guys

what's this dolby II 3.1 T-Bro's been talking about? i'm curious as to what it is in comparison to 5.1.

what processor and speaker requirements are there?



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[Edited 1 time by shiny_car on 28 September 2002 at 21:34]

I think you'll find that it's his way of saying 5.1 without rear speakers

AFAIK there is no actual 3.1 standard, but it's basically left, right, centre, sub.

Dolby pro Logic II is the newest standard, however I've only seen it on the 2002 top of the range Clarion decks, so it's probably safe to stay with Dolby Digital for now

------------------
Source : Clarion DXZ715
Drivers : F: Clarion SRS-1623 S: MTX 3000 12" (sealed 2cu/ft) R: d/c
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SQ/show system in progress.....
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I think t-bro's idea is to change his h/u and use his existing centre speaker, etc, to allow d/d without rears, as this drags the stage backwards, and, honestly, how many of us listen to music in the MIDDLE of the band?! not me hehehe
It should sound super sweet when he's done tho!
Aaron

------------------
Noise producer - Clarion DRX9675
Noise Increasers - MTX 500D - Pioneer GMX-944 - Bridged to the front stage
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------------------
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aaaaah (der!), so it's a new T-Bro Trademark format!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by ubugger:
I think t-bro's idea is to change his h/u and use his existing centre speaker, etc, to allow d/d without rears, as this drags the stage backwards, and, honestly, how many of us listen to music in the MIDDLE of the band?!

---

well i reckon that for dd wouldnt the use of rears be beneficial?.....i mean dd is encoded on the dvd with the 5.1 channels already, so why not use it

however for music i agree, but my idea would be to have some sorta selectable mode? ie 2.1 for music and then 5.1 for dd


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94 TR Magna Executive
AudisonPioneerRe/sponseClarionKenWoodJL Audio

hey guys

ok, lemme explain what i mean by 3.1 (which i installed in my car this weekend and am quite excited about).

this is a format invented by Dolby Laboratories called "Dolby Prologic II" and all it is, is a decoding format that lets you play regular stereo CD's (or video, or anything 2-channel stereo), but the decoder then splits up the stereo into left, center, right, rear left (surround), rear right (surround) and subwoofer (the point one). so in effect, dolby prologic II takes ANY stereo recording, and converts it into 5.1 (very similar to DVD 5.1). the beauty is that you can use *any* software, it doesn't have to be originally encoded for 5.1

now, being an SQ nut, i don't want wanky surround sounds behind me as it was not part of the artists original recording, i want an accurate sound stage laid out in front of me just as it was meant to be. so with DPL2, i simply disconnect the rear speakers, and am left with a genuine 3.1 system. in this way, my centre speaker ONLY gets center stage information, and the left only gets left information while the right obviously only gets right stage information. the effect is quite stunning and image seperation and placement is something else.

so thats what i mean by a 3.1 system there are very, very few cars in australia running DPL2 5.1 (let alone 3.1) but it will increase with time. you can go to www.dolby.com and click on the "surround in motion" link to see what DPL2 is like for the car. anyone coming to Final Battle is welcome to have an audition of my own vehicle to get a taste for its potential - i can switch instantly between 3.1, stereo, and time aligned stereo, so you can get a feel for the qualities of each format side-by-side.

any more questions feel free to ask

------------------
Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ-925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

[Edited 1 time by T-Bro on 30 September 2002 at 10:32]

quote:

---

Originally posted by T-Bro:
this is a format invented by Dolby Laboratories called "Dolby Prologic II" and all it is, is a decoding format that lets you play regular stereo CD's (or video, or anything 2-channel stereo), but the decoder then splits up the stereo into left, center, right, rear left (surround), rear right (surround) and subwoofer (the point one). so in effect, dolby prologic II takes ANY stereo recording, and converts it into 5.1 (very similar to DVD 5.1).

