OneNonly
Nov 27 2002, 06:17 PM
Hi Guys,
I'm fairly new to this SQ arena - and was converted when I walked into a shop to buy some Pionner splits, and got pointed to the Focal/Dynaudio board.. A few days ago I got myself a set of 5 1/4" Utopia splits for my fronts (will eventually get round to installing them too much work!!) but I'd like to at least start planning what I want in the way of Subs..
90% of the music I'll have on is Punk - so I'll need a fairly punchy bass for the kick - but I would love to be able to wind it up and *feeel* the bass, just like at a live gig..
What are peoples suggestions for the best size of sub/combination of subs? The space for the box that I have available (while still leaving some boot room) is 1 foot high x 3 foot wide x 1-1.5 feet deep..
Thanks for your help!
Daniel
Zed
Nov 27 2002, 07:12 PM
Just to start things rolling... there's a number of factors involved when deciding on the most suitable sub for your setup. These include (in no particular order):
-Budget - ultimately this is what it will come down to, so let us know how much you're willing to spend.
-Sub amp - you want a good match mostly in terms of power output of amp cf power rating of sub, so have you got a sub amp already or do you have one in mind?
-Space available - you've got that covered already ~3 cubic feet is plenty of room for an SQ setup.
-Size of front speakers - you want to match the size of your sub with the size of your front speakers so that there is no gap in the frequency spectrum produced by your system , since you've got 5.25" speakers up front, I would recommend no larger than a 12" sub and personally I would probably go for 1 or 2 10" subs for the reason listed above.
-Enclosure type - ported or sealed, this is extremely important in any sub setup, however is mainly governed by the actual sub's specifications so is not something to be overly concerned with at this stage until you've actually picked out a few subs you like.
-car - size and shape of car will have an impact on what sub would be suitable, so what car do you have?
But going on the information you've already given and assuming you have a healthy budget (seeing as you bought Utopias for your front stage), here's a few subs you can check out - Focal Polykevlar and Utopia 11" subs, Boston Pro Series, Infinity Kappa or Kappa Perfect, Alpine Type R, DLS Magnesium series, Eclipse Aluminium series.
There's a host of others that I'm sure other people will suggest, as well as other factors to consider in sub choice. If you can provide a little more information then more specific suggestions can be given.
And welcome to CAA!
[ November 27, 2002, 17:14: Message edited by: Zed ]
OneNonly
Nov 27 2002, 07:31 PM
Righto!
QUOTE
-Budget - ultimately this is what it will come down to, so let us know how much you're willing to spend.
Healthy budget but not extreme. Ultimately prob up to about $2K for subs/amp.
QUOTE
Sub amp - you want a good match mostly in terms of power output of amp cf power rating of sub, so have you got a sub amp already or do you have one in mind?
Haven't got one already - heck, I haven't got a good amp for my splits already - I'll be relying heavily on the FS forum - and on group purchases I think. I've been reading may posts about these already but I'll make up my mind when I have worked out *what I want* to put in
QUOTE
I would recommend no larger than a 12" sub and personally I would probably go for 1 or 2 10" subs for the reason listed above.
Yes, I was thinking I need a smaller sub to get the higher end of the sub range - but I was also wondering would it be worth looking at a 15 (LPed to 60Hz?) and a 10(s) (LPed and HPed?), so I can get that really low bass I'm after.. (I know lots of the SQ audiophils wouldn't like it - but I guess it comes down to personal taste).
QUOTE
-car - size and shape of car will have an impact on what sub would be suitable, so what car do you have?
94 Camry Sedan.. Got a hell of a job to mount the front speakers coming up, and I still want to keep some boot space.. I'm looking at sticking the Sub Box directly behind the seats - the dimensions I gave should fit nicely there. I was thinking of porting through the parcel shelf or something so I can keep the seats up - but am open to suggestions..
Thanks for your time everyone
Dan
(Now heavily addicted.. Don't let my fiance meet any of the people who run this forum!!! They'll be dead )
[ November 27, 2002, 17:47: Message edited by: OneNonly ]
shiny_car
Nov 27 2002, 08:30 PM
i'm with zed, and i'd recommend 2x 10" subs. these will nicely match the 5.25" splits in terms of complimenting their frequency response.
