im reading from others on this forum.
If someone can suggest an affordable sub/amp setup that will provide awesome quality sound, but deep loudly pounding basslines at the same time, i will be forever in your debt!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
shiny_car
Sep 18 2002, 01:11 AM
hmm, i think the 2002 model alpine type-R's are DVC 2+2ohm, and they phased out the SVC 4ohm model. but i haven't tried buying either, so cannot confirm. the 2002 model is listed as SWR-1221D...DVC 2+2ohm.

either way, you'd want a 4ohm subbie.
for info on wiring DVC subs, refer to the
JL audio tutorials for excellent info on wiring subs.

aperiodic? nice idea, but few of us are experienced with the application. so i won't go there.

i think if you go with ported boxes (critter's far more experienced with box design than me, so go with his suggestions

) for 2 type-R's off the M500 monobloc...it will be very hard to beat for quality, value, and predictability (save substituing for JL or image dynamics subs).
good luck

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/////ALPINE audison DYNAUDIO »»»morel polkaudio OPTIMA Stinger LIGHTNINGAUDIOIssues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email]
DRu_naSTY
Sep 18 2002, 10:38 AM
Yes, you predicted it... another stupid question from yours truely... but can someone explain to me what a monobloc amp is?
I was told theyre specifically designed for driving subs, but i was just wondering whats the major difference that gives them the title 'MONOBLOC'.
Thanks!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
shiny_car
Sep 18 2002, 12:25 PM
a monobloc is basically a 1-channel amp. they are usually designed with driving subs in mind, although you could team a couple suitable ones up for stereo duties (ie: one to run L speakers, another for R).
a good monobloc features:
*big internal powersupply to maintain voltage in the amp circuits: this is essential to sustain high power output when driving 'difficult' loads like subs (unlike tweeters which are very easy to run)
*plenty of internal capacitors which store power (reserve) to also maintain voltage
*high current design that allows you to connect low impedences (eg: 2 or even 1ohm stable): which can apply when running multiple subs
sure, you can bridge most 2-channel amps to create a more powerful 1-channel amp. but most of these amps are built around smaller power supplies and typically suffer from 'voltage sag' when running subs (big bassnotes requires a low of power). so they are no where near as gutsy as a good monobloc. and most 2-channel amps, when bridged, do not drive 2ohm loads, let alone 1ohm.
when running subs, it's generally no big deal to have higher distortion from the amp coz it's inaudible (subs have their own inherent distortion that masks any amp distortion). as such, so-called 'class D' amps are suitable. they work on a different design to the typical class AB multichannel amps and are far more efficient at the expense of distortion. most multichannel amps (2/4/5-channel) are class AB and have 50~60% efficiency. class D are ~80% efficient, losing only ~20% consumed power mostly as heat. so you get far better power output for the amount of power used.
you can of course also get class AB monoblocs, and coz of their low distortion would be fine to run a front stage as a stereo pair.
hope this helps.