---

ah, i get it now. sounds neat and cool.

sitting in its box (waiting to be installed like half my stereo ), is a nifty alpine PXA-H510 dolby digital 5.1 processor. it doesn't have dolby prologic II from what i can gather, but does offer alpine's proprietory "bi-phantom capability" to feed the centre channel from stereo info. doesn't sound as schmick, but hopefully still effective.

so is it a step up from your previous setup?

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hey shiny,

that alpine processor looks to be an interesting addition to your setup!!! if it has the ability to feed only centre stage information to your centre speaker (ie, signals that appear in both left and right channels simultaneously) then the result would be very similar to prologic II. so it would be worth a fiddle if you like experimenting, assuming you're able to fit a decent centre speaker, which is the hard part .

yes, the new prologic II system is definitely a step up, in terms of the breadth and size of the sound stage, but also image placement, seperation and definition. every instrument and vocalist has their place on the dash, the soundstage is so detailed and 'alive'. it isn't perfect, and still suffers from many of the limitations of conventional 2-channel stereo, but the flexibility the DPL2 offers in overcoming car acoustics and setting up the front stage is very flexible.

however, 3.1 like 3-way front stages or fully-active networks, takes time to dial-in and fine tune, so this is my next step. DPL2 allows you to adjust the 'width' or mix of the center channel with the L/R drivers, in addition the the individual gain of each speaker. plus, i will be hooking up a 30-band EQT to the centre speaker, and also one to the subwoofer to assist 'blending'. so whenever i change one thing, it affects the others. its a matter of playing around with different combinations until the best compromise can be reached.

so yeah, 3.1 has real potential in the car, given the offset listening locations we deal with. i encourage you to hook up that alpine processor and sit a test speaker in your centre dash, and see what your ears think

------------------
Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ-925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

So are your rear speakers on switches? or just permanently disconnected now?

------------------

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rear speakers are permanently disconnected.

the rear outputs of my amplifier go to the centre channel speaker, so there is no more amplifier power left for the rears i guess if i wanted to i could use the onboard amp inside the headunit to run the rears with a switch inbetween each, just for demonstrating 5.1 surround in the car. in fact, if/when i ever go into multimedia, i may do this very thing because i can see potential for 5.1 surround with in-car movies and games.

but for music, GOTTA be 3.1 only

------------------
Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ-925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

what type of centre speaker are you using and recommend?

i'm wondering if something like a dynaudio midrange (either BP'd or HP'd) would be ideal. i suppose its treble would be lacking a little even if HP'd.

other options would be a morel supremo (which can go fairly 'low' for a tweet (eg: 1kHz)) which would offer good treble, or some form of (4") coax, maybe a morel integra.

i'm hoping the dyn midrange will be ideal. it would also be relatively cheap (can buy them singularly) and easy to fit.

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[Edited 1 time by shiny_car on 01 October 2002 at 12:36]

omg omg stop it guys please!! All these ideas!!! Argghhhhh! i though ti had my front stage decided, now where the hell am i gonna fit a centre speaker on a 1968 cortina??? ArghhhhH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Marc A
1968 Ford Cortina Mark 2 (Rare 2 Door Model)
1998 Suzuki Across

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i did some experimentation with centre speakers as its a highly obscure and 'unspoken' about thing so i had to learn and find out for myself. i did actual experiments with a home audio friend of mine, all writen down on photocopied stage maps with notes etc, so lemme relay what i learnt.

- first of all, using just a tweeter or tweeters as the centre driver does not cut it. all you hear is treble and ‘tsss’ in the centre stage, voices which are the most common centre stage information, along with percussion instrument etc, are mid-range, and are not covered by the tweeters and so the centre image is hollow and tinny. it will pull string instruments in, but thats about it. overall, it is unsatisfying and so easy to hear the speaker rather than the image.

