Marc
Mar 20 2003, 02:06 AM
OK guys, from the experience with running the first event, and your feedback, many changes have been made to the rules.
I suggest your completely read the rules from start to finish, and make any comments in this thread.
[CAAdB] 2003 Rules & Guidelines
Andu
Mar 20 2003, 02:33 AM
looks good to me.
Team U.S. Amps
Mar 19 2003, 03:53 PM
The new rules and guidelines sounds great.
Just a quick question, the new pajero's can have the 3rd row folded flush into the floor. If I want to compete in the stock class, can I build the box from the 2nd row all the way to the back or does it have to be behind the 3rd row?
Cheers, Brian.
Bodyjar
Mar 19 2003, 07:46 PM
10.0
Says we're limited to one alternator with output more than 100amp... maybe a "no more than" should be in there somewhere
Otherwise it's all good baby!
Marc
Mar 19 2003, 08:14 PM
Oooops thanks for that
hardon
Mar 19 2003, 08:19 PM
Looking good, but for a few points:
- point 8.15 - For indoor events cars must have a full tank of fuel; I've had problems (probably most older cars) where if u can run the vehicle indoors and shut it off after the run the fuel expands reasonably drastically coz of the heat/exhaust and it can spill out the filler cap - my Celica has done it before and the Big Boys Toys (1999 Sydney) organisers freaked coz of the puddle of petrol on the floor....
- point 15.2 - re: Window line definition - Maybe change wording fron "lowest side" to "lowest point" or equivalent as "lowest side" is a bit vague - as in "What do they mean by 'side'???"
I'm very happy with the revised definitions and restrictions of enclosures for STOCK class, it should enable the average competitor with the average system to be competitive!!!!!
Good stuff Marc and Scott and crew, keep up the good work!!!!!!
cya,
Timmy
Marc
Mar 19 2003, 08:25 PM
Your first point regarding Fuel, this ruling comes from the top, this is the exhibition centre's ruling, and cannot be changed. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it I guess.
The second one relating to window line has been corrected, and uploaded, thanks
Anonymous
Mar 19 2003, 08:54 PM
Thanks Timmy but I did nothing LOL!!!
I'm just like you're going to be, a mic man!
We seem to have a gift for the gab...
New rules look good Marc!
hardon
Mar 19 2003, 09:22 PM
(in a non threatening, friendly manner, slightly sarcasticly)
We'll see what happens in the future Marc, I won't say I told you so!
Scott, (or "Enclosure artist formerly known as Bones") I want to see how you go first on the mic, then we'll talk!!!!
PER10D
Mar 20 2003, 12:34 AM
just a quick question regarding sub size, why is it not possible to run an 18" sub in stock class?
the way i see it, is that as long as you abide by the rest of the rules and your set up stay within the guidelines, why does it matter if you run an 18" sub in either the Stock A or Stock B class.
i see it COULD possibly be a bit of an advantage in the stock A class, so i understand that, but is it possible to allow it to be used in stock B at least??
i ask because i would be interested in using my 18" sub, but i only have a stock set up and it is used in my daily driver.
stock alternator, battery, stock every thing and within the guidelines set out.??
its not a huge issue but would still appreciate some feedback if possible.
thanx heapz
Marc
Mar 20 2003, 12:41 AM
The reason in short for this, is [CAAdB] STOCK class has been designed to serve as an entry level class for enthusiasts just getting into competition.
This, along with other guidelines is one way we can assure minimal cost for getting into competition but also to be competitive.
It has been a generally pretty accepted ruling, but if the majority think this rule should be raised to include 18" woofers, then it can be changed.
hardon
Mar 20 2003, 12:48 AM
Naah - I'd leave it Marc.