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/////ALPINE audison DYNAUDIO »»»morel polkaudio OPTIMA Stinger LIGHTNINGAUDIOIssues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email]
DRu_naSTY
Sep 18 2002, 01:05 PM
Okay, so for powering two 12"s, it seems a monobloc would be the ideal way to go for a combination of SQ and grunt at the same time!
Or am I incorrect in saying that?
Slowly, slowly, im piecing together in my head the ultimate setup.
Now all i need is MONEY!
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1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
Sonic Nirvana
Sep 18 2002, 03:26 PM
The Class D monoblock is the way to go for big power into a low load with maximum efficiency (works your car's electrical system less hard).
They are designed for that job, and the SQ is fine (my JL Class D measures 0.05% distortion.....).
Aperiodic enclosures aren't my thing either so I won't go there....
I expect shiny is more up with what is the latest availability at Alpine but my mate just bought a single voice coil Type R so.....if you go that way just make sure you can make a 4 ohm load with each driver, whatever voice coil arrangements it has.
There are a bunch of excellent sub drivers out there from lots of manufacturers, finding a good one is easy.
------------------
Mazda SP20 - NOT yellow,Dynamat Extreme and G Spot in front doors
HU - Alpine CDA-7876RB
Audison VRx 2.150EX front stage amp
JL Audio 500/1 Class D monoblock sub amp
Front Stage - Morel HCW 6.5 woofers, Morel MT2 tweeters, Morel MX2.2 x-overs.
Rear fill - stockies with power from HU (not that they get any)
Sub - Kicker S12L72 in 75 litre 30Hz slot-ported display box.
Stinger cables and connectors etc
TEAM AUDISON SQ WITH ATTITUDE
DRu_naSTY
Sep 18 2002, 03:38 PM
What confuses the **** outta me is different Ohm's and loads and all the rest of it...
Some subs are 4ohm, but if theyre DVC, theyre 2ohm x 2, and wiring of different subs runs them at different ohms and blah blah... its all too confusing!
Isnt there an easy way?
I sound like an annoying old woman trying to buy a PC at harvey norman dont i?!
------------------
1998 Holden VT Berlina.
Clarion DRX9675z
VNET2100
Bodgy kenwood 6x9's and a bigass house speaker laying down in the boot!
ben_ra23
Sep 18 2002, 04:46 PM
well, i honestly wouldnt go for the MRD 500 Alpine.....When i was looking at one i heard they would only pump 250RMS into each of my Type R's.....
I decided on a couple of Vnet4150's which drive them fine, And if i get the job im waiting on a reply from, i will get ONE Mrd 500 PER sub, then just use one of my 4150's for speakers........Then sell the other
But id honestly look for something a bit more powerful than the alpine digi block.... IMO anyway
There are a few ways to wire it all up, If u have 2 SVC (4ohm) subs, and u wire them in parallel, Then ht eimpedance is halves, So thats 2 ohm, And im not sure about all amps, But my old one when bridged ran at 2ohms, So 2 divided by 2 = 1 ohm load at the amp
Its not the load on subs at all, Just the amp, and if it cant take it, it will cut out and go into protection mode, If u can run your amp at 1ohm stable, then it normally pumps a SH!Tload of power (eg: DLS d1000 1000RMS @ 1 ohm)
If u have 2 SCV subs and wire them in SERIES, the impedance is the total of the VC's, which is 8 ohm thenbridged at 2 ohm, 8/2 = a total load of 4 ohms when briged,
Thats how you can run 2 4ohm svc subs at home on a home stereo, 2 subs in series produces 8ohm so yeah.....
Impedance is basically a resistence, So thats why 1 ohm produces so much power, there is bugger all resistance to the power, And if u wire them in 8 ohm, Then the power getting through is like 1/8 of it would be if in paralell.....
I tink thats right anyway.......
Ben
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No Longer a 1976 RA23 18RG powered Celica!!!
2 Alpine Type R 12" SVC subs sitting in my room next to a couple of Clarion Vnet 4150's, Now all i need to do is decide on a car, then some speakers :(
shiny_car
Sep 18 2002, 09:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ben_ra23:
well, i honestly wouldnt go for the MRD 500 Alpine.....When i was looking at one i heard they would only pump 250RMS into each of my Type R's.....
I decided on a couple of Vnet4150's which drive them fine, And if i get the job im waiting on a reply from, i will get ONE Mrd 500 PER sub, then just use one of my 4150's for speakers
hee,hee, a couple factors to consider:
*sure, there's many options; the VNETs are one of those as is the alpine
*the alpine is class D so is far more efficient and places much less strain on the car's electricals
*as such the alpine is much more likely to have the power supply to produce all the power it can; a couple big class AB amps requires a strong power supply (alt, battery, powerwire (0awg would be nice for 2 VNET4150's), and without it, will never produce the rated power
*like the majority of class D monoblocs, the alpine is built around a high current design and big internal powersupply that maintains voltage through the amp; again ensuring it produces genuine, continuous power as it's rated, when driving subs; a multichannel VNET will have major voltage sags inside and have no chance of producing big numbers driving subs
*with big bassnotes the alpine has a high chance of maintaining gutsy performance without loss of power due to its power supply
*big class AB amps that sag voltage will have less convincing subbass due to insufficient power
how much power do the type-R's need to really hammer? i would suggest 250WRMS is more than ample to make them perform very, very well, and easily make you deaf. and at the same time sound great, with a strong gutsy sound.
would you ever need the power of one VNET4150 per type-R? unlikely, so it's a big waste of potential.
however, i have not done a back to back comparison of these amps. i can only speculate that the alpine will be better
for this application...solid subbass and SQ.
and if money were less of an issue, and SPL was more important, i'd suggest one alpine per 2ohm subbie, no probs.

and of course you can apply my rationale to any class D and class AB amps within you budget. hee,hee, i know what my choice would be.

but of course there do exist some very good class AB 2-channels that do sound gutsy when bridged (eg: old kicker ZR series, hertz dual-mono, dls dual-mono, etc); just expect to pay a premium for them. there are no doubt some 'dog' class D amps too (i don't know any though), and also some fantastic class AB monoblocs (eg: audison VRx1.500 rated up to 1x2000WRMS into 1ohm). you just have to be prudent with your choice.

