"Oh no, not another one of those threads", I hear you think.

I'm getting a first car soon (several years overdue) and while the current audio system in there is sufficient, it doesn't quite mesh with my audiophile-like tastes.

At present, it's got a Sansui headunit in it, MP3 CD/RW capable, using the integrated amp to power JBL splits in the front and two JBL 6x9s on the back of the boot door. It's a Skyline wagon, circa-86, for the record.

Basically I'd want to start looking at improving the sound quality a bit - I hate the sound of the splits (I find the treble somewhat harsh and a lack of upper midrange, also, bass is very nonexistent unless you boost it on the HU's EQ).

I'm a fan of SACD and DVD-Audio, plus I'd like a headunit capable of MDLP-style minidisc playback (but Hi-MD will be on the market before I purchase a headunit upgrade anyway). I'm probably dreaming, I just don't know what's out there. That said, any CD player capable of MP3 discs and some way of playing minidiscs (preferably in a stacker or headunit form) would be a nice HU setup. Are there even any SACD players out there?

Minidisc could be a problem. The only MP3+CD/Minidisc unit I can find is the Alpine one - and I have to order that internationally. If minidisc would cost me a fortune compared to just an MP3+CD player, then I guess I'll give it the flick. I also want a line level input.

Not sure how to tackle the amp thing. I'm willing to bet that the Sansui integrated amp probably blows even the biggest goats, so I might consider a preamp as an upgrade if it'd improve the JBL sound and pave a nice upgrade path to getting some decent speakers. I don't need heaps of power. Something that can play loudly but transparently - but not to be heard three suburbs away.

Processors and whatnot are a bit extreme for what I'm initially after. Perhaps when multichannel audio becomes a tad more mainstream, I may look into it, say in a number of years.

Subwoofers are definitely a problem. Most subs I've heard, well, suck. It's a wagon, so I've got a bit of space to play with - a sub that's removable would be a plus, but just because I've got space doesn't mean I want to use it all.

For those interested, my tastes in home theatre/stereo gear are towards Marantz for amplification and SACD/CD/DVD sources, B&W for speakers and subwoofers of the same sort of calibre, such as B&W, M&K, Dali, Velodyne and so on. Some car gear with the same sort of characteristics would be what I'm ultimately after.

The most important thing is that I'll be buying this piece by piece, over time. I'll also want to be able to move the system to a new vehicle in about two or three years. Price range? I'm prepared to pay for quality (I'm not expecting some $150 wonder speakers) but not willing to go into extremes (eg, the F#1 gear is out of my price range).

I hope I've got the right forum for this

Well a foundation basic sound system basically goes like this.

Headunit, amp, splits upfront and a single sub.

I'd seriously consider dropping the minidisc idea, money can definitely be better spent elsewhere.

Obviously u have not heard a sub setup for pure Sound quality as if it is setup properly it should integrate so nicely with the fronts that you shouldn't be able to pick that theres a sub running.

If you have the cash, a 2 channel amp to drive some front splits and a monoblock for a single sub is definitely the way to go.

However if your budget is below say $4000, then consider going with 4 or 3 channel amp as it will provide more than enough power for a Sound quality system yet still go loud enough if u want to pump it.

DVD audio is definitely not mainstream yet, so ull definitely pay a fairly large premium for it, same goes for 5.1 sound. I'd wait a bit until u upgrade to this unless u have a fair bit of money, again it can be better spent.

Theres no point playing Dvd audio if the speakers aren't good enough to take advantage of the extra quality.

As you have ur own tastes for speakers, i'd recomend shopping around and listening to what you ears like. Boston, Focal, Dyn Audio are just a few top Sound Quality Manufacturers worth considering.

Also remember that Instalation makes and breaks a system. Proper instalation of speakers, tuning, sound deadening, speaker placement/angling will make a MASSIVE difference to the sound, so either budget alot of money to a professional instalation or be prepared to do it yourself.

