Mr_Bob
Feb 13 2003, 10:51 AM
Just had a read through the rules,
i feel they may not be foolproof, but can't see where/why yet.
They are fair rules and understandable.
Obviously modelled around the dB Drag rules.
Q: Y was the permitted frequency range increased to 100Hz?
i don't have a problem with that, just curious.
Any other opinions?
[ February 14, 2003, 00:34: Message edited by: Marc Rushton ]
PuRpS
Feb 13 2003, 11:15 AM
prolly cuz the mini will hit at like 99hz or sum crazzy wakky ass **** like that
on a nother note 99hz isnt gunna do much me thinks 70hz is geting high but weird **** can happen
lancer guy
Feb 13 2003, 11:28 AM
I've just had a look at the rules and there's a couple of things in the street rules that seem a little unusual to me. It seems a little weird that we'll be able to run 2 15" subs in street 1-2, this may disadvantage people with exisiting street 1-2 cars with max 12" subs. Also I notice that there is a limit of 1 amp in street 1-2, hope no-one had started building a system with 2 amps like the dBdrag rules. I also can't see any restrictions on batteries, does this mean amount, size, type and location are all fair game?
The rules look good though and I look forward to competing (when I manage to get my car to the mainland).
Mr_Bob
Feb 13 2003, 11:47 AM
good point,
i liked the rollaboyz setup, where you could run 2 X 12's or 1 X 15 in the same class.
2 X 15's go up against 4 X 12's.
mmm unlimited batteries in streeet
i think andu's gunna love this
NUTTTR
Feb 13 2003, 12:56 PM
Hmmm, the rules sound okay, but, the dbdrag thing of multiple amps, i thought this was a rule we were going to adopt? Eh, it doesn't really matter to me, unless i go to the dark side, i'm just wondering
Aaron
Jetstream
Feb 13 2003, 01:09 PM
Could we have the dbdrag rule of two amps in -street 1=2
icebreaker
Feb 13 2003, 01:44 PM
the rules look pretty good.
lets see some constructive comments guys.
Mr_Bob
Feb 13 2003, 01:47 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Jetstream:
Could we have the dbdrag rule of two amps in -street 1=2
well there would be an issue with that if there is no limit to batteries.
imagine 2 zapco 4kw amps,
and 20 batteries...
2 BIG 15" drivers.
that would make street REALLY uncompetitive (and expensive)
as it is, you could do that with one zapco 4kw, or D3 and make 155-160 without any problems.
Marc
Feb 13 2003, 01:50 PM
All very valid points guys, more than happy to address them all in Revision 2 (at this rate, probably tonight).
Mr_Bob
Feb 14 2003, 02:05 AM
also, there is nothign to stop a hatchback owner from dropping the rear seats and building a box that fills the rear of the car.
nor is there a definition for "wall"
is it an enclosure that comes above the window line?
or a divider that sealss the rear of the car from the front?
even if wall was defined as "an enclosure that is higher than the rear windowline", you could still make a box in a hatch that goes from the back of the driver's seat right up to the hatch!...
there is also no rule excluding specially constructed amplifiers, or custom subs.
it'd be fun to have an electrical engineer build you a 100kW amp for 12V, since there's no battery limit,
Also, i think fire extinguishers should be mandatory, i've seen little ones from $20 at AutoOne (i think) i odn't think it's too much to ask.
besides, you can always borrow one from a mate (or work ) just for the event
[ February 13, 2003, 12:16: Message edited by: Mr_Bob ]
JohnA
Feb 14 2003, 02:10 AM
Hmm some issues i have even though i don't competere are as follows!!!!!
1: Street class Sound deadening....will there be a limit as to how much or how many layers
2: frequency range seems abit high...not knowing exactly how it all works what if someone was to throw 8 x 7" midbass drivers in the front doors and have them playing those frequencies will that not add to the score....ore do they have to disconnect the amps running the 7's????
3: Battery issues also...if you allow many batteries why not allow upgraded alternators???
Marc
Feb 14 2003, 02:18 AM
While they are all very valid points, how far do we go, are we going to produce a 20 page rule book similar to dB Drag Racing? It would be best to keep it as simplified as possible.
Keep them all coming though, and we will upgrade to Revision Two tonight.