I'm still thinking of the Mr Joe Average install - if it can be fun and competitive for him, then CAA and the car audio community in general would be better for it!
cya
PER10D
Mar 20 2003, 12:59 AM
well i'm sure marc can vouch that i pass for your average joe, i was the guy with the red civic and crappy install and lost as hell at my first spl contest.
and as for the cost, i can assure you my set up would have to be one of the cheapest at the show, i'm just interested in seeing how high i can go with wot i have. i'm not about spending big money just to beat people... just a little fun and new expeirences.
i just found an 18" sub for a decent price second hand and was interested to see how it would go, but really didn't want to waste mine aswell as the judges etc time by entering in a modified class and seeing as the rest of my install was stock thought it could be classed as a stock intall/car.
but i'm easy, if the rest of the CAA community don't agree, i'm kool with that, i was just wondering why thats all...
no dramas
Bodyjar
Mar 20 2003, 04:02 PM
I think it should be allowed in Stock B. It poses no advantage, so I don't see why not...
ripped
Mar 20 2003, 04:25 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Bodyjar:
I think it should be allowed in Stock B. It poses no advantage, so I don't see why not...
it makes rules too complecated. leave em how they are. the only thing that you might want to think about is the single battery rule in stock B, maybe give em an extra battery in the boot since they can have double the amps
Bodyjar
Mar 20 2003, 04:58 PM
Complicated? how so? it's simple...
Small subs, you can have lots, big subs, you can't have many... It's not hard at all... it makes perfect sense, if you're letting say 4x10", 3x12", 2x15" it's logical that you let 1x18" in isnt it?
PER10D
Mar 20 2003, 07:00 PM
thats what i thought too bodyjar, it doesn't seem that complicated... but then again im not too informed on the entire issues involved with allowing it.
and as you said, it poses no real advantage at all, it just allows for a person with a stock set up to compete with other stock set-ups, instead of going up against modified car which have spent loads of cash on their installs.
basshead
Mar 20 2003, 07:39 PM
Read the updated rules front to back last night...
Quite a few comments from me - keep in mind that I am not attacking the rules - just trying to make some suggestions and/or avoid future complications...
Firstly a general suggestion: Use the word "shall" instead of underlining the word "should". I don't know if this is a standard, but it is what is used in AS3000 (electrical wiring systems Australian Standard). Using the word "should" just implies that we'd like it to be that way, but it doesn't absolutely have to be that way
Secondly, I don't recall seeing any mention of fusing or other means of protecting the system
Thirdly, contact details could be added to the end of the PDF document (although I guess if people really want to ask questions, they will go to the CAA URL shown on every page of the document ).
Now for the clauses:
7.2 - Would this include 6x9 speakers?
8.8 - "fully functional doors" - does this also include features of the door such as window winder, or just the door handles need to work?
8.5 - with reference to viewing area to front of vehicle - does this mean that perpex can replace glass?
6.4 / 6.5 - will you allow for the bonnet to be open for adjusting idle speed of the engine during the run?
8.12 - mention that the system voltage will be measured at the amplifier terminals, and that access should be made available to perform this test. (some cars on Sunday were not able to do this)
Mr_Bob
Mar 20 2003, 07:42 PM
i think 1 X 18" should be allowed in stock b,
somehow it'd be unfair if someone wanted to run something like an RE XXX 18" in stock A...
Marc
Mar 20 2003, 08:37 PM
Firstly a general suggestion: Use the word "shall" instead of underlining the word "should". I don't know if this is a standard, but it is what is used in AS3000 (electrical wiring systems Australian Standard). Using the word "should" just implies that we'd like it to be that way, but it doesn't absolutely have to be that way
That's because we would like it to be that way, and will not disqualify if not. It reads exactly as it's intended to be
Secondly, I don't recall seeing any mention of fusing or other means of protecting the system
Perhaps something that needs to be addresses, yes.
Thirdly, contact details could be added to the end of the PDF document (although I guess if people really want to ask questions, they will go to the CAA URL shown on every page of the document
My phone already rings off the hook, and as you said, the URL is all over the document.