12s would be sweet too, but also taking into consideration your taste in music, 10s would be my pick.
audition as many as you can to help decide. note that different subs will suit different design boxes (ie: sealed vs ported), some suit either, so this may be a factor for you.
another quality sub is the image dynamics IDQ series. not sure what's available up your way.
as for amps, you may want to match amps cosmetically. other people don't care.
some nice series of amps include:
*audison LRx
*u-dimension
*alpine, mtx
*phoenix gold tantrum, dls, signat, etc
you may wish to consider a 2-channel for the splits and a monobloc (1-channel) for the amps. monoblocs are typically designed as high current, gutsy amps specifically to drive subs; so will perform better than a bridged 2-channel.
i definitely don't like the idea of mixing sub sizes. would take a lot of tuning (probably means $$ for necessary components (eg: separate xover), and may even then not sound nice.
good luck
ultim8DTM5
Nov 27 2002, 08:50 PM
shiny im so suprised you didnt mention bass engines for feeling the bass!
:shocked:
shiny_car
Nov 27 2002, 11:26 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by ultim8DTM5:
shiny im so suprised you didnt mention bass engines for feeling the bass!
:shocked:
man, i forgot about those! i don't even know if alpine still offer them! (hasn't been advertised in catalogues for years)
i used to use them, and they were pretty neat.
but IMO, you can create the same effect (shaking subbass) with sufficient subs going loud enough.
Stone
Nov 28 2002, 12:52 AM
Jaycar sells them
Sonic Nirvana
Nov 28 2002, 01:07 AM
All those sub drivers in Zed's list are worth a look and would do the job, as would the Image Dynamics mentioned by the shiny_man.
The amps list is a good one too.
Given the height you mentioned (1 ft) and 5.25" fronts, 10s would be the way to go IMO. And if you wanna have some shakin' going on as well, then a pair.
With the budget you have, nice, tight, tuff bass can be expected. All good. And any combo that you lay your hands on of the above will make you a happy chappy, and the cosmetics of things can have some bearing. I reckon most likely a sealed enclosure(s) will be most suitable for what you want.
The "All one brand" option could be an Alpine MRD-M500 with twin 10" Type R's, make a schmick boot install and sound real nice.
Another combo I would like would be Audison LRx amp and pair of Image Dynamics IDQ10v.2 (very clean bass there).
My choice (just coz I personally dig them) JL Audio 500/1 and twin Kicker S10L7 dual 4's. Tuff and tight.
Don't usually "recommend what I got" (or similar) but.....
Good luck, tasty bass comin' your way any which way you go.
Maz
Nov 28 2002, 01:12 AM
I'd fire forward with that sort of music, rear loading tends to boost the 30hz bass but rolls off around 100hz so as the subs need to provide some mid bass rear loading wouldn't be best.
I would go with a single 12inch, a sub that suits a sealed box, and run it in the recommened box firing forward, the recomended box is usually slightly small so it would give improved mid bass response out of the 12inch making it punch like a 10inch.
Also if the setup still isn't loud enough you can get a second sub, and if you want boom or SPL then you can always rear load
Maz
Nov 28 2002, 01:13 AM
and yea get the bass shakers from jaycar they'll shake your seats. You can run them off the spare channels of your headunit as they are 4ohm
Galactic Soap
Nov 28 2002, 11:03 AM
As usual the boys have it spot on, so I guess I'll chime in with a few personal suggestions
Sub and amp combo ? With a budget of $2000.00 you'd strugle to got past the combo Critter suggested, quality components, and great clean bass.
As for your fronts and the process of installation, I've installed 6.5 inch drivers in Camry Doors Man, its not that hard. I don't know how big the baskets are on the Utopia's though, but what I did was mount splits on a baffle soround, and mounted behind the door, and hey presto you can wind your windows down !
Zed
Nov 28 2002, 11:23 AM
Ahh yes, how could I forget Image Dynamics and Critter's pet subs, the Kicker squares.
So many options to choose from - all of which will be very satisfying in the end no doubt. Just a couple more things to consider though.
Where do you plan on mounting the amps? If they're going to go under the front seats then obviously size becomes a factor as well as heat dissipation.
