just had a long chat with a friend who does some composing and somehow we got into a discussion about how hi fi's colour the sound of the music.
Basically, he was saying that the tonal characteristics (tone control) and frequency response should be flat to achieve as close as possible reproduction of the sound recorded.
So I have a look at some of the spec's of the studio monitor's he sends me (Behringer is the brand if anyone is interested. KRK is another brand off the top of my head who apparently make good studio monitors).
The freq. response cruve is very linear indeed.
Then I have a look at the specs for the Dynaudio mw160 midbass 6" driver on the dynaudio web site (couldn't find a freq. response graph for their home audio gear, if anyone has one could you please pm me ).
Where the behringer monitor is very flat from 20hz all the way to 10khz (about 5khz on their lower models), the dyn is flat from 50+hz to 3khz.
Dynaudio speakers very generally speaking are said to not colour the music much (i tend to disagree a bit there) and are very revealing speakers. Revealing being able to hear everything that is recorded.
These studio monitors are about $1 to $2.5k for their modestly priced models.
I realise that its not good to just read the specs and go, ok this speaker is good and this speaker is not as good. It comes down to what you think sounds better.
Point of this post is not to bag dynaudio, in fact i love their speakers very much. I just used Dynaudio as a point of reference as I believe they are fairly (fairly, not extremely) neutral and revealing speakers.
So, my question is this, do HiFi's deliberately colour music? If so, why?
Shouldn't hifi be all about reproducing the sound intended by the sound engineer's that recorded the music? If thats the case, why don't we all buy studio monitors? They come with amps!
So why would people want to buy speakers which add so much to the music?
[ October 24, 2003, 01:35: Message edited by: ix ]
John L
Oct 24 2003, 11:38 AM
Carl,
While I can't by any means explain to you the physics of the sound reproduction - I think you are making an unfair comparison.
For example - I found a Behringer studio monitor - with an 8 3/4" woofer and a tweeter that has a flat response from 55Hz to 21kHz.
Now you are comparing to just a Dynaudio midbass. Wouldn't a fair comparison be the MW160 midbass teamed with say the MD100 or MD130 tweeter. Then you have a fair comparison because you are comparing a tweeter / woofer set against one another. You would find the response curve would then sustain it's 'flatness' a lot higher because the tweeter picks up the frequencies where the midbass starts rolling off.
You have to realise that Car Audio is somewhat a compromise. If we could all just mount properly tuned studio monitor boxes in the car - then I'm sure we wouldn't have a problem. However - there are the challenges of mounting position / arrangments in the car. The speaker manufacturers can't manufature a speaker to work in a specific enclosure (such as the boxes that studio monitors are in) - instead it has to perform in a number of environments - car doors, kick panels etc etc.
Anyways - hope that I've explained myself well enough for you guys to understand.
Should realise some interesting debate though.
mjjensen
Oct 24 2003, 01:10 PM
Also, it must be noted that every component in the signal chain "colours" or modifies the frequency spectrum of the original signal.
The head unit, cables+EMF and amp all servre to distort, delay and add noise to the time-domain signal (eg the CD), thus effecting the frequency response at the output. The signal at the speaker is therefore coloured, before taking into account the effect of you, your chair, the carpet and cabin on the overall frequency response - its an environment that cant really be modelled.
It therefore becomes a question of "degrees" of colouration or distortion - what dynaudio does is produce top quality speakers with as reasonable a response as possible. When such variables exist, its best to let your ears be the judge.
mj
Rockin
Oct 24 2003, 01:12 PM
My head hurts.
Slider
Oct 24 2003, 04:48 PM
You must also remember that with a car you get a certain amount of cabin gain at a given frequency. For example at 64hz I get +16.5db gain but at 74hz i get +12db of gain. Each car is different so that is something else that has to be taken into account when producing a speaker. I have no idea what the gain is like in the Khz tho.
QUOTE
Originally posted by Stoked:
Now you are comparing to just a Dynaudio midbass. Wouldn't a fair comparison be the MW160 midbass teamed with say the MD100 or MD130 tweeter. Then you have a fair comparison because you are comparing a tweeter / woofer set against one another. You would find the response curve would then sustain it's 'flatness' a lot higher because the tweeter picks up the frequencies where the midbass starts rolling off.
You have to realise that Car Audio is somewhat a compromise. If we could all just mount properly tuned studio monitor boxes in the car - then I'm sure we wouldn't have a problem. However - there are the challenges of mounting position / arrangments in the car. The speaker manufacturers can't manufature a speaker to work in a specific enclosure (such as the boxes that studio monitors are in) - instead it has to perform in a number of environments - car doors, kick panels etc etc.