7.2 - Would this include 6x9 speakers?
No, as they are not 8" in diametre or bigger.....yeah I know, surface area, but I think people know what we mean. Feedback, should we include that 6x9's or their amp MUST be disconnected? Total Recoil claims 139.? odd dB from a pair of their 6x9's
8.8 - "fully functional doors" - does this also include features of the door such as window winder, or just the door handles need to work?
As it reads, they must be fully operational.
8.5 - with reference to viewing area to front of vehicle - does this mean that perpex can replace glass?
No, because as the rules read for STOCK and MODIFIED classes "Road Registered Vehicle with limited SPL Maximising Modifications". Hmmm, yeah maybe an extra ruling in Additional Vehicle guidelines needs to be added to prevent windscreen modifications in all classes other than HARDCORE.
6.4 / 6.5 - will you allow for the bonnet to be open for adjusting idle speed of the engine during the run?
No, I know other formats allow this, we will not. It poses safety issues.
8.12 - mention that the system voltage will be measured at the amplifier terminals, and that access should be made available to perform this test. (some cars on Sunday were not able to do this)
Only one to my knowledge was unable to be tested at the amplifier, so we proceeded to measure it at the battery. Once we are well and truly up and running, and competitors are familiar with our rules, we will enforce this one more thouroughly.
Bodyjar
Mar 20 2003, 09:28 PM
Hmmmm... Since we can't open the hood, is there any other way of keeping the revs up?
Soundwerks
Mar 20 2003, 09:46 PM
Bodyjar - you could use a "remote idler control unit" (I cant remember what they are specifically called). Allows you to accurately control idle speed from outside the car.
Paul
Andu
Mar 20 2003, 10:33 PM
I think it just means no open hoods during your 30 second run, just like no open doors.
lol my convo with BlackIce on the weekend as he was preparing for his run.
me: dude, just leave your bonnet open, stop ur engine from overheating.... the other guys did.
BlackIce: yeh but that doesn't look as cool.
PER10D
Mar 20 2003, 10:40 PM
hey marc, have you had a chance to think bout allowing 1 x 18" sub in the modified B class??
wot does everyone else think?
ripped
Mar 20 2003, 11:45 PM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Bodyjar:
Hmmmm... Since we can't open the hood, is there any other way of keeping the revs up?
well for old cars like yours with the a throttle cable, then you can just wedge something between the cable and the throttle body (pig75 style with the barina) before the run and close the bonnet for the run.
plan B would just to use a brick on the accelerator pedal and for cars without throttle cables.
also, with respect to the 2,000rpm engine speed limit, how is this going to be enforced with cars that don't have a tacho?
hardon
Mar 21 2003, 12:01 AM
I simply screw up the idle screw which adjusts where the throttle sits when the engine idles - so rather than idle at 900 RPM it idles at 2000 RPM.
On Scotts excel (at a recent event) they had a piece of string off the throttle so it could be manually wound up by pulling the string tight and adjusting the throttle that way - it looked like it worked o.k.!
Marc
Mar 21 2003, 12:30 AM
I'm waiting on more opinions on the idea
Bodyjar
Mar 21 2003, 02:08 AM
Oh and yeah, what John said about tacho's... What about car's with no tacho?
NUTTTR
Mar 21 2003, 03:24 AM
Uh, yeah, the voltage measured at the amps....... this is gonna be literally impossible to do with my setup that i'm planning..... can i set it up to have extra wiring leading to a point in the boot that the "voltage" at the amp can be measured? My amps are gonna be under 16mm laminated glass... So i REALLY won't be able to access it....
basic124
Mar 21 2003, 04:23 AM
i'd also liek to knwo abotu cars with no tachos...
i htink 18's shoudl be allowed in modified b, but cna uinderstand why you dont want to...
oh and also, please clarify about the bonnet opening rule: is this jst during the 30 seconds or while the car is in the lanes at any given time? cause if its while you are in the lanes at any given time, this will mean that you coudl have ppl turnign up for events, putting their cable tie on the throttle first thing, then going in and out of the lanes at a constant 2000rpm all day, and this coudl cause too much screeching for event organisers liking...