- the best option is to use a midrange of similar tonality to your left/right channels. ie, the same brand, and as close to the same size as possible (this will generally mean a 4 or 5 inch). for me, as i use boston pro's 6 inch, i settled on a boston pro 5" simply because it sounds very similar and its the biggest i can fit in my centre dash. the trick is to be able to make a true infinite baffle arrangement (solid mounting board with no leaks from front to back of cone), and for this you need some airspace for the enclosure. very tricky in some cars, so you have to be willing to do some hardcore custom work.

- as for location and aiming of the centre speaker, i found that up on the dash facing up isn't that good, you hear the bounce straight off the windshield so its easy to localise, and its too far away from the kicks/doors which is where your L/R drivers are (but it could work with some tuning). i settled on an on-axis mount just below my headunit, and angled up towards the same level as the headrests (goodbye cup holders, coin tray and ciggy lighter socket!!!). in fact, if you drew an imaginary line through the dustcaps of my L/R speakers, it would cut through the cone of the centre speaker so all drivers are on the same 'plane' as each other.

- as for processing signal for the centre, this is the tricky part. first of all, it is VERY useful and almost essential to be able to equalise the centre speaker independent of the L/R speakers. what you will need to do (regardless of the format you choose) is to get the centre to 'blend' with the left/right drivers in terms of frequency response.

- as for the format you choose, there are really only three ways to ‘feed’ a centre speaker:
* give it summed mono (both left and right)
* just give it left OR right channel, depending on your seating location.
* use a dedicated multichannel processor, like dolby prologic II, dolby digital, DTS, THX, or a generic format like alpine or audiocontrol used to offer

i tried feeding just left-channel to the driver (to help counter act the right-side bias) and it helped. but as soon as you had only a left channel image play (like a singer at the left) you would get it from both centre and left speaker at the same time. so image tests with a test disc showed up major flaws, but with music it was kinda cool how the stage wasn't so biased anymore.

then i built a stereo -> mono converter to feed the centre summed mono. big improvement, less biased either way and really filled in the centre of the stage and provided a fuller, larger and more interesting listening experience. but again, tricky vocal images weren't produced accurately. but for music it was great and up until a week ago this was how i ran my system and it sound wonderful. it was just the image definition was a little too cramped and mushy, and it would fail a critical imaging test.

so then i went to Dolby Prologic II (the only companies offering this at the moment are clarion via its latest headunit, and alpine via its latest add-on processor), which divides image information specifically to the appropriate speaker. so now when there is a triange in the left of the stage, a vocalist in the centre, and a drummer at the right, they all pretty much appear that way on the dash. the soundscape is so alive and detailed and big. its only a marginal improvement from mono, and your average ‘boomboy’ will not appreciate it, but for the enthusiast audiophile who loves live music, you will enjoy the difference (and also the adjustability you have over the entire soundstage).

but let me finish with a warning for all who are getting excited. 3.1 does NOT sound better thean stereo. if anything, stereo is superior as there are less cones flapping around at the same time. but the reality is that our stereos go in our car where we are stuck in a corner and our speakers are buried away at our feet, so stereo with its pre-requisite 'sweet spot' in the midlde becomes very tough to achieve. this is why 3.1 (or similar multi-channel formats) is useful, because it helps us to get around the limitations of the cars cabin. it provides more flexibility and helps present the soundstage closer to what it would be if you were sitting in the middle. but 3.1 still suffers from listener-side bias, frequency selective steering and a bunch of other things we all fight against with our stereo 2-channel systems. and the danger is that if you dial in your centre speaker too much, it sounds like there is a speaker in the middle, if you dial it down too much, your centre image splits up and returns to the right-channel like before. so it is NOT perfect, but the compromise it provides is a more flexible compromise than stereo.

but if you set it up well, expect a rich sound stage all the way across the dash (including the 'black hole' in the centre of the dash left by stereo), and a generally more balanced, wider and fuller listening experience with an exciting and dynamic mix of vocal images that will have all your old CD's making you smile again

any more questions please ask, I could talk about 3.1 all day


------------------
Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ-925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

Your all freaks!

