Okay lads,

I've discussed this with Marc Rushton and MISTA-BISHI (the originator of this idea) and I've decided to run a five to six page feature story in the March issue of Auto Salon Magazine about CAA cars that have been built to achieve high SQ with a minimal budget. The aim is to see if this idea can kick on enough to eventually work itself into being a regular competition class in CAA SQ competitions.

What I'm aiming to achieve is to have three or more CAA member owned and built cars featured in the story, with phoitos and interviews with each owners as to how and why they built thiuer system, its cost, as well as a subjective audio evaluation by your's truly.

We've altered the rules to make things a bit more stream lined and well defined. What I'm proposing for the story will be rules based on the following, which have been done to keep costs down, make all systems as simplicstic and pure as possible, and stop any arguements about eligibility.

Rule 1: System cost for all main components (not including wiring or installation) must not exceed $1,000RRP.
Rule 2: Second hand components (defined as those that are no longer available new) will be valued at a fixed 50% of their RRP regardless of purchased value. All components still available to be costed at full RRP.
Rule 3: The system component total cannot exceed the following number of items:

1 x source unit (CD changer and head unit considered 1 unit)
1 x signal processor
1 x external amplifier
2 x pairs of full range speakers (coaxials or 2-way splits only)
1 x subwoofer up to 15-inches or 2 x subwoofers up to 10-inches in diameter



So there you guys have it. Now for the hard part, anyone who wants to be featured in the story will need to be in Sydney, and available with a finished car and system for the photoshoot by the end of January. I plan on auditioning all the cars in the first week of February and will post the actual time and place soon.

In the short term, go ahead an put you opinions forward about the above rules, as if there is strong enough arguement to alter any of them that is in the spirit of building a true budget system I alter them as need be.

Get posting then lads!

i like i like

except... isnt the one amp thing a bit of a kick in the teeth? and the sub limitations?

Before anyone else gets to up tight about the amplifier and woofer limitations let me explain why they are included. For the purposes of this story I would like to encourage people to use the simplest system design as possible. There is no reason not to use a single amplifier when multiple amplifer systems are far more costly for no real benefit.

With woofers the minimalistic idea also applies, as there is no benefit for cars with more woofers than I've listed as a maximum, as I believe the money should be better spent elsewhere.

Im not to sure about the 2nd hand components being valued at 50% rrp. This means you could have a $2000 system which is 2 or 3 years old, as opposed to a $1000 system new. And there isnt that much differnce in 2-3 years.

I think that makes sence???

hrm.. fair enough...

i still ilke this alot though

Damon,
Im not impressed by the rules you have made , yes i know this is a rough draft but hey im just passing judgement.

1) 1x External Amplifier??? Dude ive got two so im out there arent i?

Can we have a Formal Discussion as to finalizing all rules and discussing new ones etc etc.

As for the photoshoot, im in the middle of making new pods,new kicks and other custom interia parts so atm its in peices so now im working flat out to get it ready for the shoot. Thanks for the HUGE help with getting this thing off the ground too, and i hope we can get the 3 cars but i would be grinning like an idiot if we get more.

Big Thanks, Damon and Rushton

Later
Marc

While the 50% value for all old components isn't perfect, it is easy to monitor/police for fairness and is relatively simple to understand for everyone involved. There is no major benefit to buying new gear under this system, but I'd rather have it this way than have people arguing as to how much their second hand gear is truly worth. Keep it simple like this and there should be no arguements.

If this means most systems will use second hand gear then so be it! With things like CAA's own for sale forums and Ebay making lots of gear readily available it should work fine. I will probably cobble together a system for the story too, which will likely slot into my GTR.

how long do we have?

probably not enough for me... i have half a car to rebuild before i start buying anything else let alone installing it...

Hey Marc, you said you had a single Jaycar 5-channel amp. What else do you need?

BTW, these rules are currently up for debate, but I had to start somewhere right?

Yes damon your right we dont need to crawl before we can do three legged races..... :tony: <-- Random Stupid Quote For The Day.