15.1: within reason the vehicle should conform to any roadworthy or authority regulations
personally i dont like "within reason".. i dont know what this rule may be here for, but shoudlnt we encourage full safety etc etc?? this rule coudl be a good way to get defect stations waiting outside our events if the rules got into the wrong hands...
also - you may want to change the wording on 3.1
"up to FOUR vehicles go head to head in "lanes" while BOTH cars audio output..."
a substitute for both coudl be "all" or scrap everything after "lanes" and say something like "while the audio output of all cars in the "lanes" at that time is similtaneously measured." (you coudl possibly even get rid of simultaneously.. it has too many syllables )
and perhaps you coudl also specify that external head units/podiums must be run of the cars electrical system. i realise that you do check teh power at the amp terminals, but still, could be worth specifying...
and one last thing.. the only thing i saw in there that might prevent people from building out braced anti-flexing consoles from the dash is the "free movement or driver and passenger" rule... but that could be argued IMO.. for exampl.. if its an automatic car then it wont need constant access to the gear stick therefore free movement is maintained. i know its unlikely that this will come up, and i know your trying to keep the rules short so you may choose to leave it out, but still... could be worth consideration...
thats all the input i've got.. i'm kinda useless like that...
cheers
nick
CHIEF
Mar 21 2003, 10:53 AM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Marc Rushton:
[b]Secondly, I don't recall seeing any mention of fusing or other means of protecting the system
Perhaps something that needs to be addresses, yes.
[/b]
often, with spl cars, fusing is more of a hinderance than help and is not used, i cant see any problems here.
NUTTTR
Mar 21 2003, 11:41 AM
QUOTE
Originally posted by CHIEF:
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Rushton:
[b]
[b]Secondly, I don't recall seeing any mention of fusing or other means of protecting the system
Perhaps something that needs to be addresses, yes.
[/b]
Unless an amp blows and shorts out, starts smoking, could blow a sub, melt stuff, make it catch alight.....
BlackIce
Mar 21 2003, 04:26 PM
. Its true tho it doesnt look cool .
For the idle thing, we stuck a business card between the throttle plate & stop screw and kept folding it until the tacho read 2000RPM.
If someone exceeds 2000RPM the screaming engine & exhaust would be a dead give away
Mr_Bob
Mar 21 2003, 05:59 PM
QUOTE
15.1: within reason the vehicle should conform to any roadworthy or authority regulations
personally i dont like "within reason".. i dont know what this rule may be here for, but shoudlnt we encourage full safety etc etc?? this rule coudl be a good way to get defect stations waiting outside our events if the rules got into the wrong hands...
umm modified cars with walls AFAIK aren't roadworthy, i believe 15.1 applies to modified class too, IIRC
if this rule was enforced, we could potentially have competitors trying to get other people disqualified for broken headlights/taillights etc. could get nasty.
hardon
Mar 21 2003, 08:12 PM
Speaking of safety and fusing or lack of - There is a clause about fire extinguishers in cars and I would assume there is a fire extinguisher at the P.C. between the lanes - if there ever is a fire the issue would be sorted out pretty quickly.
pig75
Mar 21 2003, 09:26 PM
I don't like this wall definition. At the last comp I was at. About a third of the cars would have been classed as walls but as long as the Rules are enforced it will all be good.
ps Try explaining to a commodore wagon driver with 2 15's in prefab boxes that he has to compete against a walled car
Kramy
Mar 21 2003, 10:00 PM
well Pig75 from what i saw in Sydney the rules will be enforced.