I think i am starting to get addicted to SQ

So this 3.1 allows you to more easily identify what area of the dash each instrument is coming from... if u understand what i mean

------------------

Team Mitsubishi Mirage
Now Enhanced With Bass

"Making CAA more popular than the TypeR badge!"

T-Bro, that sounds like some excellent advice, thanks.

quote:

---

Originally posted by T-Bro:
- the best option is to use a midrange of similar tonality to your left/right channels.

---

excellent. i eventually plan to run a 3-way front stage using dyn mids, so a 3rd dyn mid for the centre channel seems ideal.

quote:

---

- as for location and aiming of the centre speaker, i found that up on the dash facing up isn't that good

- as for processing signal for the centre, this is the tricky part.

---

hmm, up on the dash is the only practical position in my car. the dyn mids are sealed, which makes installation easier. the alpine processor has the benefit of dedicated centre channel output with 2-band parametric EQ and level (volume) adjustment. will be interesting to see how well it can blend.

oh well, i'm many months away from setting it up, but you've got me thinking and planning now.

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that dynaudio mid-range will be handy as it has its own enclosure so you wont have to build one as i did (my centre dash is stuffed full of dacron ) however my original advice regarding dashtop location remains. this will put the centre significantly off-axis rolling off response and creating reflections that will amplify higher frequencies - the result *may* be a thin and hollow centre image that is easily localised (at leat that is what my experiment found in my car). that, and the dash top will place the centre speaker significantly higher that your left/right speaker arrays, so it will be harder to trick you brain into having all three blend. im sure you will get a good result, but it may just be harder - thankfully your alpine centre processor has gain and EQ adjustment so it will make life easier when you have to tune it up i guess if its possible, experiment with minor angles and EQ'ing so that you can use the windscreen reflections to your advantage to spread the image out a little. you may lose some defintion, but it will melt into the soundscape more evenly.

remember, the danger for any centre-channel based system is that it is very easy for it to sound like there is a speaker in the middle, rather than the original vocal image in the recording.

but the beauty is that you can switch between centre channel and stereo at any time, so your not bound to one or the other

------------------
Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ-925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

So where can you get 3.1 material. as i would assume it is something which has to be encoded onto the cd? Or can the DPL2 decoder decode it and send it to the right speaker?

------------------

Waiting to be installed
Rockford Fosgate RFX9300
Rockford Fosgate BD1000.1
Stinger HPM Series Wiring

DPL2 works with *any* stereo recording so you can play CD's, tapes, FM radio, VHS movies, games etc, and the DPL2 decoder splits the stereo up into 5.1 channels. so its very versatile, and ensures you can use all your favourite software with the new system. its basically analogue 5.1 surround for everything turn off the rears and its 3.1 with very similar characterstics as a good stereo setup (ie, ideal for music). go to www.dolby.com for more info Prologic II in general, and also its application in the car.

------------------
Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ-925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

Mmmm, very interesting, I'm about to embark on such a project my self, but I'll also have a multimedia setup running through AUX input, the question I ask is, "Is my current headunit the only hardware I'd need to achieve a similar effect ?"



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Source Unit: Clarion DXZ925Front Stage: Pioneer TSW1635 Bass Bullets Sub Bass: 2 x JL12W3D2's Front Stage Amp: KACPS401T Sub Bass Amp: JL500.1

the headunit does all processing, so the only other thing you'll need apart from the centre speaker which is the tricky and most important part, is an amplifer to power the speaker (the DXZ925 does not provide speaker wires for a centre, only an RCA output) but this you would know.

good to hear someone else is using the multichannel potential of the new clarion source gotta say for the first time, i am actually toying with the idea of multimedia due to the potential offered by 5.1 surround for movies - but mostly im interested in 3.1 for music.

what kind of centre speaker/amp are you planning on using?

