hi guys
i've been thinking abotu this for a while, would it work if i upgraded my stock speakers with something else from another vehicle. I figure it would be less than $600 for a set of splits from each of these cars.
e.g lexus ls430 (suppost to be really good?)
subaru liberty B4 (Mcintosh Sound system?)
I'll use use aftermarket amps of course....what do u guys think.
=)
Full Version: SQ upgrade from another OEM vehicle?
Having seen the drivers McIntosh use in the B4 I wouldn't take them any further away from the car after removal than the closest rubbish bin! I can't vouch for the Lexus but I doubt they would be much better. The HK stuff out of the E46 330 is absolute crap, looks like factory VS commodore speakers minus the whizzer cone.
Depends on if the Lexus has the Mark Levinson package or not, which is quite an awesome setup compared to the majority of "aftermarket" system on the streets nowdays.
Why?
With the range of after-market speakers available, why chop a set from another breed of car? $600 can buy some nice speakers, why limit yourself to oem?
With the range of after-market speakers available, why chop a set from another breed of car? $600 can buy some nice speakers, why limit yourself to oem?
QUOTE (Hutch)
Having seen the drivers McIntosh use in the B4 I wouldn't take them any further away from the car after removal than the closest rubbish bin!
I agree. Same goes for the HU in the B4 and the GT, quite a few have had problems with it "crackling".
The 3 ways in the GT are a bit better than the ones in the older B4, but still a compromise.
If you are going to buy used OEM speakers from another car, imo you'd be better of looking in the 'for sale' section here.
And you could get some really nice splits brand spanking new for under $600!
Bye,
Mo
yeah thats all true, but some cars come with good sound systems stock (ie cars that cost 6 digits)..thought it was worth looking into thats all..
anyway.....aftermarket for me.
anyway.....aftermarket for me.
Even cars worth more than $100,000 have crape stereos in them.
Just because they have famous name brand systems doesn't mean they are good.
The whole reason why the aftermarket stereo business exists is because there are a lot of people out there that are not happy with the systems in the cars they buy new.
I know a couple of people that have bout BMW M3s and then spent plenty of money on upgraded gear for them.
Just because they have famous name brand systems doesn't mean they are good.
The whole reason why the aftermarket stereo business exists is because there are a lot of people out there that are not happy with the systems in the cars they buy new.
I know a couple of people that have bout BMW M3s and then spent plenty of money on upgraded gear for them.
BUT OEM systems are getting a crapload better than what they were 5 years ago.
I'm sure it will get to the point where premium marques will have "premium sound" to boot. Its only a matter of time, the line between aftermarket and OEM is becoming more blurred every day.
I'm sure it will get to the point where premium marques will have "premium sound" to boot. Its only a matter of time, the line between aftermarket and OEM is becoming more blurred every day.
Possibly, but the price for replacement stereo components for someone like Ford are scary enough: can you imagine what a set of components for a luxury car manufacturer are going to be like?
If an Alpine amp from a Ford Fairmont costs $800, but the same amp costs about $350 in the retail market, what value am I going to get on a set of speakers that cost me $1000? Not as much as if I spent $1000 on a set of after market speakers.
If an Alpine amp from a Ford Fairmont costs $800, but the same amp costs about $350 in the retail market, what value am I going to get on a set of speakers that cost me $1000? Not as much as if I spent $1000 on a set of after market speakers.
QUOTE (dasherhalo)
Possibly, but the price for replacement stereo components for someone like Ford are scary enough: can you imagine what a set of components for a luxury car manufacturer are going to be like?
If an Alpine amp from a Ford Fairmont costs $800, but the same amp costs about $350 in the retail market, what value am I going to get on a set of speakers that cost me $1000? Not as much as if I spent $1000 on a set of after market speakers.
If an Alpine amp from a Ford Fairmont costs $800, but the same amp costs about $350 in the retail market, what value am I going to get on a set of speakers that cost me $1000? Not as much as if I spent $1000 on a set of after market speakers.
Exactly!
Fatory systems are way overpriced. A replacement Holden Double Din CD unit for a VX Commodore is supposedly $2500.
It doesn't have RCA output and reliability is questionable at best.
QUOTE (ultim8DTM5)
BUT OEM systems are getting a crapload better than what they were 5 years ago.
I'm sure it will get to the point where premium marques will have "premium sound" to boot. Its only a matter of time, the line between aftermarket and OEM is becoming more blurred every day.
I'm sure it will get to the point where premium marques will have "premium sound" to boot. Its only a matter of time, the line between aftermarket and OEM is becoming more blurred every day.
What crap I'm yet to see a factory system that is even remotely half decent and the holden and ford headunits are utter garbage my brother hooked his VT unit up to his Lightning amp it sounded absolutely terrible his got my old Clarion DXZ-435 in there now with no other changes and the difference is amazing.