I was under the impression we would not limit sound deadening in any class as how much affect does it really have for SPL?
The reason High-Output alternators were not permitted in Street, is as this is a fairly intensive modification that your general "newbie" SPL competitor would not be capable of. BUT, I though the simple upgrade to a Oddyysey or Optima battery is easy, and thought we should allow that. But you have a point, perhaps we should limit Street class to any battery but a limit of 1 ?
Mr_Bob
Feb 14 2003, 02:22 AM
yeah limit it to one battery designed for car use (i.e. no tractor batteries )
or a 1500CCA/100ah limit?
that will stop people using monster amps too...
also... no walls permitted in SS1-2?
other than being allowed to use 3 more amps, and alternators, this class will basically be the same at S1-2!
S1-2 rules specify no "high output alternators"
does that mean you can run 3 or 4 stock alternators?
are voltage regulators allowed?
[ February 13, 2003, 14:07: Message edited by: Mr_Bob ]
OK heres my opinion
could we change the classes names as CAAdB arn't Db Drag rules and can cause confusion due to differances of rules
Alot of my point are clafication of the rules, because that is why db drag rules are 20 pages long because it covers all points in detail which is needed as alot of grey areas exist and can cause problems with people pushing the rules. I enjoy finding what I can push in the rules . IMO a few area of CAAdB need to be clarified.
Street
QUOTE
Sound deadening is permitted
As above how much and where is it allowed. Say 2 payers of 1/8 mat or one layer of SD paint.
Street 1-2 I would allow 1 15" and 2 15"s in 3-4 IMO.
And a limit to Batteries in street, say one battery in stock location for 1-2 and one extra of equal or less size in the rear for 3-4
Number of amps is fine with me.
Super Street
QUOTE
Commercial vehicles / vans are ineligible for Super
Street Class.
Why, so my panel van which is a "commercial" vechcial is not alowed even tho it is clearly used as a personal vechicle. IMO this should be deleted.
QUOTE
Sound Deadening is permitted.
Again where and how much
QUOTE
No passenger compartment modifications forward of
the "B" pillar.
ok but later on QUOTE
With the exception of Street class, floor buildups are permitted,
provided no other rule or ADR is breached, and while seated, the position of
the entrants heels may not be located at a point that is higher than the
plane on which the entrant is seated.
and a stock cabin should be used in SS aswell not alowing floor build ups.
I am not a big fan of the amp limits in ss BUT I can see why and happy with such a limit
But no wall permitted in SS1-2 please make a seperate catogry for SS1-2 nw and combine the 2 classes at a event if numbers r limited.
extreme
QUOTE
drivable by an average sized adult.
What is a avg sized adult... how must he be seated in the vehicle etc etc etc, a very big grey area and some of us can goto town with this.
QUOTE
3. Entrants attempting to set a record are limited with any of the
above sources to a frequency bandwidth of between 20Hz to 100Hz.
It is the industry norm pretty much at 80hz so please can we keep it there.
additional
QUOTE
17. Dashboard height may not be raised.
Bottom of front window should be the referance esp in extreme.
QUOTE
20. Door jambs and door overall size may not be modified
Does this apply for extreme
And
voltage limits say 18v for SS and extreme and 15 for street are needed.
This is not a go at the rules I am only trying to help make better rules IMO.
[ February 13, 2003, 14:53: Message edited by: KraSE ]
DrEvil
Feb 13 2003, 04:52 PM
As McBob said about the fire extinguishers, i think that one should only have to be at the event... not in every car.
Commercial Sponsorship in S1-2 not allowed: good idea!
2x15's going in street is not a good idea... this is putting anyone with 10s/12s at a HUGE disadvantage. s1-2 should be 1.15 allowed and 2.15's should go into S3-4.
All vans automatically going into extreme i don't think is a good idea as these people will automatically be going up against huge scores and may only have a single 10 for example. However i have no idea how to make it fair for all
You need a rule about moving and removing rear seats for S and SS. From the rules (as McBob pointed out) a hatch could make an extended box, as could also a sedan completely remove rear seats and continue building box through to the cabin...
However very promising start.
Anthony.
Mr_Bob
Feb 13 2003, 05:16 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by MrEvil:
As McBob said about the fire extinguishers, i think that one should only have to be at the event... not in every car.