------------------
Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ-925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

[Edited 1 time by T-Bro on 03 October 2002 at 15:24]

Youve all got me sucked into this now!!!
I went and had a look at the DXZ925 today and was impressed to say the least.
T-Bro seeing youve gone and played around alot with centre speakers, I noticed Clarion produce a centre speaker and small amp that is to suit the H/U.
So my question is, is that speaker to small to reproduce the centre channel enough to be worthwhile??
Hope that makes sense.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slaz:
is that speaker to small to reproduce the centre channel enough to be worthwhile??

---

without knowing the product, i have a strong suspicion that it will be relatively weak compared with a decent midrange speaker as T-Bro himself is using.

given it is powered by a 20W 'max' little amp, and is diminutive in size, don't expect commanding SQ. if size counts, then sure, consider it.

like home theatre, the centre channel is critical to get right. so high power handling and good bandwidth (freq response range) are essential. and this is best achieved with a dedicated amp channel and quality speaker. T-Bro made the very good point that ideally the centre speaker should be of the same brand/series speaker as the L/R speakers to achieve similar tonal quality.

hope this helps.

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*Puts on SQ Forum Manager cap*
This is (of course) the kind of discussion that this forum was intended for AND IT IS ALL GOOD!!!

I am really looking forward to having a good listen to what T-Bro's experiments produce. I can see the SQ regulars flocking to the Magna at FB

Having said that, what has me totally intrigued is how this might compare to a d'Appolitto Array such as JL Audio use in their U.S. demo car (I have had off-line discussions a while ago with T-Bro about this).

Is anybody aware of a car in Australia using a d'Appolitto array?

For the unitiated to this concept, what happens here is you use basically 2 pairs of speakers and 4 channels for the front stage.
The 2 mid-woofers either side are paired up in the doors side by side with one tweeter immediately above/between them.
The other tweeter sits towards the centre of the dash aimed at the listener at exactly the same distance from the left ear (for a right-seated listener) as the door tweeter is to the right ear.
Of course the car does this for each side....

I DID have a pic of the door in the JL Golf with this but I can't find it (T-Bro?) but no pic of the dash. I believe JL uses some kind of rail around the centre console that the 2 tweeters are mounted to and "aimed" from.

It is supposed to work something like this:
The paired mid/woofers in the doors have the effect of stacking the mid-bass such that the image is raised, and the tweeter arrangement "fools" the ears into raising and filling the centre image and providing greater depth.
All of this is achieved acoustically with no electronic "management" or intervention.

Now the use of a centre tweeter kinda flies in the face of T-Bro's findings, but the installation is somewhat different.
Effectively it is simply two pairs of speakers (splits) that are used identically ie same x-overs, HPs etc., with an installation "twist".

Some comments I read on a U.S. site (Termpro from memory) suggest it is very effective.

Aint car stereo so much fun?

------------------
Mazda SP20 - NOT yellow,Dynamat Extreme and G Spot in front doors
HU - Alpine CDA-7876RB
Audison VRx 2.150EX front stage amp
JL Audio 500/1 Class D monoblock sub amp
Front Stage - Morel HCW 6.5 woofers, Morel MT2 tweeters, Morel MX2.2 x-overs.
Rear fill - stockies with power from HU (not that they get any)
Sub - Kicker S12L72 in 75 litre 30Hz slot-ported display box.
Stinger cables and connectors etc
TEAM AUDISON SQ WITH ATTITUDE

i was not aware of that concept before. thanks critter.

sounds interesting. probably not an easy setup to achieve, with major door mods for all those speakers and some dash work. so wouldn't suit me.

i'm gonna take the 'cheater' approach with the digital processor.