But in the orginal Thread i posted in my list of componants

1xAlpine MRP-T130 Amp
1x Jaycar 5 Channel 500 Rms amp



Not to worry.

Later
Marc

Guys, the rules are set - GO FORTH AND MODIFY...

Good Luck, might actually buy this issue of ASM (usually flick through it at the News agent - sorry Damon, my partner isn't allowing me to by the non essentials anymore :? ) to see how it turns out. My opinion we should see some good systems for the money, use your head when it comes to install - remember its SQ you don't really need a big sub, and you don't really need fantastic rear fill - get it right up front and you should have a very good chance at some very good results.

I wanna take this challange, dammit....

lets see.

Sub - 1 x 10" = $100 (Jaycar, MTX, E/quake, Rockford..etc)
Amp - 1 of 4 channel amp (or 5 channel) = $250 (think an old series amp that was worth about $600 new (with built in cross overs).
HU - with fader, bass, treble, preouts = $300
Fronts - min. 6.5" splits = $300 (I wouldn't skimp here, try and seek out a set of older seriesKEF KAR's or MB Quarts, should fall nicely into this bracket)
Fill - $50 (something not too nasty, perhaps Coustic, run it of the HU, whack a cap on them to filter out the low stuff, and use the fader control on the HU to back the volume off).

Shop and install wisely. Just some ideas.

XHELL has the idea!

And Marc - come on man, who needs seven channels of amplification in a sub-$1000 SQ system - I mean honestly?

Well damon im using 6 of them dude this is how my set up goes

Jaycar amp runs Subs and Mids with the signal for the mids comin thru the EQ

Alpine amp runs the tweeters

Thats it dude nothing special, but i stand by it cause IMO i think it sounds good, it does the job for me. Im Happy

Later
Marc

Many people might prefer to use two smaller amps so perhaps a power limit of say 500W RMS instead.

What are the rules regarding the use of stock equiptment and deadening??

A couple of issues of a system I did is that the amp is a DIY job and the sub is only available in US and just using exchange rate may not be fair for others.

Hey Damon, you have my respect for actually going ahead with this..

Anyway, I don't really see why the subwoofers/amps should be limited, since the main limitation is meant to be the budget. But obvously many example systems will only have one subwoofer/amp simply because it is overkill for a SQ application and that money may be better spent elsewhere..
I do like the 50% rule, simply because it removes the grey area when dealing with second hand values.....

ok looks like im dusting off the mini for the challenge....
(and i mean litterally)

exodus reprezent! haha


http://worldwidewes.net/mini/mini1.JPG/

Can you get it to the photoshoot but wes thats the main thing show we have some numbers and try and get this thing off the ground

TEAM YULLEH 4 LIFE NIGGER, REPREZENT FO SHIZZLE MAH NIZZLER FO DIZZLE!!

Later
Marc

i thought u were being to inteligent for to long, something had to give

How about a maximum of 4 channels of amplification, no matter how that's arrived at?

Like I care: I'm in Far North Qld.

Sounds very interesting i'm pretty keen to step up and have a shot... someone wanna find out the rrp on a ppi arts series a4? can't remember the model number but it's a 4 channel 50wrms amp... if it's to high then i will be lookin into a 2nd hand 4 channel

I tend to agree that the amplifier restriction should be raised to two.

Most budget systems (=99%) would consist of a small two channel for front (or rear in newbies case:)) and a small two channel for sub.

Right or wrong, in most peoples inexperience, they buy an amplifier for the speakers, then add a subwoofer and amp later.

I think this with two amps it is more realistic, providing they still come in at $1000

That way, the smart people in this comp, will go the single amp method and have more money for other components.

Just my 0.5c

Mmm, sounds interesting. But i can only be in Syd for one day, the 31st of Jan. If things are rolling by then i can come back for another day or two in early Feb (9-10ish).

But ill definately be in. Possibly with Shieldsy's help.