Sally, ( )
i think it's a good idea to promote safety.
what if the fire starts out while you're charging/testing the car, away from the lanes?
car burns, takes out 1/2 the car show.
insurance doesn't cover cars while they are at car shows either...
lotsa expensive burnt out cars... lotsa angry competitors. LOTS AND LOTS of cousins to deal with.
In the end i guess it's your own stupid fault if it happens.
Krase, i agree
i'm pretty sure floor buildups, dash mods etc contravene ADR's anyway. so allowing the mods is a bit silly, considering they won't be allowed anyway.
[ February 13, 2003, 16:19: Message edited by: Mr_Bob ]
Bassaholic
Feb 13 2003, 05:43 PM
as for the frequency range limit, aren't the low pass filters on the termlab mics only (ie 80hz or no low pass filter?) set at 80hz?
(? as I could be wrong..)
the new mics have a built in RTA on them aswell as the SPL mic if I remeber reading a post from wayne. if the freq limit is pre set or entered I have no idea
Marc
Feb 13 2003, 05:55 PM
Really good issues raised guys.
I knew there were flaws with the rules already, but I thought the final writing of them should include you guys, so that's why we are finishing them together.
Krase, I think you would be good as the spokesperon I spoke about in the other forum, would you be willing to do this? You have a pretty good understanding of other rules used throughout competition.
Marc
Feb 13 2003, 05:59 PM
Extreme class rules have been skipped over in the preliminary writing of these rules, primarily to get the rules together for AutoExpo.
To date, there are no extreme entrants as yet.
Extreme class rules need very detailed guidelines and a lot of time getting them right.
I am suggesting we stick to getting S and SS perfect first, then start a completely different attack together on Extreme.
Andu
Feb 13 2003, 06:51 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Mr_Bob:
good point,
i liked the rollaboyz setup, where you could run 2 X 12's or 1 X 15 in the same class.
2 X 15's go up against 4 X 12's.
mmm unlimited batteries in streeet
i think andu's gunna love this
Going on Summernats there were 13 people in Street 1-2 and 1 person in Street 3-4.... It doesn't seem like more people need to come into the class who have 15's.... and who has 4 x 15's driving around daily?. But if not we should make Street 1-2 fair... 2x15's vs 3x12's vs. 4x10's.
I don't think the smallest class in the format should be that large?
[ February 13, 2003, 16:56: Message edited by: Andu ]
bumassager
Feb 13 2003, 07:41 PM
OK I have a couple of questions. Lets say someone builds there system for a specific comp and it was going to be run in DB drag racing format. And then they find out its not its being run in CAADB format. This means they would then have to change their amps to run on one. And then for a DB drag racing comp put the other one back in. I dont know about anyone else but once I get my car setup i like to keep it that way ready for the next comp. I dont wanna look towards to see who is running it to work out which setup i have to have running. The same with boxes. Lets say I have a box and subs that is street 3-4 legal in db drag racing and is only legal in super street 1-2 in CAADB. Or something like that happens. I think we need to run the comps very similarly to db drag racing otherwise certain members wont come to the CAADB because their system will be in a different class due to the differing of rules. I cant see why we have to be so different. Sure give them different names and make it safer for all, but surely lets try and keep it as close to the globally recognised DB drag racing rules as possible. Not wanting to ruin all plans, but if we go too far away we will become alienated. Does anyone remember beta from sony? Sure its better than VHS but noone took to it because it wasnt as popular. Let me know what yew guys think.
DrEvil
Feb 13 2003, 08:23 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Mc_Bob:
quote:
Originally posted by DrEvil:
[b]As McBob said about the fire extinguishers, i think that one should only have to be at the event... not in every car.
i think it's a good idea to promote safety.
what if the fire starts out while you're charging/testing the car, away from the lanes?
car burns, takes out 1/2 the car show.
insurance doesn't cover cars while they are at car shows either...
lotsa expensive burnt out cars... lotsa angry competitors. LOTS AND LOTS of cousins to deal with.
In the end i guess it's your own stupid fault if it happens.[/b]
But u gotta think about how many people will choose not to compete because they don't wanna spend say $30 on a fire extinguisher.
If you don't have the numbers, the format will fail.