------------------
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Hey there guys, sorry for the delay in the reply, as for what center speaker combination I'll be running, it depends greatly on my front stage choice. I'm in the process of demoing a large variety of 3way setups, namely the usual suspects of Dyna, Focal, and Boston, however, as anyone who has tried to demo these speakers would find, its not that easy to find these speakers on any demo board in Sydney, let alone within a Car, I'm so frustrated that I'm actually considering driving down to Canberra, where I hear there is a store that stock all the above products on there demo board, and going at it from there, anyway to answer your question, Its going to be an extremely hard decision. As you can see by my sig, I have a pair of Pioneer Bassbullets at the moment, I was going to either use them as rear fill, or incorporate one of the midbasses as a center channel, with a fibreglass enclosure, however, doing all this with, 6.5 inch speaker obviously has its drawbacks, especially considering the quality of my center speaker in comparison to that of the rest of my front stage. Having said that though I find it hard to justify the purchase of a set of Dyna 5.5 inch splits merely for the use of a center channel, but in reality doing it any other way will definately be a compromise when it comes to my system construction, and thats one thing I didn't want to do, compromise. So I've got some tough decisions ahead, but anyway, T-Bro, I'd love to have a good listen to your car, it sounds like a revelation, and it takes someone with alot of ability, and incredible amount of lateral thinking potential to do what you've done, so well done ! Have you spoken to Clarion Australia about your little experiment? I can't imagine any better example out there that truelly highlights the benefits of this headunit, anyway, thats just a quick thought.


------------------
Source Unit: Clarion DXZ925Front Stage: Pioneer TSW1635 Bass Bullets Sub Bass: 2 x JL12W3D2's Front Stage Amp: KACPS401T Sub Bass Amp: JL500.1

[Edited 1 time by Galactic Soap on 07 October 2002 at 18:09]

A belated "welcome aboard, Galactic Soap"

If you can confirm that the ACT store has those on demo, then it is worth the trip IMO especially if you can check out one of them actually in a car as a reference point.
Mr_Bob HAD the 3 way Utopias going for about 4 hours.....

T-Bro will be on the CAA stand so I imagine there will be LOTS of peeps checking that out.....including me

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Mazda SP20 - NOT yellow,Dynamat Extreme and G Spot in front doors
HU - Alpine CDA-7876RB
Audison VRx 2.150EX front stage amp
JL Audio 500/1 Class D monoblock sub amp
Front Stage - Morel HCW 6.5 woofers, Morel MT2 tweeters, Morel MX2.2 x-overs.
Rear fill - stockies with power from HU (not that they get any)
Sub - Kicker S12L72 in 75 litre 30Hz slot-ported display box.
Stinger cables and connectors etc
TEAM AUDISON SQ WITH ATTITUDE

Thanks Critter, I've been browsing this site for a while, and its extremely informative, SQ is my passion, so you'll see me on here more and more often . I'll be doing some ringing as soon as I get to work, and get access to some free STD phonecalls, From there I'll confirm exactly what this particular store has on its demo boards. The name however eludes me at this point of time, its a relatively well known store in Canberra, located in Fyshwick, I'm sure all the Canberra guys know what I'm talking about.

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Source Unit: Clarion DXZ925Front Stage: Pioneer TSW1635 Bass Bullets Sub Bass: 2 x JL12W3D2's Front Stage Amp: KACPS401T Sub Bass Amp: JL500.1

You're talking about BDL in Fyshwick

They definitely have Dyns and Focal Utopias on the demo board. I cant remember seeing the Bostons on there though.

If you ask nicely (and the right salesman is there!) i'm sure they'll let you listen to a set of Dyns in one of their cars as well

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TEAM /////ALPINE
TEAM Digital-Is-A-Marketing-Gimic Member

"The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action."

hey slaz

while i have not heard it, the centre channel package offered by clarion (and also similar things from alpine and kenwood) would in my opinion not be ideal for centre channel duties, though it would certainly be an excellent choice over just a tweeter. these centre channel packages are designed primarily to be small and easy to mount in most cars without having to do heavy modifications and without taking up much room. so they are designed for practicality rather than performance. i guess like shiny touched on, a small driver like that will have difficulty producing the midrange and midbass that centre stage vocalists and percussion instruments are usually reproduced in.