Do you plan any electrical system upgrades? eg battery, capacitor, alternator. I'm assuming probably not at this stage which means your stock alternator/battery combo will have to deal with the extra load. In this case, I'd be leaning towards getting a class D amp (eg Alpine MRD-500, JL Audio 500/1) over a class AB amp (eg Audison LRx 1.400) purely based on efficiency (~80% vs ~50%). Your stock electrical system will only be able to put out so many amps before it starts to fade and for good, solid bass you really need to keep the voltage up to the amps, especially the sub amp. So basically, a good class D amp will give you more power (watts) for current (amps) consumed.
A final thing, what does the rest of your system comprise of? or what do you plan to get? eg HU, front speaker amp and what sorta budget are you looking at those? No point in spending all your $$$ on a sub/amp combo if the rest of your system isn't on par with it (though the Focal Utopias have got the front stage covered nicely).
[ November 28, 2002, 09:25: Message edited by: Zed ]
OneNonly
Nov 28 2002, 01:25 PM
OK HU - prob not the top SQ unit but that's being covered with Pioneer AV system.. (Just going from the AVM-P8000 decoder to the P9000 - so I can run fibre from front to back).
The plans are to use a false floor in the boot with plenty of cooling for the Amps - and to sit right along side the AVM module..
Battery is already more than standard - but am looking for even more juice and may have a nice cheap option coming up soon..
Have a Stinger 1 farad cap ready to go - I'm was sick of my lights doing the dim trick with my old cheap system.. (Jaycar 4x100 + 10" Xplod + Pioneer 4way 6x9s)..
As for amp for Front - would be tempted to get a matching set of Amps for front & for sub - but will wait and see what I find..
One Q.. I saw that in the past some IDQ10 v1s were advertised on the FS forum - what do these go like? I mean, while I'm happy to spend a reasonable amount of money - the cheaper it is the quicker I can get it
Thanks again for your time guys, you're all amazing
Dan
au2
Nov 29 2002, 02:03 AM
Given the type of music you like and your budget, have you considered getting 8" drivers up front with a single 12" in the boot, instead of geting 2x10's ?
OneNonly
Nov 29 2002, 02:08 AM
No I hadn't, but I could
Pros/Cons? Where would a 8" fit? If I'm going to be making custom door pods anyway - are these the sort of thing that would fit in there somewhere? Or where would you fit them?
au2
Nov 29 2002, 02:34 AM
If you are willing to get custom door pods made anyway, then you could get them made so the 8's can be mounted in them as well. Apart from the cost of the 8's themselves, you also need an amp to power them, and crossovers to bandpass them (ie. you'd want to low pass them at something like ~350hz and high pass them above say 60hz...these are just example figures, actual numbers will vary depending on components).
Pro: if setup right they should provide much nicer/punchier mid-bass (esp for the kind of music you like) and the deep bass can still be provided by a larger sub in the boot.
Con: more expensive overall, and much harder to get right in terms of balancing components etc.
I'm sure other ppl who actually have 3 way setups will be able to give you their insights.
imho you should consider going and listening to some steroes with 3 way setups and playing the type of music you like (not on demo boards but in cars, caa meets are a great opportunity to do this).
jfyi only reason I suggested 8's up front is I have focal 5.25" polykevlars, and 2x10w3 subs, and mostly listen to rock/grunge. I find the 10's to be very punchy, but some songs the drums and bass guitar notes are above the cut off freq for the subs. The more quality 3 way systems I listen too (with 7" or 8" up front) the more I think I'd prefer 8's up front (long term) compared to 10's in the boot.
[ November 28, 2002, 12:36: Message edited by: au2 ]
OneNonly
Nov 29 2002, 02:38 AM
Great, thanks for your input..
There's another thread running on a similar topic - and I'll keep my eye on it..
In follow up though, I went through the Focal site seing if they had any 8"s and didn't manage to find anything around that size - what brands make something that would fill this gap that would sound nice with the Utopia 5.25"'s? If I was to do this I prob would prefer close to 8" than a 6.5" or similar..
Thanks guys
Maz
Nov 29 2002, 02:52 AM
look at the hertz 3 way crossovers, you could use them run your current 5.25inch driver and tweeter and run a new 8inch driver in the bass one.
