are they worth the extra expense?

well seeing that the whole point of splits is that the tweeter location can be "customized" (I realize that this makes no sense), and in rear fill we want just a small small small level of sound and honeslty don't really care about imaging/staging from the rear too much, you decide.......

if you got them already however, then don't worry about using them for fill though

I wouldn't bother because you usally only have rear fill for the sake of people who sit in the back so they get abit of sound, plus your more than likely running them off the HU. I know I will use my old splits outta my car that got totalled for rear fill in the new Car but that is only because I have them and dont wanna fork out more cash for 2-ways.

if you can afford it i would buy a midrange driver for the rear..maybe th esame brand as the front stage

good luck

btw i dont recommed coax or splits unless these are for the rear passengers enjoyment

another reason to go with higher quality rears is for dolby digital 5.1. i have it, and i use high quality splits.

still, if you 'like' rearfill and you wish to turn things up loud, then cheap stuff may distort early on. better stuff should have better power handling and sound much nicer when loud.

cheap or expensive, they should ideally be HP'd appropriately for best performance.

the only main advantage i see running a good set of splits in the rear is 5.1 dolby digtial, as shiny said and as i am doing. thats the only real advantage

i forgot that some people can afford 5.1 in their car...wow that would be awesome :-)

why would 5.1 benefit from splits at the rear?

also, as the rule of thumb for tweeter aiming for a front stage is to aim the tweeter at the opposite side headrest, then tweak the positioning from there, whats the go with the rears?

I got some Focal Polyglass 3 way splits...

it comprises of a tweeter, a 4inch midrange and a 6inch midbass

I was going to put the 6inch midbass in the rear and the tweeter and 4 inch midrange in the front... would that work? The reason for this is that it would fit right into the stock speaker mounts (cept the tweeter which can go wherever)

i am contemplating splits in the rear aswell, i love rear fill just forthe completeness of the sound (i'm a sucker for any sort of surround). not sure if i want to go some sort of nice 6" 2ways or some jaycar kevlar splits (they will be amplified).

this won't work really, its a 3 way component system that will benefit greatly from being used in the front stage, its like putting tweeters in the front only and mid drivers in the rear, it doesn't work, same as the 3 ways.

the main reason for 5.1 surround benefitting from the splits in rear is that the audio source isn't sent in 2 channels, its sent 5 channels + sub duties. so you have front left, front right, center, rear left and rear right. each speaker can run independantly from it all. where as normal music or 2 channel source runs front left & rear left, then the front right & rear right + subs running the bass.

i do not have splits in the rear, however i have a very good quality coaxial which is the same as my front splits without the external crossover.

i hope that this has somehow helped you guys, the explaination in simple terms, if not then i'm sure shiny can explain this a lot further than i can.

I got the same fronts as rears and love the balance, the size of the car plays a part though....

splits per se would be less critical for rears as it's difficult to achieve a rear soundstage that images nicely. the wider apart the rears in your car are, the better the soundstage (typically). but most rear parcel shelf areas are much narrower than the front (or at least where you end up mounting the speakers); physically mounting the tweets right in the corners might help here though.

but the benefit of most splits is that they are use higher quality drivers (woofers and tweets) and passive xovers. otherwise, a high quality set of coax's would probably suffice.

in setups other than 5.1, i think adding in high quality rears (like splits) should be 'down the list' on things you wish to upgrade and improve. but when the time comes to add rears, spend as much as you can if you want really good results; this would include having a decent amp to drive them.

atsq2: your imaging will be all wrong if you put the woofers in the back. say you had an instrument playing a scale from treble all the way down to midbass. the sound would start off from your tweets up front, change to the mids, then finish off coming from behind you! not good.

damn... if i knew that i wouldnt have bought 3 way splits...

so should i put all 3 speakers in the front door or can i put the drivers in the back door? or should i just sell my speakers and get 2 way splits?

defintely put them in the front doors.