i guess the risk is that with a dedicated 3.1 system, the problem is that the centre speaker does ALOT of work at creating the sound stage, so you want something musical that covers the spectrum. as my experiments showed me, small drivers like tweeters can 'stick out' of the sound stage and create thinness (especially when on-axis). the effect on a recording where a male vocalist opens solo in centre stage could be quite displeasing

that said, do remember that tweeters can be very useful as 'ambient satellites' when mounted at the centre or dash extremities

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Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

My 2c worth...
The THX system specifies that all satellites MUST be driven by the same amount of power and are of the identical make, to preserve the acoustic timbre/tonality...
D'appolito arrays are actually NOT just M-T-M setups. Ideally, the phase alignment of the mids relative to the tweeter is that of being in-phase. In other words, the speakers should "disappear" and you're left with a perfect point-source, where the tweeter seems to produce the full spectrum of sound.
Hence, in a car situation the D'App array is extremely difficult to achieve successfully given that
a) the environment of a car (too many reflections, etc)
b) the difficulty of on or off-axis phase alignement.
Consider that these are just the physics. Throw in electrical side of the equation and three-ways, let alone D'Appolito arrays would be extremely difficult to implement.
It's all a compromise...if you use a three-way front stage ala the JL demo the you get acceptable stage width and height but the trade off is phase response.
Going to a KISS two way, no additional "cheater" tweeters gives excellent phase response at the expense of stage height (but not necessarily so).
Which is best will depend on the car itself. Seeing as the majority of people aren't sensitive to phasing, a three way would represent a good compromise in achieving a reasonable sound stage.

hey galactic and welcome

if you can fit a 6.5 inch driver in the centre dash you're doing well! for my application a 5 inch was as big as i could go. but what ive found interesting is that the 5 inch boston pro centre works wonderfully with the 6 inch boston pro L/R drivers, in that the 5 inch has a richer and a little more detailed midrange which seems to complement the warm midbass of the L/R drivers. in effect, a quasi 3-way setup

when i first started with centre channels, i used a boston FS midrange which is not the same series as the pro series, but a great speaker nonetheless with bostons typical smooth and relatively neutral sound. but on its own, the FS didn't blend too well, so i found it very beneficial to equliase the centre such that it blended with the pro's on the left and right. this solved the problem and was quite nice to listen to (though this was with the centre running mono, before i went to dolby prologic II. so if you want to use that pioneer mid as a centre speaker, alongside maybe dyns or focals, it could work quite well so long as you can EQ the centre to blend well. otherwise, the result may be displeasing.

on the other hand, when i installed my current boston pro 5inch as the centre speaker (which matches the 6 inch pro's in the doors), i am finding that with NO equalisation at all, the centre speaker blends almost seamlessly with the L/R speakers, so my ears are starting to believe that there are benefits to using similar brand/series drivers in multichannel setups - but the home audio guys have known this all along

i haven't spoken to clarion at all about my car, as the only clarion components i use are the source unit and cd changer, but when its all settled down and dialed in, i am going to contact them to show them what's been achieved just for the sake of it. 3.1 / 5.1 systems are very very rare at the moment, only two factory cars in the world offer 5.1 (volvo and toyota in japan) and only two aftermarket companys offer prologic processors (clarion and alpine). i think it will always be a niche system format due to the difficulty and expense of installing a decent centre channel driver, and that OEM systems with factory centre speaker cutouts will be few and far between. what i fear we are going to see, as the processors become popular and people start to get used to 5.1 in the home, is alot of poorly executed centre speakers that will create a bad-rep for multichannel systems. its still early days so it will be interesting to see if this format takes off.