Also the other thing is that if you do get out to me on the 31st with a camera the car will be freshly detailed post conversion. So you could do some shots of the new engine and stuff too if you wanted.

Please provide more detail, very interested so that ACT/SQ can really do some damage.

SoundQuality all the way.

EDIT: I assume Amps are allowed to still be mounted in the car but not powered. Cos that woudl be a real pain if i had to remove my day to day amps to enter.

allso i think you should scrap the one amplier limit rule mainly becos the biggest deciding factor here is money so what ever you can get into your car and to sound good for less then 1000 bucks good on ya!

I agree with Marc. If you can get 2 amps in the budget, who cares or even better, you could just make it a max of 4 ch unbridged to same effect. This way as Marc states those who have gone the upgrade route, by adding a second 2 ch amp when they add sub or whatever arent discrimanted against.

Anyway I guess the 50% rule is fair as it can be, although seems kinda arbitrary. A lot of my equipment is second hand, so Id say start looking at second hand stuff as I think it would give you a serious edge when trying to get best results for a given budget. I did it just because I didnt have money to splash around and opportunities arose.
good luck with it ppl but personally it seems like a waste of energy. Good idea for an article but thats been done countless times. I guess if there is demand for such a form of competition then why not, but sounds like its more about filling mag pages than any real need . Whats next, best sounding factory system comps ?

peace
Cyberpunky

Gee, thanks for the support there dude, I'm all teary eyed...

Who let cyberpunky out of his section?
Talk about "seen it before"
haha the irony makes it amusing on so many levels

I don't see at all why the numbers of any woofers/amps or channels should be limited...

If someone can budget 5 amps and 10 woofers into $1000 then good on em...

It's meant to be the budget that is the limiting factor not the way in which they achieve SQ.

The "cost" of items factor is probably the hardest thing to get around, which is why i suggested the CAA market value in the first thread...

What you said was that if an item is no longer available then it is valued at 50% of new cost... What if you bought an amp 2nd hand but it is still available new, such as a jaycar 2.150?

Also 2 other factors regarding price... Take for example my JL15W0, u can get them on the street for $250 but rrp is still something like $300-$350 last time i checked... So what price is it valued at?

Many of my items i purchased new but are no longer available. Are they valued at the new price or at the 50% of rrp price?

These are the reasons in which i suggested the caa market value in the first thread, as it eliminates all these grey areas. Everything would be valued at 2nd hand price as to what it could be purchased for by the average joe as you are meant to be advertising to your readers that they too can build a system for $1000 or under.

Many amps etc can be bought at bargain prices second hand, so why should you value these at a higher than market price? As well as a good story, i am sure you also want to help kick off the sq scene and by informing your readers of some amps that can be bought at bargain prices 2nd hand this defeats the purpose if they end up being valued at 50% of rrp.

Of course working out market values is another hard area, however if a list is to be made of the gear that each competitor will be using, i will put forward my services to help research market values across CAA forums etc to help find out true prices.

P.S: I propose a Sunday for this to happen as then i can make it along to spectate or maybe even compete if i can work out how to get my system under $1000 That all depends on the final pricing structure...

Cheers,
Anthony.

Dre that is a great idea, and im sure if u can put forward a list, and send it to either me or Damon, it would be greatly apprieciated not sure if Damon will include this in the Final rules but thanks none the less.



Yeah ill second that, a weekend is good but i do need notice as i live 2 and a half hours from sydney and i need to clear time cause now im working on weekends with my old man.

Cheers
Marc.

Ahhh c'mon Bruce, that's not the enthusiastic Cyber I know! It's all in good fun.

It's all about encouraging people to enter Sound Quality competition who normally wouldn't.

I know without a specific category or reason like this that if the total value of my system was under $1000 that I woulnd't dream of entering SQ comps through fear of being (damn I can never spell this word.... here goes) anhialated (lol).

What has anyone got to lose?

I believe this would make a damn interesting article also, and I haven't see a SQ Competition for under $1000 article since........ ummm never.

