Looking for some advise on upgrading the front stage in my car.

I just upgraded my headunit to a Clarion DXZ835MP which isn't a bad unit.

Running off that currently i have some very low end Sony Xplode 6" speakers 1 pair in front and 1 pair in back (on a custom made parcel shelf which is about probably 10-12mm thick carpeted). All 4 speakers run of an Alpine V-Power MRP200 (i think? the low end alpine 4x40wrms amp)... All of this gear came with the car except for the headunit i just updated.

The car used to have a decent system in it before i bought it, this stuff was thrown in it before it was sold... and it sounds terrible - the headunit upgrade has made it barable to listen to now (the old headunit is a Pioneer DEH-1550 if anyone wants to buy it make me an offer

So since there was a system in already it has aftermarket wiring that looks ok and stinger RCA leads etc... Amp mounted on a carpeted board in the boot already and the parcel shelf etc...

The amp isn't the best i know this, but at the moment the speakers have to be the worst part of the system so i want to upgrade the front stage (rear im not fussed about since its a small cabin the fronts are what im interested in spending money on).

I had a look at freeway car audio and i said i wanted something a bit better than your sony/pioneer etc.. they recommended the Focal 165A, which are about 370 a pair. 500 installed with wooden pods etc...

He said those will run ok off my current amp... I'm not after a crazy good SQ system (its a performance car first) but i prefer SQ over loudness.

What i figure is get a set of splits in off the current amp and then if i'm still not happy upgrade the amp at a later stage.

So to the point - anyone with experience installing/listening/knowing of stereos in R33 (skylines in general?) Can they sound ok? do i need custom wooden pods? What about placment of the tweeter? i could install myself into the air ducts? but I don't feel comfortable making wooden pods for the drivers...

What aboud sound deadening the doors? worth it?

I may look into adding a SUB later if needed, but would prefer not to.

Any advice welcome

I have an R33 GTR and have done a couple of different installations into it. The R33 is very receptive to audio gear, as it has a wide and deep cabin and a nicely shaped dashboard that allows sound to propogate well and create a great sound stage.

If you want to keep the installation simple I'd suggest sticking with a 6.5-inch 2-way component set up front, and the Focals are a very good speaker so audition them and if you like them - go for it!

The mids will mount to the factory plastic door speaker brackets without any cutting, and if you don't mind adding an extra kilo of weight some sound deadening on the inside of the outer door skins would be a great idea.

I would highly recommend against mounting the tweeters in the vents on the dash, as they are asymetrical for a start. They will also shield the opposing side listening position from any treble response that will cause very nasty side bias imaging.

If you have a look at the A-pillar trims at their bases near the dash top you'll notice small rectangular cut outs for where factory tweeter grilles go. These offer a very good positions to mount your tweeters that will give a high and wide sound stage. There are some people who prefer to keep the tweeters close to the mids but this will drag the sound stage low.

Good luck!

The best sounding 33 GTR I've done used Focal Uptopia 3 ways, with custom kicks for the 4's and tweets. Sub bass came from 3 Crossfire BMF 10s.

You can also have great stage height with the tweeters in the kicks.

Phil

is this peculiar to the R33? i've not auditioned a system in one of these cars but see plenty of nice install pics and stuff.

otherwise, plenty of high quality systems in non-R33's feature kick-mounted tweets and maintain very high sound stages when executed properly.

Exactly.

The human ear is geared to sense sound across a horizontal plain, based on the evolutionary need to avoid predators. Any claim that you need to keep the mid and tweeter close to ensure phasing are nonsense, the wavelength of high frequencies means even a subtle head movement will cause your tweeters to "go out of phase" with your mids.

Phil

maybe even look at bridging the amp to run the focals. I don't think the mrp will be powerful enough to run them otherwise. If you want somewhere really simple to put your tweeters, try the triangular piece of trim at the bottom of the a pillar. You can silicone it there to have a realistic audition then decide later if you want to move it around. It is a great spot if you like your music bright and detailed.

Blu Tac is the best material for tweeter audition mounting.

Phil

blu tac works great if your just listening to it, but don't try driving around with it blu tac'd on..... and silicon just takes too damn long

but i agree that audition whatever fits into your budget, and seeing that speed comes first, and you don't have a sub do what shan33 said and bridge the amp ....can't remember if it(the mrp-f200) had hp on all channels though

oh and i have my tweets in the kicks......doesnt seem too low (though some times i can pick the stage as being a tad low, my tweeter angle isnt perfect though and i know it), but then again every car is different

THanks for the info guys...

THe mrp-f200 can be bridged to 100wrms per channel supposedly, but wouldn't this reduced the quality of the sound even more (someone told me this)?

Also would i be better of spending money on sound deading or new pods made from wood?

(warning large image)
http://photos.ferni.net/gtr/03%20-%20Door%...im/IMG_1045.JPG

that is my exisitng door pod - is that standard/ that (crap) sony speaker seems to fit very well in there so i'm worried the pods are for the sonys..