the formula for working out impedences follows ohm's law:
series wiring:
R1 + R2 +... = R3 (eg: 2 + 2 = 4ohm; as occurs when you wire the 2 VCs of a DVC sub together in series)
parallel wiring:
1/R1 + 1/R2 +... = 1/R3 (eg: 1/2 + 1/2 = 1/1; as occurs when you wire the 2 VCs of a DVC sub in parallel to get 1ohm; also as occurs when you wire 2 separate subs in parallel to an amplifier)
whenever determining the overall impedence of subs, first work out what the impedence of
each [i]sub is (eg: each DVC sub). then work out the overall impedence when you wire these subs up:
eg: 3x DVC 6+6ohm subs
*each sub can be wired for 12ohm (VCs in series) or 3ohm (VCs in parallel)
*3x 12ohm subs wired in parallel = 4ohm (ie: 1/12 + 1/12 + 1/12 = 3/12 = 1/4)
hope this helps. 
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/////ALPINE audison DYNAUDIO »»»morel polkaudio[i] OPTIMA Stinger LIGHTNINGAUDIOIssues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email]
ben_ra23
Sep 19 2002, 12:28 PM
Hey shiny car....
My Vnets are getting a 4Gauge run each.....
Anyway, as i was finishing writing that story, I thought about efficiency, and i know what ur saying....But as im still a student, $$$ was a big issue, So i just got the 2 4150's for 400 each, Rather than buy 2 MRP F500's (which i wanted to do incase of an upgrade of subs) and then a smaller alpine amp (keep it all alpine) for the speakers, and id probably be looking around $1800-$2000 for amps alone! Now i paid for my subs, amps and box and still have change from $2000
Bear in mind, I WANT 2 MRP F500's, and i find out today if im sucessful in my application for Holdens, so if i do, Straight down to Tonkins for a Big layby!
Hehehe I think we have strayed off track a bit though

Cheers for clearing that all up though
By the way, What is the name of equipment to test the output of an amp?
Oscillator? hmmmm that doesnt sound right though :S
Will ask in science class today :D
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No Longer a 1976 RA23 18RG powered Celica!!!
2 Alpine Type R 12" SVC subs sitting in my room next to a couple of Clarion Vnet 4150's, Now all i need to do is decide on a car, then some speakers :(
shiny_car
Sep 19 2002, 03:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ben_ra23:
My Vnets are getting a 4Gauge run each.....
cool. then voltage drop
between the battery and amps will be at a minimum. however, the issue remains, as to whether the alternator and battery are sufficiently buff to keep the voltage up to those amps during loud operation.
quote:
So i just got the 2 4150's for 400 each
Bear in mind, I WANT 2 MRP F500's, and i find out today if im sucessful in my application for Holdens, so if i do, Straight down to Tonkins for a Big layby!
i guess another important point is that...it's kinda false economy to rush out and by some 'temporary' amps when you know you're going to upgrade them anyway. not suggesting you've done it all wrong, but it's very common that people buy stuff so they can 'have it all' straight away, but only replace it. then what? you gonna sell the amps? and at what price?
so i think it's worth doing it right first time.
quoteQUOTE
By the way, What is the name of equipment to test the output of an amp?
you're referring to an oscilloscope. 
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/////ALPINE audison DYNAUDIO »»»morel polkaudio OPTIMA Stinger LIGHTNINGAUDIO
Issues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email]
ben_ra23
Sep 19 2002, 08:42 PM
Hey again!
Ok, When i had a car, And a system, I ran one fo my type R's, Only for a day, From the vnet 4150, It ran them fine, so theres no question of not enough power from the vnets
I didnt intend to buy two monoblocks, and as much as i say i will, Lets be ogical, who can go and throw $1500 at amps in a day! It will be a fair amount of time between now and then, But thats Future plans

I am intending to go into an SPL comp when i get a car and see what i can get....And ill let u know
I also beleive in "do it right the first time" But what i intend on doing, Is getting the two Digi blocks from alpine eventually, And using them for the subs, and then use one of the 4150's for my speakers, And with the other, Either give it to my gf......Or sell it, But i promised her when she gets her license ill help her with a system :S Stupid stupid me!

But yeah, When i get a car, ill let u know how it all goes, I used to have a couple of Kenwood 12" (the tornado ones) and when i comparte those two, to my ONE type r i had running, the alpine was a million times better! Clearer! and louder
But yeah.......I had my interview today, so should know within about 4-6 weeks, Even then, i aint rusing out to buy 2 Monoblocks straight away, i have other important things, Like a car, deck etc etc

The list goes on
I think we need another thread
Ben
PS: would 2Guage be Sufficient for each Monoblock? or could i split it into 2x4Guage runs for each amp from a distri block?
Or should i convert to one of those psycho's that uses 0Guage (hehehe)
Hehe cheers
Ben
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No Longer a 1976 RA23 18RG powered Celica!!!
2 Alpine Type R 12" SVC subs sitting in my room next to a couple of Clarion Vnet 4150's, Now all i need to do is decide on a car, then some speakers :(
ben_ra23
Sep 19 2002, 08:45 PM
COuld any decent audio store be able to test my amps, I wanna know exactly what they are puttin into my type r's.......
Ben
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No Longer a 1976 RA23 18RG powered Celica!!!
2 Alpine Type R 12" SVC subs sitting in my room next to a couple of Clarion Vnet 4150's, Now all i need to do is decide on a car, then some speakers :(
shiny_car
Sep 20 2002, 02:52 AM
i can totally see where you're coming from with your approach to the build-up of your system. i wasn't being 'personal' about why you did or didn't buy this or that.