Yeah. Honestly i havnt entered any SQ comps because i know that i cannot compete with the big boys who spend 8k+ on a SQ system full with AV audio. And especially when it seems that the determining factor in the marking of an SQ car is the install quality and how much money one can pour into it.

I noticed that for the Summernats SQ entry that the most points were allocated to how it looked. Even so far as AV being marked higher than the actual quality of the system.

This 1k contest, even if i have to downgrade my system to do it will be great.

I just wanna know why there are amp/sub restrictions?!?!

Isnt the under $1000 enough? they should be allowed whatever they want! That will basically restrict them to sane level of budget setups anyways.

Really think that needs tobe thought out...

MistaB - What i meant is that if entrants submit me a list of items they are using then I will try and find out the "CAA Value" of them... Unless they want to go by RRP.

We still need to wait on clarification of the rules from Damon first though...

Because there is no point in putting a price of 50% of rrp on a 10year old amp that was originally $2000 but can now be picked up for $200 when one objective of this article would probably be to introduce newbies into the SQ arena and after them reading the article they can think "oh maybe i can get that amp for $200 even if it is a few years old", but if the amp was valued at say $1000 (being 50% of original rrp) then the reader would figure that it is out of there league.

It isn't about just running cheap brand new gear, but also finding the mid to higher end old gear that can now be found all over the place for bargain prices. Some items depreciate a lot quicker than others, so it is worthwhile bringing this to the readers attention.

Anyways thats about my $1.50 worth of 2c's so far

This is how the 2 prices structures vary... Based on my system... Not that it was intended as an SQ system And please note: I probably do not intend on entering the comp... I am only discussing this for fairness stakes...

DrEvil structure based on approx 2nd hand values on CAA:
JL15W0 - $200
Jaycar 2.150$200
Sony H/U $150
Jaycar Kevlars $150?
Audison Srx2 $250
=$950

The Damon method from what i can gather (as waiting on clarification as from what i gather it doesn't matter if item was bought new or 2nd hand, but i may be wrong):
JL15W0 - $300 or so (as item is still for sale new)
Jaycar 2.150$335 (as item is still for sale new)
Sony H/U $165 (1/2 of rrp)
Jaycar Kevlars $200 (as item is still for sale)
Audison Srx2 $300 (as item is still for sale)
=$1300

I bought everything but the 2.150 new and paid $250 for the amp almost 2 years ago. So the prices i paid would be around the $1300 mark. However if you distinguish between someone who has bought new and someone who has bought 2nd hand (as far as the contest goes) then 2 people could have identical systems and one of them not be allowed to enter due to price restrictions.

Anyways, waiting on word from Mr ASM!

this is a very great idea damon, pumping more interest into SQ in general showing it can be done on a budjet.

From one thing i have known many people out there think you need to spend big to get quality where as to me a good system falles on that $1000 price range.

Although my car doesnt fall in that price range, im 11!100% in full favour of this artical and am willing to help you out how ever you need.


My car is designed on the lowest budget and simplicity as an SQ car and always has been, although, no budget was set out, but i fell soon enough my car will be compeditive in CAASQ Street and Show classes......as soon as i get off my ass and finish the install.

the question of "how long do we have" still has not been answered... i'm tryign to talk one of my mates into doing this and a rough time frame would be nice...

Yes Damon lemme know a deadline dude we can organise a day for this to happen, make a cool little get together.

Later
Marc.

PS Thanks to ALL people showing positive support towards this idea and to the other thread "Challenge To End All Challenges".

i think a big reason i'm in support of it is that its a magazine run item, and it has no manufacturer backing, and its not as though manufacturers are providing the equipment for it in any way shape or form, its a matter of "we'll audition THAT setup, and worry about what equipment he's running later" as opposed to "we'll see how THIS amp works in THAT setup"... if you get me..

the budget aspect of it makes it very exciting i must point out... its a competition level that ANYONE can aim for...

Exactly!

Didn't Damon say first week of Feb. in an earlier post?