My mates Alpine type R 6.5" i tried wouldn't quite fit in that pod...

Hey Phil, seems like your memory of old Soundstream seminars from the early to mid ninties and their point about 'ears on the sides of our heads' and 'attuned to our natural predators' stuff stuck - huh? I remember the subject vividly.

That reminds me of the old saying that 'bass is omnidirectional and you can't perceive where it emanates from in a car'.

I don't agree with that one either.

If your experience is such that low tweeters can achieve a high sound stage then so be it. My own personal experience says otherwise.

I prefer the other adage that goes - 'if you want something to sound like its coming from somewhere - put the speaker there'.

One of the best ways to prove this theory is a double blind test of cars with high and low tweeter mounts. Then make a judgement on how high the stage is when you don't know where the speakers are mounted in the car. Then put a passenger in the car whose limbs cover the tweeters from the ears of the opposing listener.

It would be interesting to see the results of such a test done on both experience and non experienced listeners.

The midrange is most important speaker for imaging. The frequencies that provide most of the imaging cues are generally centred in the midrange. However it's true that the tweeter does enhance the "ambience".

Tweeter location is best determined by the shape of the vehicle's dash. Many cars do in fact work better when the tweeters are mounted higher. simply becuase of the dashboard's acoustic properties.

As for my knowledge of human hearing it comes from my studies in biology, can't say I've ever been to a Soundstream seminar.

Phil

car audio is a compromise. tweeter position is of course one of them. tweets up high will of course offer a high soundstage, but there can be probs with 'steering' the soundstage towards the tweet positioned nearest to you ears (ie: to the R for the driver) as well as 'separation' issues.

all are fairly minor and to the untrained ear, don't exist. but for those with some knowledge and experience can pick up these nuiances.

the degree of problem will also depend on the drivers/speakers and other components. as such, experimentation is the key (= time). but i don't think you can generalise too much about any particular car/setup, although personal experience does speak for a lot and will make a good guide to a starting point.

are you serious ??? if you actually got the soundstream message you would understand mans need to locate a sound on a horizontal plane. It meant we could eat if we new where the food source was. We dont have an ear on top our head because knowing height really doesnt effect our ability as hunters.

Owls ears are offset so they can detect a specific location(height width and depth) because they are flying when they attack the prey. Humans dont fly and have level ears because direction and distance, not height, was all we needed to be great hunters. Anyway high freqs are time dependent, where as midrange freqs are time and volume dependent, and midbass is just volume dependent. true bass ie what we call sub bass is non directional. Can u hear where an earhtquake is coming from or a thunder ???

Seperation is not a phase issue and any fool who knows what to listen to can detect it with the right type of music.

I have judged numerous cars for stage height and it doesnt take a double blind test, you just close eyes if you are inexperienced but if you know how to listen and not look and listen then you can judge stage height with eyes open and it will be as high or low as it is. You do need music that has timing cues that are low, like the "freedom" track on Iasca/ACAD CD. If you use this to judge you can tell a system with tweets up high and mids in doors doesnt image at all most times.


Anyway I have no doubt Damon disputes what many others know is the case as what would soundstream know..... FFS they have only been around since true high end fidelity started in cars, and used to employ some of the greatest minds in the field... I guess they didnt do 1000s of reveiws and stand up on high, they just got the job done.

I dont own an r33 but I do have a car thats undeafeted in pro class SQ, and have been a judge for many years and have judged some of the best systems ever built in this country but if Damon says we got it wrong and he knows better then my bad. I guess I just imagined all those low mounted tweeters, like mine staging high. I just now wish I had mounted all my speakers above dash so I could have had a "true" high sound stage rather than the one I and others "imagined" was there
LATER
Cyberpunky

hee,hee, there's obviously differing views from highly experienced people. what it probably suggests is that there's no 'perfect' method, otherwise we'd all be doing it that way.

one experience i can offer

the mcintosh demo car in the usa

had a good critical listen to this sytem for about 30mins (yes that is all i could take).

had the mcintosh car audio dealer in the car with me telling me how ive never heard anything better than this in car and that this system was the pinacle of car audio excellence.

at the end of the demo i was asked about my experience

it was one of the worst soundquality cars i have heard.

i dont think that the mcintosh representative liked my comments...he looked very angry and continued to be for the rest of the WCES

this system comprised of multiple drivers and multiple tweeters located in kicks rear parcel shelf and rear view mirror

more speakers does not make a system sound better. In this case it was detrimental.

two other cars i had a chance to audition on the same day(the cdt car and a small german high-end car audio driver brand). These cars thrashed the mcintosh car for soundstage and imaging. These both used a simple setup using a single sub with a 6.5inch mid/midbass and tweeter....yes a total of 10drivers in two cars (averaged exactly to 5drivers per car) and that was still less than the mcintosh car had installed in ONE car!!!!

simple is sometimes better and sometimes cheaper

install is also extremely critical and the goals you as the customer want to achieve.

