Ok, Question Time!
dunno if its been asked before, but im gonna ask it anyway

Would there be a significant increase in SQ going from a deck with a 1-bit DAC (Such as my current Pioneer 9350) to a deck with a 24-bit DAC (Such as some of the high end Clarion units, or the Nak CD700).
Not interested in the quality of the decks mentioned, so just assume that I have 2 identical head units, one with a 1-bit DAC and one with a 24-bit DAC, what differences would be noted with the 24bit DAC.

Just a question which has been puzzling me for a while.

Cheers
Beau.

More bits is not always better. A well made 1 bit DAC can be better than a 24 bit DAC. Really, once you get to the level you are talking about (basically, the 3k ish decks) no matter what they use its a safe bet its good...

It's not the fact that a 24bit DAC is better, arguably it is "better" as such, but, in reality, it's the fact that the decks with 24bit DAC are usually higher quaity decks, so, not only do they have 24bit DAC's, but the components around them are also of a very high quality, it's more the parts around it, that said, if you had a 1bit deck worth 2k, and a 24bit deck worth 1k, the 1bit should, in theory sound better, whether or not you can hear the difference is another issue
Personally, i like the sound of my 24bit clarion lol
Aaron

yeah, i'm with ubugger's opinion here.

i don't have a full understanding of how DACs work and the differences between all these sampling rates and data readings, etc.

but i figure comparing HUs based on DACs is like comparing cars based on engines. whilst the engine is a crucial component of a car, its overall performance will depend on so many other things as well.

i'm sure it has a lot to do with how you utilise the DAC as well. so whilst some people would argue the 1-bit is better/smoother/more natural, that may be the case in a more basic mainstream setup. however, you could take the multi-bit DAC and take things to a new level too.

also, despite everybody's 'ears' being different, which means our definition of 'better' will vary, any difference at the top is likely to be a different but not better.

from general observation, most top-line HUs and home CD players utilise variations of the multibit DACs (ie: 20/24-bit), typically from Burr Brown. including alpine (M-DAC), clarion, nakamichi, pioneer, etc

i'd like to hear some opinions from the DAC/electronics gurus.

This is up cyberpunky's alley for a reply on this one. Mr Dac himself.

Cyber ?

It isn't a matter of one being more precise than the other. A 24bit dac is not 24 times more accurate than a 1bit dac. They are actually totally different types of digital to analogue conversion circuits. A 24bit dac (or 16bit, or ..) uses an array of resistors in parallel to create an analogue signal from a series of bits (ie, on or off). All these resistors have different values (one for each quantization level, ie, 24 resistors for a 24bit DAC) and as you can imagine, when we're talking about 24 or 32bit DACs, the precision required in resistor tolerance makes constructing them difficult!

Thinking about a 1bit DAC in the same way as a 24etc bit DAC is a bit silly - because think about it - with 1bit, we only get on or off - which is useless when we're trying to recreate anything analogue.

A 1bit DAC actually does its thing without using any resistors. The way in which a 1bit DAC works is very complex - but if you've ever read about pulse width modulation you'll already a basic understanding of how it works (PWM is a method used to simulate an analogue voltage in the digital domain by changing the duty cycle of a single bit output)

So it really isn't a matter of one being better than the other - they're just different, and you won't hear any difference between the two methods (but of course you will hear a difference when comparing different levels of digital to analogue conversions, within reason. 8bit vs 24bit, for example.)

I still use my Alpine 7909 CD Tuner which was built in 1989. It uses twin 16bit DAC's. The 7909 is still regarded as one of the best sounding CD decks ever built. Over the years I have used myself and installed for customers a variety of top end CD decks including Alpine, Clarion, Denon, Nakamichi and Eclipse but have to say that my favorites for SQ are : Alpine 7909L, Clarion DRX9255 and Alpine CDA7990R. But the number of bits is only one of many factors that determine the SQ of a CD Head Unit.

There will be no difference. The audible differences in DACs do not exist today. Back when CD players first came out the differences were quite large but since then they have become inaudible. There are small measurable differences between DACs, however the largest differences measured are due to the output filtering and op amps used. These are of course separate to the DAC itself and are still do not make enough of a difference to be audible.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I was always under the impression that 24bit DACs were in some way superior to even excellent 1bit DACs. Thanx for clearing that up!

Beau

As said above, the method of quantisation is really only one part of the whole equation (pun intended).

When you listen to a good 1 bit deck and then compare that to a 24 bit deck, you are probably hearing differences in pre-amp stages, the DAC itself and even the quality of the power supply, etc.

Someone here mentioned that there are no differences nowadays.
Sheesh! How can we say that when there are so many variables.

In my system, when I ran my Nakamichi changer with 1 bit DAC built in and then added my Nakamichi 24 bit DAC to the system after disconnecting the 1 bit one, there were differences!

I know because I've actually tried it.

In the end, just pick the one that sounds bets to you. If it has a 1 bit DAC, that's cool. If it has a 24 bit DAC instead, that's cool too.

[ December 02, 2002, 16:02: Message edited by: Winno ]

there are general differences between single-bit and multi-bit formats, but i dont recall them myself. there are superb source units made in both formats, and NEITHER is superior to the other - they are just different.

that said, i have a fondness for multi-bit DAC's as the two 24-bit clarion units i have owned have been superb compared to the 1-bit kenwood i used to own, with my latest one (DXZ925) being sooooo warm, fluid and controlled

there is always a danger of being fixated on 'specs' and while the DAC is one of the most important parts of a source unit (defintely more important than the transport or line driver), it is only a part of the overall puzzle and is best evaluated with your ears.

I'd agree also that the multi bit DACs that I have sold and listened to all seemed to posess a more palpable, listenable sound more condusive to carrying the emotion of the music. I found that the single bit ones, whilst still very good, sounded more "processed" for want of a better term.

As I understand it...

The Red Book specification calls for an analogue signal to be represented in the digital domain by a string of binary numbers 16-bits long.

The 1-bit DAC referred to is all marketing. All CD players are restricted to decoding this 16-bit signal, unless you talk about HDCD/SACD/DVD-Audio.
The 1-bit bit bears reference to the way the DAC operates in decoding the signal. The gist of it is wether the DAC operates in serial or parallel decoding mode (to use a computer analogy).
The bottom line is that single bit decoders sound smooth and muti-bit decoders have a harder edge to them.
This terminology sprung from the early days of CD, when there was basically a Sony vs Philips rivalry (even though they collaborated on the CD std). The audio world was split between these two camps. Sony players utilised single bit decoding and Philips multibit (or is it vice versa? I forget).
Now, we have 24 bit decoders. The main advantage of this is that the 24 bit word yields a higher signal resolution. That's the theory anyway. In practice, most 24 bit DACs will sound more "open" than any 16 bit (single or multibit) DAC.
As an experiment...get a Sony Classical CD that has been "enhanced" by their super bitmap process. and try it in a "1 bit" then in a "24 bit" cd. The differences are there.