you obviously have things planned out nicely.
quote:
Originally posted by ben_ra23:
COuld any decent audio store be able to test my amps, I wanna know exactly what they are puttin into my type r's.......
it's very 'academic' as to how much power your amps produce. it's how it sounds in the end. i expect a VNET4150 to pump out a
lot of power when bridged. my 'challenge' between a good monobloc and bridged multichannel is probaby better between something like the alpine MRD-M500 and the smaller bridged VNET4100. where the alpine is rated for 500WRMS and that VNET for 2x300WRMS. i would expect the alpine to sound better than the clarion despite the 'specs'. my point only being that where possible, you should buy an amp best suited for the application, and in this case a dedicated subamp to run subs.

as for testing an amp....an oscilloscope is not going to offer much realworld info either. for delivering power into an oscilloscope (say set as a 4ohm dummy load) is not very representative of a sub. subs/speakers change their impedence with frequency (the detailed physics of which is beyond me), so whilst you may measure X watts with the oscilloscope playing 40Hz, it will be different playing 40Hz through a sub. which only emphasises how
unreliable amp specs can be. however, you have to have 'some' form of specification as an indication of its performance; but one shouldn't see the 'watts' as the be all and end all of an amp. of course a 'watt' is a 'watt', so if two amps measure 500WRMS at 50Hz into 4ohm on an oscilloscope, sweet. but playing music through a subwoofer is a different ballgame; as soon as you ask an amp to do hard work, one may clearly be better than the other...maybe.
however, i'm not wishing to disillusion anyone. only suggest that
listening to an amp's performance is a much better indication of it's potential rather than reading the specs.

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/////ALPINE audison DYNAUDIO »»»morel polkaudio OPTIMA Stinger LIGHTNINGAUDIOIssues of harassment, conflict, vindictive allegations, or unfairness, personal or observed, should be reported to me via Private Messages or at [email="shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com"]shiny_car@caraudioaustralia.com[/email]
ben_ra23
Sep 20 2002, 03:09 AM
hehehe
Well i see what youre saying, beleive it or not, But i wouldnt mind a rough estimate at what they are putting out, I know what your saying about amp efficiency though, totally!
Reason i bought the 2 Vnets, a: good price, and b: decent power, Considering im still a student on a crapty wage, I figured they would do me fine, Then i found this darn caa site and well....... Doh! Hehehe JK mods
But i really wouldnt mind the 2 monoblocks at some stage......
I kinda am kicking myself, i know that for the price i paid for the 2 vnets, i could have bought one and a bit alpine blocks, But after i actually got the vnets i thought:
I started this system with the thought that im going to do a DECENT system with DECENT components, (i used to have a fairly budget $1400 system tht was ok, but not good enuff - u know what i mean ;)) And here i am shortcutting on the amps.........
Aaaah well, One day eh!
Cheers
Ben
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No Longer a 1976 RA23 18RG powered Celica!!!
2 Alpine Type R 12" SVC subs sitting in my room next to a couple of Clarion Vnet 4150's, Now all i need to do is decide on a car, then some speakers :(
T-Bro
Sep 20 2002, 05:14 PM
in my experience if your gonna shortcut, do it on the amps, there are far more important areas to spend your money on obtaining SQ than your amplifiers. speakers, their location, angling and mounting, and system tuning/equalisation, are the number one contributors to a fantastic sounding system

in my opinion it is misguided to spend big money on amplifiers while neglecting the configuration and tuning of the front stage. in my own case my front stage is worth several times the value of both my amplifiers in terms of components, materials and my labour - and this is where the gains are to be made

just my own approach!
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Custom SQ System
Source: Clarion DRX-9675z - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics FS50 Midrange - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM CapacitorSounding sweet and taking it to the street
ben_ra23
Sep 21 2002, 07:19 PM
Yeah, im taking ym time choosing my speakers..... And have ruled out all cheaper brands - not saying they arent any good or anything, But have decided that my speakers are going to be there for the longer term, Hopefully, And my subs -> the same.
I agree with the best thign to chortcut (If u have to) is the amps, I had my old system running from a cheapo system, and it wasnt the amp that let tings down in the SQ side or thing, it was more so the compnents i used......
Ben
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No Longer a 1976 RA23 18RG powered Celica!!!
2 Alpine Type R 12" SVC subs sitting in my room next to a couple of Clarion Vnet 4150's, Now all i need to do is decide on a car, then some speakers :(
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