Remember dealer parts markup, Mercedes-Benz are charging over $800 for a 6310i to integrate with their built-in Bluetooth function, whereas one can be sourced new without haggling for $550.
But yes, they are overpriced
But yes, they are overpriced
QUOTE (Marlin)
QUOTE (ultim8DTM5)
BUT OEM systems are getting a crapload better than what they were 5 years ago.
I'm sure it will get to the point where premium marques will have "premium sound" to boot. Its only a matter of time, the line between aftermarket and OEM is becoming more blurred every day.
I'm sure it will get to the point where premium marques will have "premium sound" to boot. Its only a matter of time, the line between aftermarket and OEM is becoming more blurred every day.
What crap I'm yet to see a factory system that is even remotely half decent and the holden and ford headunits are utter garbage my brother hooked his VT unit up to his Lightning amp it sounded absolutely terrible his got my old Clarion DXZ-435 in there now with no other changes and the difference is amazing.
What crap? Grab a half-decent line level converter such as a Navone Engineering unit and do the test again, I'd put money that you won't be able to hear the difference between the Clarion and the factory unit!
How about a fellow in the US taking out a SQ comp using factory VW drivers in his Golf and aftermarket amplifiers?
I don't consider Holden and Ford to be premium marques anyway
Umm yeah ok I'll spend more money on a line level converter then a new headunit so I can use something that is medicore at best. All I can say for the bloke in the US was that he mustn't have been up against anyone with anything half decent.
errrrr, I wouldn't go there! oem decks are usually retained when removing causes something like your aircon to stop working!
There's been many an issue raised about oem head units, but I don't think we're talking about HU's here: the topic was about speakers, wasn't it?
There's been many an issue raised about oem head units, but I don't think we're talking about HU's here: the topic was about speakers, wasn't it?
Gees man open your mind, LLC's are important if you have anything similar to a BA/VX headunit-dash-integration combo, not to mention anything from BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus...DIN-sized units are increasingly rare amongst new cars now days.
BTW look here, http://www.davidnavone.com/adaptor_products.htm, less than $100USD delivered for a LLC with a built in 1:3 line driver.
Anyhoo back on-topic, like Wayne said we are talking about speakers here.
Not exactly crap competition, it was the 2003 SLAPshow Nationals. He got the highest SQ score with 3rd overall from factory speakers and Tru Technology amplifiers. His name is Jason Ewing, now part of Image Dynamics Elite Sound Team and in the top 5 for IASCA.
BTW look here, http://www.davidnavone.com/adaptor_products.htm, less than $100USD delivered for a LLC with a built in 1:3 line driver.
QUOTE
Autosound 2000 Test Lab Report on OEM vs. Aftermarket Head Units
Car Audio in the 21st Century
By David Navone
The 1990s brought us OEM systems that are integrated into steering wheels, air conditioning systems, warning lights, factory anti-theft systems, etc. Not only that, but the features and benefits of some OEM systems cannot be easily duplicated in the aftermarket. For instance GM’s Driver 1 or Driver 2 preset preferences and steering wheel controls make swapping head units a difficult decision. Also many OEM in-dash decks can play a CD and a cassette. Upgrading such a deck can be a really tough decision. In fact, many OEM head units are being left in the vehicle and aftermarket system designers are interfacing components to the factory deck. There are shops that lament the fact that they can’t upgrade the factory deck, but with many new vehicles, the OEM deck will probably remain in the car until it hits the wrecking yard.
A2TL Tests New OEM Decks
But is replacing a modern deck with an aftermarket deck really an “upgrade?” We’re nearly into 2001 and our Car Sound Forum’s have been alive with questions about interfacing new OEM decks with aftermarket components. Questions about “sacrificing quality by using an OEM head” have prodded our Autosound 2000 Test Labs into examining the electrical differences between aftermarket decks and OEM decks.
For our tests we chose a new Visteon OEM deck, a new Delco OEM deck and a mid-line priced Japanese deck. (We recently reviewed this popular deck in Car Sound). The Visteon deck utilizes a 6-CD changer (CD-6) and the Delco deck is the 4185. We tested the OEM decks with a high quality interface attached in the same manner they would be used in a typical OEM upgrade. We chose Soundgate LOCHVA OEM interface devices for the tests because Rob Putman at Soundgate is our AutoMedia OEM Interface Editor. The tests were our standard specification measuring programs in the Audio Precision System II.
As we all realize, an important spec is the Maximum Undistorted Signal Level, which was 2.5 volts in the Japanese deck, 3.4 volts in the Visteon deck and 3.9 volts in the Delco deck. These readings were taken just under clipping and notice that the distortion figures are 1% or less. Distortion of less than 2% on musical program material is impossible to hear so the 1% spec is excellent.
The useable dynamic range is the difference between the noise floor and the maximum undistorted output. The Japanese deck yielded a specification of 93 dB, the Visteon deck came in at 82 dB and the Delco deck measured 93 dB. The maximum theoretical dynamic range for a 16-bit CD is 96 dB. This means that these specifications are excellent – especially for a car audio component that must contend with road – wind – vehicle noise.