[ February 13, 2003, 18:28: Message edited by: DrEvil ]
Mr_Bob
Feb 13 2003, 09:13 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by bumassager:
OK I have a couple of questions. Lets say someone builds there system for a specific comp and it was going to be run in DB drag racing format. And then they find out its not its being run in CAADB format. This means they would then have to change their amps to run on one. And then for a DB drag racing comp put the other one back in. I dont know about anyone else but once I get my car setup i like to keep it that way ready for the next comp. I dont wanna look towards to see who is running it to work out which setup i have to have running. The same with boxes. Lets say I have a box and subs that is street 3-4 legal in db drag racing and is only legal in super street 1-2 in CAADB. Or something like that happens. I think we need to run the comps very similarly to db drag racing otherwise certain members wont come to the CAADB because their system will be in a different class due to the differing of rules. I cant see why we have to be so different. Sure give them different names and make it safer for all, but surely lets try and keep it as close to the globally recognised DB drag racing rules as possible. Not wanting to ruin all plans, but if we go too far away we will become alienated. Does anyone remember beta from sony? Sure its better than VHS but noone took to it because it wasnt as popular. Let me know what yew guys think.
i actually thought they were very similiar to dbdrag...
Vega
Feb 13 2003, 11:21 PM
In Street 1-2....I like the idea of one amp but
"quote: Seats / Trimming may not be removed."
I have sedan that does not have fold down rear seats, but may be removed with out the use of tools etc....it just pull's out....It came like this as factory....So i feel i am discrimitaed against....
[ February 13, 2003, 21:22: Message edited by: Vega_man ]
Anonymous
Feb 13 2003, 11:22 PM
There does seem to be a lot of issues to deal with in regards to finalizing these rules before AutoExpo. I think though that the discussion should try to stay on the topic of the RULES. The facts are that CAAdB is a go! CAAdB WILL be at AutoExpo. CAAdB WILL GROW. I don't think anyone here is really naive enough to think that CAAdB will come out the gates being the Best thing ever, but rather that it has the basis gorw into something GREAT. With this in mind let's try and stay focused on what rules clarifications/modifications we need to make in order to make this thing work, and work well...
Here are a few minor comments on Rev1 Rules, they are in point form so hopefully they will make some sort of sense:
CAAdB Rules Rev 1
------------------
-ADR Compliance applicable during the run? Does this mean that all seats etc must be in place during runs?
-Can false floors be built for SS Class even though they contravene ADR Compliance?
Street:
-------
- Battery limitations, number, size etc?
- Alternator number limit?
- No passenger comparment modifications? What about custom door pods etc?
Street 1-2
- Should we have 2x15" Subs?
SuperStreet:
------------
- ADR Rules question as above, regarding false floors and removal of seats?
- Battery limitations, Number, Size?
- Alternator limitations, Number, Size, Voltage Regulations?
- No modifications forward of B-Pillar? What about custom door pods etc?
SS 1-2
- Limit of 4 amplifiers eliminates the possibility of Quad coils unless only one sub is run
SS 3-4
- Limit of 8 amplifiers eliminates the possibility of Quad coils completely, as minimum needed is 12 amps
Classes Rules and Guidelines:
----------------------------
- What is the maximum Voltage Regulation
- 8" woofer size but what about 8" Mids? Will this bump them up? Also what about 6x9's in doors etc? Should there be a disconnection rule?
- Owner to be present with vehicle. What about vehicle registered in partners name but other partner listed as entrant?
QUOTE
Originally posted by Bones:
SS 1-2
- Limit of 4 amplifiers eliminates the possibility of Quad coils unless only one sub is run
SS 3-4
- Limit of 8 amplifiers eliminates the possibility of Quad coils completely, as minimum needed is 12 amps
why ?? you can series/parra coils with quads and can very useful to load a amp down below its rated loads so with the aid of impeadance rise your burping the amp where it makes max power..
I think limiting to amps to a point is good as do you want to see who can buy 16 amps win ss1-2 or 32 amps for ss3-4.
Marc
Feb 14 2003, 02:31 AM
OK, Revision 2 is released.
Some of these suggestions have been added / edited accordingly.
Will close this thread and start a new one on Revision 2 suggestions.
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