Heres a suggested SQ setup that IN MY OPINION would be excellent quality for around $3000.

Headunit: Alpine 9815 - $900
Amp: Audision SR3x - $700
Fronts: Boston Pro 6.5inch - $900
Sub: 12inch Image Dynamics IDQ v2 D4 $500


Now that would seriously kick bum, and would suit MY tastes.

Deep bass from the IDQ sub as it loves ported box's. The Boston are slightly bright and have heaps of bass which i love, being 2ohm they also draw more power from the audison amp. The alpine looks cool, and has every feature under the sun and quality to boot.

Are you Zardoz from Shafted LAN?

One in the same.

Maz - definitely some food for thought. Not looking at over $4k for this project, was thinking of around 2-3k with the headunit to be the last thing to be replaced as it's the most likely part to age quickly due to technological advances. Initially, the upgrade process will be sub and amp to suit, amp for the rest of the gear, then cable upgrades, and finally the HU.

Go the audison 3 channel if your on a budget.

It won best amp in Europe last year for a reason

welcome to CAA!

the only problem about this forum is that we tend to talk about expensive components! :shock:



sansui is not renowned for high quality audio gear in the car. as you realise, the 'source' is very important for SQ, so consider upgrading this early.

at the moment, the only setup featuring SQ beyondstandard CD playback is the alpine F1 setup where the processor features HDCD decoding.

MD is hardly audiophile, so not worth pursuing IMO. as maz says, better off spending the money elsewhere. for the convenience of a single MD, you may consider going with 1 or 2 CD 6-stackers. (well, i'm not actually sure how much music you can store on MD :wink: ).



integrated amp? you referring to running the speakers directly off the sansui HU?

that will be a large part of your problem in terms of lack of bass and top-end definition. you need an outboard amp.

inbuilt stuff based around tiny IC chips and what-not are useless in comparison to an outboard amp built around a big internal power supply, and high voltage rails, etc. the frequency bandwidth, channel separation, dynamics and overall clarity will be far superior with only a modest amp; pay $300 and you'll have instant improvement. obviously pay more and you'll go better again.

then consider an outboard amp will have inbuilt xovers to highpass your small speakers. removing the subbass will greatly improve their power handling and clarity.



forget it in a car . consider the harsh environment a car offers. let alone when you turn the engine on and start driving: wind/engine/roadnoise...

save the SACD and DVD audio for home where you'll appreciate the added SQ. in the car, you'll struggle as it is in comparison (if you're used to a home audiophile setup).



integrated vs pre vs poweramp. are you being mixed up here?

i'd consider the HU to be like an integrated setup: preamp/amp inbuilt into the one unit plus the source. so more like an integrated receiver plus CD.

the preamp is merely the controls, including source selection and volume +/- processing. the poweramp is simply that, an amp. so an outboard amp (in the case of car audio) is what forms the power amp in your car audio setup.

so sure, upgrading the HU will improve the preamp as well as the source. then add an outboard amp to make away with the HUs inbuilt amps for your SQ power amp.



yeah, the critical part of any decent sub setup is:
*decent power
*decent sub
*top quality subbox: in both design (for suitable dimension and sealed or ported) and construction



unfortunately, car audio cost a lot more to recreate similar qualities to audiophile home audio. especially as car audio requires heaps and heaps of $$ for installation if you want really high quality results. but spend $1K on some car audio splits and they won't sound as good as $1K home audio stuff. not for a lack in driver quality, but cos of installation limitations.

but i would suggest investing heavily in installation if you want high quality results. but then you have to consider if it's worth doing in your car which you'll only sell in a few years. so lining it with $100s of sound deadener, etc may not be worth it. especially as you're starting with a 'base' that's of old-car quality (no offence for the durable skyline, but it's no BMW/merc, etc).

maz has set you on the right path. a seemingly basic setup of front splits and single sub are the way to go for value-for-money designs.