Bodyjar
Mar 21 2003, 11:36 PM
Pig: He would be in Stock B, no walls in Stock class...
pig75
Mar 22 2003, 12:11 AM
QUOTE
Originally posted by Bodyjar:
Pig: He would be in Stock B, no walls in Stock class...
but his boxes were 25mm above the window line
BlackIce
Mar 22 2003, 09:48 AM
Well I for one am sick of going to smaller comps with very loose rules about walls and having to compete against monster enclosures that consume the entire boot/hatch and are 10cm under the roofline... but not "a wall" 'cos its not sealed around the edges or doesnt touch the roof.
IMO ignorance is not an excuse.. if you're competing you should know the rules.
Its not like you can show up at a drag strip and say "Oh wow, I didn't realise I wouldnt run in the all motor stock class 'cos I fitted an off-shelf turbo kit and threw in NOS for good measure" and they say "thats alright, we'll let you run in the all motor stock class mate. Its not your fault, you didnt know".
ripped
Mar 22 2003, 01:50 PM
the fact of the matter is, the SPL comps are about having fun.
IMO, if you are an average car audio 'hoon' and would like to enter a 'soundoff' then you wouldn't have the faintest idea about all these rules. this 'wall' rules is pretty tough. taking the 'dude' with the 2 15's that are 25mm too high for example. let him run in stock b, for the small comps. if he's just the average 'hoon' the chances are his system would not really be upto it with the high hitters anyway. now i'm not asking you people to delibrately 'cheat'... but making him run in modified/walled calsses would just make him turned off towards SPL comps all together.
i think for the preliminary rounds, rules should not be too strickly enforced because there are lots of newbies out there that just want to have fun. of course, for the caadb finals etc, then you can be tight and enforce all rules.
just my 5 cents.
hardon
Mar 23 2003, 01:25 PM
I say leave it up to the judges discression - it it becomes a problem, his/her word is final.
basshead
Mar 24 2003, 05:56 PM
Here's another one...
How about regarding the parcel shelves in a hatchback... Is it ok to have a custom-built box that is made up to the factory parcel-shelf line, and the top pf the box then becomes the new "parcel shelf" - of course it would be impossible to put the factory shelf back in place unless the entire box was removed because it's exactly the same height - the new "shelf" (top of the box) comes up to where the old shelf comes up to?
It may be a rule that'll apply to me when I build my new box for the Crossfire BMF 15
What are your opinions of this Marc?
[ March 24, 2003, 16:06: Message edited by: basshead ]
NUTTTR
Mar 24 2003, 09:43 PM
At the judges discrection, i think the 'wall' rule is a little tuff, like ripped said, i mean, this guy who wants to compete may have no idea about it, but i guess in subsequent comps he has no excuse, and should have a box lower than the window line or something... Dunno, just my 2.2c (inc gst)
Aaron
Buttons
Mar 24 2003, 11:21 PM
OK, due to my pathetic home computer I can't read the rules from here, so i'm working off memory and BlackIces *really* helpful input , but anyway. Can someone explain to me how the parcel shelf rule is fair? My parcel shelf is about 15cm below the window line and my windows are already sitting quite low.. if CAAbB enforces the rule I wont be able to move my box around at all.. and I'm not certain that the parcel shelf would stay on when the stereo was going either :/ or fit for that matter when the stero isn't going.. so whats the go and why was this rule brought in? and can it be modifed or ditched or something?
PER10D
Mar 25 2003, 12:18 AM
sorry to keep going with this 18 inch sub nonsense, but can i have a show of hands that agree or disagree with the idea of allowing a single 18" sub to run in the STOCK B class, as long as all the other components of the system fall within the rules and guidelines set out by CAA.
marc is there any way of starting a POLL to see the general opinions of the CAA community??
Marc
Mar 29 2003, 11:53 PM
18" has now been allowed in STOCK B.
Rules have had quite a few updates.
Uploading new rules very soon.
Marc
Apr 6 2003, 11:02 PM
Latest modified Rules being uploaded now.
Closing this thread and opening a new discussion.