Marc
Mar 18 2003, 01:55 AM
RELEVANT TO STOCK CLASS ONLY:
The window line / enclosure height rule still seems to be causing some confusion.
I am proposing it be removed, and simply replaced with:
Speaker enclosure must not inhibit or impede the normal operation of the vehicle (see definition)
Speaker enclosure including woofers must not pass above 300 mm from the roof of the vehicle.
Your thoughts please
BlackIce
Mar 18 2003, 12:24 PM
Where's "the roof" measured from ?
Suggestions:
- Center dome lamp
- Front windscreen line
I'm guessing that hatch-backs dont count as "the roof".. which is important for very slopey hatches (Eg. CRX, Festiva, old school Celica)
Bodyjar
Mar 18 2003, 04:51 PM
Didnt all hatches come with parcel trays?
I would assume so, then in this case, why not make the rule, no part of the enclosure, be it woofers or amps, impede the natural movement of the parcel shelf (in a hatch/coupe) or the roof (sedans). ???
Because as BlackIce said, where do you measure the roof from? top of the window line maybe? but its quite confusing... At least with the parcel shelf rule, then its black and white...
Anonymous
Mar 18 2003, 05:51 PM
Bodyjar has a good point, just have to clarify that it be the factory issued parcel tray otherwise ppl will modify their trays to suit...
One other thing to consider adding in this class would be the placement of batteries... This is especially true for Stock B. There's nothing to prevent ppl from using their entire boot/hatch area for speaker enclosure then simply placing their batteries on the floo infront of the back seats... IMO this would not be a 'Stock' vehicle anymore...
[ March 18, 2003, 15:54: Message edited by: Scott Neill ]
icebreaker
Mar 18 2003, 06:01 PM
window line was pretty straight forward.
a piece of string from one window to another.
Then if it is below that, the same from front to back.
easy to do with a 4-5m piece of string and 2 people.
Marc
Mar 18 2003, 06:14 PM
Window Line was far from straight forward as discovered on the weekend.
Raises the issue of Station Wagons etc etc anyway.
I have made quite a number of changes to the rules, all of which will be posted up quite soon for your feedback.
In terms of the sponsorship issue. The current ruling will stand. Commercial Sponsorship is not permitted in STOCK class.
To set the record straight, the car in question was owned by a relation to Tony Doran (who was there with the car), the equipment used is/was not sold by Doran Pro Audio, and the equipment was purchased for their new car they have coming, decided to use it for the old car to support [CAAdB].
Oh and yes Andu, as Scott said, you were already explained the issue with seats, and that we would be looking at that after the event. There really was no need to stir it all up in the forums.
At the end of the day, the car in question fulfilled all requirements of the entered class, and won fair and square! It seems you have some competition again. Time to squeeze some more out of your system.
Bodyjar
Mar 18 2003, 06:15 PM
But where does the string go across? the front doors? the back doors?
And some cars arenet level, in that the front is lower than the back. In some cases, if this was to be done from the front windows, then half of their boot space would dissapear as the rear is higher than the front...
Tarwahh
Mar 18 2003, 06:58 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Marc Rushton:
In terms of the sponsorship issue. The current ruling will stand. Commercial Sponsorship is not permitted in STOCK class.
To set the record straight, the car in question was owned by a relation to Tony Doran (who was there with the car), the equipment used is/was not sold by Doran Pro Audio, and the equipment was purchased for their new car they have coming, decided to use it for the old car to support [CAAdB].
Oh and yes Andu, as Scott said, you were already explained the issue with seats, and that we would be looking at that after the event. There really was no need to stir it all up in the forums.
At the end of the day, the car in question fulfilled all requirements of the entered class, and won fair and square! It seems you have some competition again. Time to squeeze some more out of your system.
I find it interesting that doran sell L7's and crossfire amps.. and yet a relation of tony would go else where to buy their products.. but I will not start anything *shuts up*
hardon
Mar 18 2003, 07:27 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Marc Rushton:
[QB]RELEVANT TO STOCK CLASS ONLY:
Speaker enclosure must not inhibit or impede the normal operation of the vehicle (see definition)
Speaker enclosure including woofers must not pass above 300 mm from the roof of the vehicle.
QB]
*Sticky*
I think for every rule that is made there is always a car that will have to be changed or a new box built to suit the rules.
If the "parcel shelf" line is imposed it counts a few people out, but with the back seat rule as well even the stock cars are starting to get a bit thinned out (me thinks) - but I don't know a lot of the stock cars.
maybe the roof line could be counted as 300mm from the lowest point of the "fixed" portion of the roof - it cover hatch backs from the hinged tailgate thru to the windscreen, it covers station wagons, and sedans....
That's just my thoughts guys!!!
cya
Andu
Mar 18 2003, 07:32 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Marc Rushton:
Oh and yes Andu, as Scott said, you were already explained the issue with seats, and that we would be looking at that after the event. There really was no need to stir it all up in the forums.