Said end of Jan in his first post.

i think whats this is trying to achive is that it is not how much you spend for the best sound possible but to get everyone to think outside the circle and put more effort into instalation/placment etc

it also alowes people that are just starting to get interested in SQ and SQ comps to compete without spending outrages amounts of money.

it also gives people like me a chance to play around with cheep/second hane gear that is not overly expensive and where i can rip it out and change it for something different a week later and not have to save for months on end just to upgrade 1 componet and can go to comps each time with a different setup and see what works.

personly if i had a crap hot system that scored exellent at every comp and won constantly why would i want to play with my stereo?

isent that the fun part of car audio, being able to swap, test and play with different gear.........

um, my last post was directed at bruce
sorry dident see a whole second page.

also on the pricing.
whats to stop soneone going out and buying a $1000 splits and saying there second hand?

should there be a time limit for pricing on s/h goods?

say something that is 2 years old can then be classed as s/h
or say equipment that is no longer manafactured?

fudd even if they do use $1000 ssplits and call them 2nd hand, they still have to get a head unit, a sub, and an amp in that $500 budget... so i think its pretty much a self restricting rule

and i think it was dscussed earlier in here that 2nd hand shoud be listed as stff thats no longer availbe brand new?

really i think that mostly damons rules work.. the 2nd hand classification coudl get a bit dicey but comeone ppl, lets not split hairs!!

a month or 2 ago marc was talkign abtou an amp review he was working on for a mag article testing a whole lot of differnt amps with a blind test and whatever, and everyopne came in and started trashing it saying "its not accurate blah blah blah.." and as a result, it didnt get off the ground.. but THIS IS READY TO GO!

damon is going out of his way to get this through and make something big of it, potentilaly on a nation wide scale, and we're arguing over the definition of 2nd hand or about the amp limitations?? the limitations and rules may not agree with everyone, but lets not f*** up a good thing before it gets off the ground...

if it becomes a class in CAASQ, then i definatley see the need to get teh rules straight, but as far as getting ppl interested in sq is concerned, for the time being near enough is good enough.

*cough* where did all that come from??

/me crawls under a rock

*Applaud basic124*

i see where ya comming from basic, i just wanna know that the rules are set in concrete and there is going to be no bitching when it comes to the competition.

what about another sugestion, possible a bit hard, but have everyone who wants to enter do a pre entry form with a list of all there equipment for pricing handed in atleast 1 week prior to the comp?

That's what i was suggesting fudd... So then i could work out current market values for the items...

That's what i was suggesting fudd... So then i could work out current market values for the items...

Good discussions and ideas being thrown around so far lads. Please everyone bare in mind that the rules I began with were a starting point as, well, we all need to start somewhere right?

To explain a little further, the limitation on the number of amps and woofers in the system is about keeping it simple. I enjoy a challenge like anyone else, and producing the goods with less channels makes you think long and hard abnout how to achieve great results with little to work with. Maybe we could make it a channel limit - like say 5 channels of external amplification maximum. The idea being to do more with less.

The woofers follow the same theory, as I don't feel there are many cars that need any more than two tens or one fifteen to make ample bass for SQ. I suppose there are already way too many guys about who have dual twelves so, how about we alter it to a 'no more than two' woofers. Again we should focus on quality and not quantity, and a class where guys are running four cheapo fifteen doesn't shout 'Low buck SQ' to anyone now does it.

Keep the ideas flowing and discussion happening, and in a few days we'll arrive at a good set of basic guidelines for this story and a future competition class.

I plan on doing the get together on the 7th or 8th of February. Would that be enough time? We'd gather at Homebush at a car park somewhere as it is fairly central. It would take a few hours for the photo shooit and interview with everyone.

I still believe the only limitation should be the budget, and if people can work out ways in which they can incorporate several woofers into a tight budget good on them for using creative budgeting...

I still can't understand the thinking behind your channel limit either :roll:

Sunday 8th sounds good to me

Damon - Your thoughts on market value estimates on items rather than the rrp methods u were talking about earlier?