3 ways will sound better providing you take the time to install them properly (which IMO aint worth it)

you can't tell me no-one told you that installation was a potential nightmare for 3-way splits now can you? :?

easiest installation technique for good results is woofers in the doors, and mids/tweets together in a custom kickpanel installation.

No actually I think I got the wrong message. I spoke to Freeway car audio and they told me that I could hook the Focal K2 Power 3 Ways and put the woofers at the back (they have separate crossovers from the mid/tweeter) and I assumed that I could do that with the polyglass line too.... OOPS

Now I have already bought my splits, I have to decide what to do... If I get an 'expert' installer like Freeway Car Audio, surely they can do it right... right?

so much to learn

i have had my 'issues' with expert installers

well, ask them how they propose they could install them. remember what i've said (if indeed they propose for woofers in the back) and see what they say. i can't imagine they could suggest it's a good thing. :shock:

also ask about having the full set installed up the front with the woofers in custom pods in the doors.

YEah I will ask them that. I wanted to avoid cutting my door but o well it is all but unavoidable unless i splash cash and go for the Focal K2 Power 165K3P. Those were quite something. Tweeter + 6.5inch midrange (and crossover) + 6.5inch midbass (and 2nd crossover)... I believe they've set one up with the midbass at the rear and it turned out ok... but this only applies for the 165k3p apparently...

hmm, certainly not in keeping with convention. but that's no bad thing. i'd be interested to know how it sounds (well, probably not aailable to audition). i just don't think it would be as good as having midbass up front.

and again.....

whats the rule of thumb for aiming the tweeters if you're gonna use a set of splits for rear fill? is it the same as the front (aim at the opposite front headrest and experiment from there)?

that is always a good start. but i've found that getting the rear stage to image well is very difficult, with the width of the soundstage being very narrow and 'collapsed' down towards mono (but not so bad!).

i think this is largely because the parcel shelf area is often literally narrower than the front dashboard width. but given the relatively low importance of rearfill (dolby 5.1 aside) it's not that critical.

it may be very variable from car to car, so you may have better results than i do.

hmm.... in that case it's pretty good news cos if i go ahead with it, there's a pair of courtesy lamps halfway up the C pillar that could be modified to hold a tweeter.....

XF Fairmont Ghia btw

Soz for butting in... but I think I am gonna get rid of my 3 way polyglass and get those polykevlars i mentioned... apparently, Freeway car audio spoke with Focal and was informed that it was perfectly fine to fit the polykevlars in as I described in the earlier post. They have done one car already and it apparently sounded great.

putting the 6 inch mids in the back is not a good idea.as stated the threeway system splits up the audio signal between three diffrent drivers so thoes drivers need to be mounted as close together as possible so the audio signal comes from the same plane .As you go lower in frequency it gets less directional sothat is why mids and tweets go in the kicks and woofers go inthe doors because the pathlength is more critical for thr high frequency drivers.either sell your 3 ways or do your install properly and make door pods or doors and kicks.Buy the way are you sure the store that made the mistake of advising you on the wrong speakers for your application isn't trying to cover itself buy telling you to install threeways that way.my advice go to a few other stores and speak to people about your install and get some proper advice.

Hi, thanks for helping out. I found out that the 3 way splits cross over at 300Hz from the 6 inch midrange to 6 inch midbass. Are the frequencies of 300HZ and below low enough to be placed behind? What are your opinions?

just my experience, i've found that for 5.1, in the front the splits inline with the headrests in the front works well, as it bounces off the rear window, and doesn't cross the image if you sorta understand what i mean

IMO, still too high to have the woofers in the back. midbass (ie: 100~300Hz) is still quite directional, so your ears will localise the sound coming from behind. it's also the bandwidth (freq range) where you get the 'punch' in the bass.

having them in the rear will be a compromise. as long as you're aware of the limitation, then consider going with it. it's still better than having no midbass at all; that is, better than running 4" 2-way splits upfront and a sub. so consider going with it if you're stuck for that reason and don't wish to invest the time and cost into custom door pods, etc.

but to the trained ear, it will be far from perfect, yet still sound ok. however, if you compared it with a properly setup stereo, you'd pick the difference straight away.