At the end of the day, the car in question fulfilled all requirements of the entered class, and won fair and square! It seems you have some competition again. Time to squeeze some more out of your system.
Well firstly I wasn't trying to 'stir' anything, I thought I made that quite clear at the start of the other rulebook fix thread that was not my intention. And your right at the end of the day it may have fulfilled the requirement and all I can do is get louder for next time.
But I still need to find out how to get louder and that was the intention of the other thread. to enquire into how I should go about getting louder, building a box out onto my folded down seats would be a sure way to do it if there was no change to be made to the rules.
A number of competitors on the day brought it to my attention that their vehicles back seats were tested to make sure they were able to be folded up, so surely this was in the 'intention' of the rulebook and at the end of the day what the scrutineers say is what goes.
Tony Doran actually told me I was the person who inspired him to compete again because I kept pushing him to do something big and he did it and at the same time put everyone in their place, its loud people that make the rest of us strive to get louder, and without them the sport would not continue to grow.
But if I stirred anything with my single post enquirring about the rule change, I am truly sorry.
[ March 18, 2003, 17:35: Message edited by: Andu ]
Andu
Mar 18 2003, 07:39 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Scott Neill:
Bodyjar has a good point, just have to clarify that it be the factory issued parcel tray otherwise ppl will modify their trays to suit...
One other thing to consider adding in this class would be the placement of batteries... This is especially true for Stock B. There's nothing to prevent ppl from using their entire boot/hatch area for speaker enclosure then simply placing their batteries on the floo infront of the back seats... IMO this would not be a 'Stock' vehicle anymore...
In dB-Drag that is covered by 'normal operation of the vehicle'. to comply with the normal operation of the vehicle a passenger has to be able to sit in the back seat, thus the seat needs to be folded up, and thus the passenger needs to be able to put his feet on the floor without a battery or amps being in the way.
Maz
Mar 18 2003, 07:48 PM
With the window line rule, if i lower the car at the back and raise the front 3 inchs, that will give me fair bit of height increase in an excel. It would allow atleast 2 cubes extra box, which is heaps.
the 300mm should be from where the glass on the rear window reaches the top, not the front IMO
Bodyjar
Mar 18 2003, 08:43 PM
I dont think there should be a "measurement" ruling to say it has to be "this" much below the roof...
It's stock class, everything should be stock, therefore, parcel shelves should be able to be placed in its normal position, but taken out for comps. Basically, NOTHING in the car should be impeded by the audio system, so allowing cars to make boxes higher and "this" much below the roof isnt "Stock"...
Marc
Mar 18 2003, 10:30 PM
Very good points Bodyjar.
Anonymous
Mar 18 2003, 11:53 PM
Andu sorry it it looked like I jumped on you, just didn't want you thinking that we had forgotten or worse neglected to note down your concerns from the weekend. The whole key to the success of this thing is for everyone to point out the weak areas and for us as officials to address them appropriately... Sorry for the way I seem to have gone about it in this case I will try harder in the future to do this better...
As for the Stock class though both you and Bodyjar raise some very valid points and arguments for interpretations of the current rules... I too feel that this was always the intention but as we all know intention alone opens up a whole can of worms with the semantics of the wording. That's all it really comes down to in this case and on the day we did not have the 'argument' to back up our intention so we had to go with the rules as stated. It will take some time but I feel that the initial rulesbook was more than successful and had far fewer problems than could have been expected.
Thanks again for the input, keep it coming...
hardon
Mar 19 2003, 01:09 AM
I think it's left up to the main judge on the day at the event is there is any serious problems with wording - if it happens often, amend the rules to suit the majority, not the minority...
NUTTTR
Mar 19 2003, 01:42 AM
I'm with bodyjar, "stock" is exactly that. Stock. 300mm from the roof doesn't allow proper stock vision...... but yeah, if you look at a "fast back" designed car (hardon's) his sub box is prolly pretty close to 300mm from teh hinge on the hatch.... i reckon the ol' "must be stock and be able to have all stock items fitted" like, parcel shelf, seats, etc......
BlackIce
Mar 19 2003, 01:03 PM
Parcel shelf.. interesting idea. Here's something tho. Our enclosure fits under the parcel shelf if it fires up.. but when the cones start doing their thing they go past the "parcel shelf line". Does that mean our 22mm linear excursion subs move us out of the class ?
QUOTE
With the window line rule, if i lower the car at the back and raise the front 3 inchs, that will give me fair bit of height increase in an excel. It would allow atleast 2 cubes extra box, which is heaps.
Ermm, its a window line, not window single reference point at the front of the car. Weather the cars back sits 3" higher than stock or 3" lower than stock it doesn't change the relationship between window line and boot floor.
Marc
Mar 20 2003, 02:04 AM
The rules have been updated, so I will close this thread and open another for discussion.
Thanks for your feedback
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