i'd suggest the following order of steps:
*4-channel amp: $500~800; run your existing speakers off them for now
*12" sub: $500 plus subbox; add that low-end you're after; run it off channels 3-4 of the amp (bridged mono) and forego powering the rear speakers off the amp
*front splits: $600~1000; probably the most important components for SQ; worth spending the money here to acquire high quality sound; but don't skimp on installation
*HU: $600~1000; finally upgrade the source; depending on HU choice, it may also offer heaps of tuning/processing ability

come time to install the front splits, look into how to do a quality installation. issues like sound deadening, angled solid door pods, sealing off door service holes, optimal tweeter positioning, etc.

note that i've refrained from recommending brands and models, only cos there's heaps and heaps out there. but you should first work out a design for your system before choosing the components.

good luck

Nice taste in home speakers!! I've got two pairs of B&W 602's run off a huge NAD amp for my overpowered home system. I loved the 602's so much I went and bought a second pair , instead of upgrading to the 603's or 604's, and I thought they sounded better!

You know how amps play a large role in home hi-fi? They don't play as large a role here car audio land. FRONT STAGE SPEAKERS ARE KING! Don't skimp here: you'll regret it every time.

I used Boston Pro's in my first car build, and I love them. They are amazingly accurate, and don't mind getting fed a bit of power either.

An a/b test to remember. Boston pro's ($950) run off a PG M44 ($1300?). Awesome sound. Same amp running a set of $250 boston co-ax's - I wasn't happy at all (it was temporary anyway). The Boston Pro's run off a Rockford 2.6 amp (250-400, not sure) - it sounded nearly as good as the PG amp!

I was about 90% as satisfied with the cheap amp as I was with the big set up, but wasn't happy at all with the cheap speakers and the good amp.

FRONT SPEAKER RULE!

Not keen on upgrading the source, but I'm aware of how poor quality the Sansui is (i.e. I'm not afraid to say that it's junk). The Panasonic HU that used to be in that car sounded miles better, but one of the rear amp channels broke. Very tempted to put that back in and use it for pre-out to an amp.



While I'm aware that MD isn't exactly audiophile (not in the league of HDCD decoding), I want to standardise on the media I use for portable audio. I'll be looking towards the Hi-MD capable units when production picks up a little later in the year. Hi-MD is a new MD format, supporting true PCM recording (hence why I'm interested in the format for live recording) and ATRAC isn't such a bad encoding algoirthm. I'm looking at the Hi-MD walkman very soon, once they're available locally (damned if I'm buying a Sony unit without warranty!).

The other option is to go for something with a decent aux input, so that I can feed a line-in to the HU. I'd assume that most mid-to-high-end head units have such features on them.





Well spotted Yeah, I meant power amp.



That sounds like the sort of thing I'm after.

What's the best way to audition such gear? I understand that it could be tricky, as auditioning the same setup in one car can be vastly different to another (and I admit that the Skyline of the 86-87 era probably isn't going to help in that respect). That's why I'm looking towards an amp and sub first, then will re-evaluate the decision when it comes to upgrading the splits and perhaps wait a bit and look out for a car that's more suitable for audio.

Where does one buy high end car audio gear in Melbourne?

to audition stuff, start with listening to them on a demo board. whilst this is not truly representative of incar reproduction, it will guide you as to what sounds better than other stuff.

for splits, demo boards will highlight treble down to midrange nicely. midbass can vary according to the quality of the demo board, which in turn can vary greatly to incar. but, if it lacks midbass on the demo board, it may be much better in the car. again, demo boards serve as a comparison, without necessariliy demonstrating their full potential.

subs can sound terrible in shops. in the car, you will have 'cabin gain', the natural accoustic boosting of the really, really low subbass. this is lost in the open shop room.

when visiting stores, ask to have a listen to any demo cars or even customer cars.

good places in melb include:
*freeway car audio: malvern, dandenong
*GL pro sound: essendon
*stylyn car audio: boronia

plenty of others offer quality gear and installation.