Sigh.. maybe i will just stick to my polyglass 3 way (tweet, 4 and 6) and get my door butchered to fit them

No need for butchering...

Put the 4" mid in the stock location up front.

Get a pro install centre to fabricate some custom kick panel housings for the 6" woofer and the tweeter together, you can even get them appropriately angled for on-axis response this way.

The custom install may prove a little pricey but you've acquired some top notch gear for your install, my advice would be to spend that extra and get it all installed properly.

For an illustration of what I'm suggesting, check out the Audi TT install in the Dec issue of InCar Entertainment...

cool! thanks! do u have a scan of this mag article?

results will probably still not be as good as having the 6" woofers in the doors. this is because they perform best with some form of 'enclosure'. sure, you can custom make a fibreglass enclosure in the kickpanel region, but this cost $$ and may require mods including relocation computers, fuseboxes, pedals, etc. and the enclosure is unlikely to be as rigid as a door, so may sound a little 'hollow'

if you're prepared to go custom, then have the woofers mounted into the doors, using the doors as enclosures.

can i just ask wat the devils is Dolby 5.1? and i want 1 cuz it sounds cool

Just to prolong the debate...

The Focal PolyKevlar 165K3P consists of...

1 tweeter, 1 x 6.5inch driver + 1 crossover unit...

2nd 6.5 inch driver + 2nd crossover unit...

Can't that just be regarded has 2 way splits in the front and a 6inch midbass rear fill?

aren't the K3's a 3-way setup? 6.5" woofer, 4.75" midrange and 1" tweeter.

the K2P's are a 2-way setup.

musky: 5.1 is dolby digital for DVD playback. 6 channels (5 small for fr-L, fr-R, rr-L, rr-R, centre + 1 sub-channel). just like at home, but we're talking about in the car.

Yeah the K3Ps are supposed to be a 3 way setup but they seem to be like a strange component kit. They have TWO 6.5inch drivers and TWO crossover units per channel (thereby requiring a 4 channel amp to run). Does that change things at all? I will link you to the focal website and you can tell me what you think.

http://www.focal.tm.fr/gb/car/k2power/165k3p.htm

It doesn't mention that there are two crossovers but you can spot it in the pic and Freeway car audio assures me that there are.

hey, yeah. apologies for my lack of knowledge into the new range. i mistakenly referred to the older range (165K3) which i presumed would be very similar, and use a smaller midrange driver.

i note that the xover point between the woofer and midrange is 300Hz. this is good and low for a 3-way setup. so it would minimise any 'directionality' of the woofer should you place it in the back of the car in the parcel shelf region. but not perfect IMO, but much better than say the dyn 3-way setup that relies on the woofer up to ~800Hz and the midrange taking over from there.

so i can see that this differs from other 3-way setups, and would indeed allow rear-mounting of the woofer where required with 'good' results. given that i haven't auditioned such a setup i cannot comment on how good/bad it would be. i can only make judgement on general principles, which suggests that having the woofers in the back would be a compromise; how audible that is, would be interesting to hear.

Cool, I might go for it as I want to try to fit things into the holes that already exist and not cut new ones. I understand that its not 100% ideal but I am willing to take anything over 90% :wink:

My budget has been blown out of proportion (my proportions anyways) as my list has changed to...

Eclipse 8053 hu
tube driver blue 475 (4 chan)
focal 165k3p (3 way 4 chan set)
soundstream tarantula or phoenix gold ti sub amp
focal kevlar sub to match my speaker drivers (expensive mofos these are)

some awesome gear there. should be great if they execute the installation as planned.