I reccon that would sound very very nice. 90% of people would not even need a sub with 8's upfront but i guess we're the 10% that need our seat rumbled
BlackIce
Nov 28 2002, 03:28 PM
Just because I love being different I'll say this..
If you want bass you can feel get a nice 15". I spent 4 months looking for a nice 2nd hand 15" for my SQ system and it is the best money I ever spent on a sub for that system.
Many people say that a 15" is loose and lacks the punch of a 10" or even a 12", but I dont buy into that. Most who told me that (prior to getting the 15") either never owned a 15" or only ever heard a cheapie.. and it appears you have the budget to get a decent 15.
If you're considering 8"s up the front, IMO you can't go wrong .
With 6"s in the front and a 15" at the rear Iggy, Ramones & Vandals never sounded so good . Its also got the extra grit someone like Agnostic Front demands.
OneNonly
Nov 30 2002, 07:37 PM
2 Questions..
1. Brands that make a quality 8" driver - that would go nicely with these splits (5.25" Utopias)
2. Shops in the Parramatta and extended area which stock these brands (and Audison, U-Dimension, etc amps! I want to demo some of these babys )
Thanks guys..
[ November 30, 2002, 17:42: Message edited by: OneNonly ]
Sonic Nirvana
Dec 1 2002, 12:48 AM
Simple.
8" Morels. Talk to Phil at/is RM Audio.
OneNonly
Dec 2 2002, 03:38 PM
Thanks Critter..
Apparently very short supply of Morel equip round at the moment - awaiting new range to be launched in January..
In the mean time I just found this in the new range of Focal gear (well, updated PolyGlass).. PolyGlass 21 V2
http://www.focal.tm.fr/gb/car/polyglass/21v2.htm -- the Glass aren't the high end of the Focal range - but I must say their 6.5"s were bassy.. Maybe this 21cm (approx 8") sub would be a goer.. For those of you guys that understand all the numbers how do you think it'd go in a custom door pod??
How do you think it would compare to the Morel?
http://www.morelusa.com/renaissance/wr-8.htm
shiny_car
Dec 2 2002, 08:42 PM
most subs are really only designed to reproduce subbass. i honestly don't know how it'd go trying to play higher (ie: 60~500Hz range); probably not ideal. and subwoofers and (mid)woofers are quite different beasts.
IMO, you should stick to searching for dedicated (mid)woofers for your midbass. another one worth considering is the hertz space8. 'awesomely' thin in their construction, and allegedly perform very, very well, having won some awards. readily available; if not through hertz retailers, then email the CAA webstore (Web Audio Direct) for a quote despite them not being on the website. what's more, they have the CAA Manager's stamp of approval, as marc will be using them in his new install.
hertz spacecomp speakers there's also the dynaudio MW170 8" woofers, which have a MUCH larger basket, but also the audiophile pedigree (and $$ to match).
dynaudio drivers good luck
OneNonly
Dec 3 2002, 01:59 AM
You beauty shiny Knew I'd seen those Space Comp drivers somewhere - but couldnt' find them again
Will also check out the Dynaudio prices @ the local store, thanks..
[ December 03, 2002, 00:00: Message edited by: OneNonly ]
John L
Dec 3 2002, 12:13 PM
Firstly - thanks for the heads up on the Polyglass V2 range - I hadn't seen that before.
But I think that the 8" in that range wouldn't be too suited (as the others said) to a 'midbass driver' arrangement - as it looks like it is a dedecated subwoofer.
However - I would recommend them as your subs of choice - maybe the 27V (11") they're sweet - I run a 33V in my car and think it's pretty nice.
I think that at the minute - the idea drivers to look at are the Hertz 8"s that Shiny was talking about. They seem to be the 'weapon of choice' as far as 8" door speakers go - and are nice and thin - which would make installing a whole heap easier.
fraal_moo
Dec 7 2002, 10:37 PM
Hertz also make a Hi-energy (HSK series) 8" driver from memory.. I doubt it would have the SQ of the space-8 though!
OneNonly
Dec 8 2002, 12:36 AM
Thanks - managed to get my hands on some Space 8's already though
Now just too broke to get decent amps for a lil while
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