Yep very true in both paragraphs, i tried looking for freq response graphs for a dynaudio home audio speaker to give it a fair comparison, but i couldn't find any.
Yes i did put Freq. response as the topic of this thread, but how come not all manufacturers try and go for a flat freq. response?
How come some go for lets say a brighter/harder edged sound, when in purist audio terms it should just reproduce what is there?
Sorry, I should also have mentioned I was hoping to compare the differences between a studio monitor vs a home audio bookshelf speaker, and not car audio drivers.
John, how do the behringer studio monitors sound compared to something like your home hi fi system?
John L
Oct 25 2003, 12:37 AM
OK - just 2 quick points here
QUOTE
How come some go for lets say a brighter/harder edged sound, when in purist audio terms it should just reproduce what is there?
Maybe because that's what the people want. It's the same as asking why people want a 'loudness' button or bass and treble controls - they all colour the sound as well - why do manufacturers want to include those on headunits?
All to do with people's tastes - remember if we all liked the same thing - there'd be no point having a forum like CAA because we'd all just buy 1 brand of speaker cos that's what sounded good to everyone...
QUOTE
John, how do the behringer studio monitors sound compared to something like your home hi fi system?
I'd say the Behringer monitors would shyte all over my home hifi - seeing as all my home system is - is a Sony mini-system. I don't listen to music at home - the stereo here is background noise - I just want it to sound alright.
hahaha
so for pure audiophiles, why don't they buy studio monitors then? someone who wants uncoloured sound that is...
Bassaholic
Oct 25 2003, 09:55 AM
First of all, I'd like to point out we are all assuming a few certain points - that the room/car etc will not be effecting the sound (which in reality it will be..), that the speakers and listener will be in optimum positions and that the amplifier driving the speakers is a true hi-fi amplfier.
I will say that some "hi-fi" (although I do not really think they are truely high fidelity if they colour the sound..) certainly deliberately colour the sound in some degree.
Also remember that "flat" is relative to your ear - it does not have to look perfectly ruler flat to sound flat..
I would also say that there are hi-fi speakers out there that are marketed towards home audio audiophiles that do indeed have very (relatively) flat frequency responses..
BUT what about the colouration that a imperfect room will add to the sound - what happens if the listener will not be in an optimum position etc etc - therefore, things like on and off axis response are important and compensations for room colouration - there are many compromises to be taken into account when designing a speaker (size, cost, asthetics etc etc are also issues) - many hifi speakers will be optimised differently
I also do intend to eventually buy serious REFERENCE studio monitors, but I also muck around with music production, so my decision is not based on a pure "what sounds best to my ear" approach.
Secondly, the source unit, cables, amplfier etc will of course contribute to the sound - nothing is perfect, however this is not a problem because all decent manufacturers know how to produce products that do not audibly colour the sound - engineers have known how to design amplifiers, cd players etc that do not audibly colour the sound for a very long time. Yes, there are amplfiers that do audibly colour the sound and it is very deliberate - I would not call these amplifiers high fidelity - these particular amplifers usually use tubes and have extremely low damping factors..
Hutch
Oct 25 2003, 11:39 AM
Studio monitors are exactly that, for monitoring in studios. Home speakers are for listening at home. Anyone who has heard high-end studio monitors in a typical living room versus a control room knows that they are not always the best sounding thing around. Typically they will be very detailed, often excessively so, with a dry, etched sound quality that can be quite fatiguing to listen to, ideal for highlighting problems in a recording but not ideal for relaxing at home at listening to your favourite CD. Out of interest, Dynaudio supply drive units to a company in the US the manufactures studio monitors called Dynaudio Acoustics,
www.dynaudioacoustics.com.
thanks for your generous replies hutch and bassaholic
So in short, studio monitors are designed to be used in accousticly perfectly designed rooms, whereas home audio speakers are designed to be used in much more forgiving environments?
Is dynaudio accoustics owned by dynaudio? I thought dynaudio stopped supplying drivers to the public and other manufacturers a while ago?
[ October 25, 2003, 11:44: Message edited by: ix ]
Hutch
Oct 25 2003, 04:35 PM
I'm not aware of the ownership of Dynaudio Acoustics. But you are correct in your statement that Dynaudio no longer supply OEM drivers to speaker manufacturers, with the obvious exception of Dynaudio Acoustics. Car audio drivers can be found in many speakers, especially the MD-330 Esotar tweeter.
so home audio manufacturers are using the car audio esotar with their enclosures and crossover networks?
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