Gee Bruce, you sure do get your little undies in a knot when I post don't you?

When oh when will you get over the fact that I didn't give you a pass before everyone else at Final Battle four years ago...

Boo hoo...

hehe Id forgotten all about that Damon as it was no biggie, and if you think I post due to some trivial issue from many years ago you are sadley mistaken. In your ilinformed post above you imply that tweeters should be mounted high and this is only way to get high stage. This is patently false and goes against the mainstream thought in car audio today. Try posting these ramblings at some of the US forums and watch how they react the same as I have done. Your title of former car audio journalist(sp) wont hold any weight there and you would have to back up what you say, which Im afraid you would struggle to do.

You suggest a double blind test. Why not actually listen to some cars yourself and get the experience you obviously lack, so you have a proper understanding of the subject at hand. Tweeters are high freq drivers and so cannot make a stage, as we listen to full range music. The fact you dont get this fact doesnt enhance your alleged credibility.

The reason I reply to points you make is that you give me valid reasons too. Its easy enough to avoid Damon, just get your facts correct.
later
cyberpunky

Can we keep this constructive. Personal digs not required.

quote from cyber :

"In your ilinformed post above you imply that tweeters should be mounted high and this is only way to get high stage. This is patently false and goes against the mainstream thought in car audio today"

perosnally id love to hear a kick panel install (tweeter and mid) that had a soundstage above the top of the dash.

if there are cars that have a high soundstage (above the top of the dash) i would really like to hear them

Wow, Cyber and I agreeing.............scary!

LOL

Phil

Jas, I have heard many cars that exhibit this. A few cars I have spent some time listening to that do, include the Alpine digimax commodore, that was one of the first in this country to use properly set up time alignment. This cars sounded like there were no speakers, as you could not detect the source of the sound, no matter how hard to listened.

Another great example was a white Telstar we built at work, for a customer named Simon. It used boston pro 3 ways and had wicked hieght even thou tweeters were lowest mounted speaker. Another car is mine, which you are wlecome to demo at any CAA meet.

Anyway I have heard numerous cars that have high mounted tweeters, and although the treble freqs are high, they often have side bias, are overly harsh due to reflections of glass, and quite often have imprecise centre image, due also to reflections. They typically dont image well as imaging is judged on full range sound not just treble.

IMO if you can keep tweeters below dash height and away from glass, there are numerous benefits in SQ terms, but if SQ isnt your thing then mounting them wherever sounds good to you is the way to go.
peace
Cyberpunky

Cyber i would love to get to hear some cars with high soundstages with kickpanel installs.

i have yet to hear this in america out of 4 wces 0 have exibited this high soundstage using kickpanels without any other tweeters mounted else where.

what the yanks do is make sure the seats in the cars are able to be pushed back to the rear seat then they lie back the seats so your head is a lot lower than normal driving position. Placing the drivers head in a lower position did not raise the soundstage height (perfect example of this is the MTX civic demo car in usa). The biggest problem with this is that it is NOT practical. I drive my car so this arrangement is NOT possible (note not being able to see over the dash and not touch the pedals isnt all that practical as you might have guessed....but still seee that happen in lygon or chappel street on a saturday night)

As far as staging and image placement i have not heard anything better than Sony australia XES demo car. SUbbass and midbass were very ordinary but the midrange and treble was incredible. Unfortunately to get best out of the system you had to do the yank thing...seats back, backrest tilted at a angle not suited to driving. THis system almost had depth of soundstage....an amazing achievement that usually requires you sitting in the middle of the two point sources (two channel home audio).

Maybe i need to save up for a car that could achieve a good soundstage...Mclearn f1...where did i put that cheque book???

I've had the pleasure of listening to 2 installs where the tweeters were mouted low, and if I wasn't told where the tweeters were mounted I wouldn't have known they were that low...

Which is how I'm going to install mine with my new set of splits..

Cyberpunky,
One question though, when I was auditioning those installs, the volume was quite high.. but do they/would they have the same effect at moderate or low volumes (for everyday use?) in your oppinion?

Thanks!

Mike

They should dubboy but the gain structure may not be perfect and so you may find different spectral balances at differing volumes, which can impact on stage although, how much is anyones guess.

In my car I use an MVC (master volume control) to avoid any changes in gain structure, but its a hard core SQ item and most systems wont use one. Anyway gain structure is a whole nother subject and its impact on the stage should be minimal if any.

Jas the yanks do some amazing things with their comp cars, as you have seen. A few years ago they had a car that basically had home speakers mounted in each footwell/underdash area, and the guy had the judges sitting virtually in back seat, I think he had even modified the sterring and pedals to be able to drive the car from this position.

Using Kicks dash height or a few inches above is the highest I have heard, but in the US many fit ambience tweeters running from 18k up, which although above most human hearing, is said to lift stage hieght. I know a few of the Horn guys like Earl used these with apparently great results, but as horns tend to drop off at 18K it may be of more benefit for horn use than with tweeters.
peace
Cyberpunky