PS - research done back in the sixties when stereo was starting to become common for the car, recommended that the best format for the automobile was a 3-speaker setup (L/C/R) due to the offset listening locations in a car. it seems the research was ignored as almost all factory car stereos since the advent of stereo have been 2-channel (though rear speakers have become common, i believe, as an easier way to create the spatiality and breadth lacking in poor factory front stages). my guess would be because adding another speaker in the centre adds expense, manufacturing difficulty (a dash is tricker than a rear deck) and takes up space that could be used by other things. that, and your average consumer has no idea about sound quality, or a real appreciation for it, and so would be unwilling to justify the added expense. for information regarding this research, see the white papers published by Audiocontrol, if memory serves.

anyway my recommendation is to experiment with a test speaker before you build, to ensure you choose the right location and that the overall sound will be to your liking

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Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

regarding the D'App arrays, this is obviously pretty exotic stuff and i honestly dont know much about it. but my understanding is the dual-mids in each door next to each other (with a tweet) create a wider dispersion than just one mid, and that coupled with the secod tweeter pairs on the dash centre with the same PLD, create the illusion of centre stage information originating from the centre dash. as critter said, my tests showed centre mounted tweets on-axis to be poor at creating a convincing centre image (though it certainly helped), but i wasn't doing the D'App array so that may explain it. i _have_ experienced the phenomenon where your mid-bass/midrange (and even sub-bass) appears to originate from the tweeters so i for one can see potential of this array to trick the brain into 'seeing' a more centralised and balanced soundstage.

actually, i think that D'App array works on similar (though different) principles to ambient tweeters, in that properly spaced, a wider and higher soundstage is created with centre images fortified (where the ambient are centralling located).

ok, one of you guys has gotta test this just grab a spare set of tweets, hook em up, and put each tweet on the dash the exact same distance from the nearside listener as the original tweet (do for each side). then post the results!!!

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Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

Yeah...just make sure that the tweets are crossed off at a fairly high frequency (>8KHz), then volume-compensated. That's AFTER ensuring that you have matching tweeters (to the main pair) in the first place.
The main disadvantage of the M-T-M approach is that (depending on physical spacing) the driver outputs will interact with one another and cause cancellations. So what you gain in stage depth/width is offset by a jaggedy frequency response curve...
Which then brings us back to square one. Use a centre channel or KISS and go the two-way system.

Hi all, thanks for the advice T-bro/shiny but i cant justify spending the extra on a centre setup being another amp and fiding a driver to match my new Morels in quality.( Even though i have a spare set of Dotechs sitting here.)
Thats why i mentioned the Clarion centre speaker a cheap alternative to offer "some effect" as a centre speaker.
Money talks!

Sorry about the above rushed post, have a go at the grammar on me.

hey slaz,

using the centre speaker solutions offered by clarion, kenwood, alpine etc would certainly be better than using just a tweeter, and its small size would allow you to move it around for best effect. that, and no complex custom work is required but i suspect that the centre speaker packages aren't that cheap themselves, i think i priced one once at around the $500 mark

i recall a review in Incar Entertainment on the Alpine centre channel speaker/amp combination, was supposed to be pretty good even when used in a home theatre test, though obviously it didn't go as low or sound as rich and full as a mid-range.

i'd guess that some careful gain and EQ adjustment would help in getting such a speaker to blend well

if it's a go'er let us know how it sounds!

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Custom SQ System
Dolby Prologic II in 3.1

Source: Clarion DXZ925 w/ DPL2 Decoder - Front Stage: Boston Acoustics Pro 6.5's - Centre Channel: Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5LF - Ambient Satellites: Boston Acoustics 3/4" Kortec Tweeters - Processors: Audiocontrol EQT's - Subwoofers: Earthquake BR12's - Amplifiers: Kicker IX404's - Power: Stinger 1 Farad HPM Capacitor
Sounding sweet and taking it to the street

I heard T-bro's 3.1 system last meet and have to say it sounds awesome.

The centre is solid and in the middle of the car from both front seat positions. You can localise each instrument along the stage with pinpoint accuracy. The center speaker was not dominating at all and very transparent.

With him switching from normal stereo and 3.1 the difference in imaging was like night and day.

All in all I like it very much.... I haven't heard much SQ cars but out all all the cars I've listened to this is the first one where the centre is actually in the centre. I wish it were that easy to get the same thing with a normal stereo system in a car.

Awesome stuff!!

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SpLbOuNd