The last specification we measured was the output or source impedance. The Japanese deck measured a respectable 300 ohms. Both the Visteon and Delco decks had very low output impedance measurements (less than one ohm) because of their speaker level outputs, but with the OEM interface devices installed, the specs were a little over 1000 ohms for each deck. Is this a bit high for car audio?
Output Impedance Specs
In Noise Troubleshooting 101, we learned that a high output impedance could be a source for noise. The output impedance can be thought of as a resistance (actually impedance) in series with the signal. For those readers who hate Ohm’s Law, we have can say, “The highest voltage will be developed across the highest resistance.” This means that a high source impedance could allow a higher noise level to be produced across that resistance. This last statement is also the key to the potential problem for noise.
Since the output impedance of the speaker leads of the OEM decks themselves is certainly very low, there will be very low noise levels produced on the signal path leading to the OEM interface devices. The only possibility for noise appears at the OEM interface device and on the output of the OEM interface device. This means that the speaker level signal should be routed close to the input of the aftermarket amplifier. (We recommend Unshielded Twisted Pair signal cables for this task.) Then the OEM interface device should be installed at the input of the aftermarket amplifier. If the installation is done correctly, a source impedance of 1000 ohms over a short path of 6” or so will not present a problem.
Conclusions
The specifications of the OEM decks, connected to the OEM interface devices, proved to be as good as a mid priced aftermarket deck. It’s important to correctly install the OEM interface devices, but once in place, the electrical differences are certainly not noticeable.
Car Audio in the 21st Century
By David Navone
The 1990s brought us OEM systems that are integrated into steering wheels, air conditioning systems, warning lights, factory anti-theft systems, etc. Not only that, but the features and benefits of some OEM systems cannot be easily duplicated in the aftermarket. For instance GM’s Driver 1 or Driver 2 preset preferences and steering wheel controls make swapping head units a difficult decision. Also many OEM in-dash decks can play a CD and a cassette. Upgrading such a deck can be a really tough decision. In fact, many OEM head units are being left in the vehicle and aftermarket system designers are interfacing components to the factory deck. There are shops that lament the fact that they can’t upgrade the factory deck, but with many new vehicles, the OEM deck will probably remain in the car until it hits the wrecking yard.
A2TL Tests New OEM Decks
But is replacing a modern deck with an aftermarket deck really an “upgrade?” We’re nearly into 2001 and our Car Sound Forum’s have been alive with questions about interfacing new OEM decks with aftermarket components. Questions about “sacrificing quality by using an OEM head” have prodded our Autosound 2000 Test Labs into examining the electrical differences between aftermarket decks and OEM decks.
For our tests we chose a new Visteon OEM deck, a new Delco OEM deck and a mid-line priced Japanese deck. (We recently reviewed this popular deck in Car Sound). The Visteon deck utilizes a 6-CD changer (CD-6) and the Delco deck is the 4185. We tested the OEM decks with a high quality interface attached in the same manner they would be used in a typical OEM upgrade. We chose Soundgate LOCHVA OEM interface devices for the tests because Rob Putman at Soundgate is our AutoMedia OEM Interface Editor. The tests were our standard specification measuring programs in the Audio Precision System II.
As we all realize, an important spec is the Maximum Undistorted Signal Level, which was 2.5 volts in the Japanese deck, 3.4 volts in the Visteon deck and 3.9 volts in the Delco deck. These readings were taken just under clipping and notice that the distortion figures are 1% or less. Distortion of less than 2% on musical program material is impossible to hear so the 1% spec is excellent.
The useable dynamic range is the difference between the noise floor and the maximum undistorted output. The Japanese deck yielded a specification of 93 dB, the Visteon deck came in at 82 dB and the Delco deck measured 93 dB. The maximum theoretical dynamic range for a 16-bit CD is 96 dB. This means that these specifications are excellent – especially for a car audio component that must contend with road – wind – vehicle noise.
The last specification we measured was the output or source impedance. The Japanese deck measured a respectable 300 ohms. Both the Visteon and Delco decks had very low output impedance measurements (less than one ohm) because of their speaker level outputs, but with the OEM interface devices installed, the specs were a little over 1000 ohms for each deck. Is this a bit high for car audio?
Output Impedance Specs
In Noise Troubleshooting 101, we learned that a high output impedance could be a source for noise. The output impedance can be thought of as a resistance (actually impedance) in series with the signal. For those readers who hate Ohm’s Law, we have can say, “The highest voltage will be developed across the highest resistance.” This means that a high source impedance could allow a higher noise level to be produced across that resistance. This last statement is also the key to the potential problem for noise.
Since the output impedance of the speaker leads of the OEM decks themselves is certainly very low, there will be very low noise levels produced on the signal path leading to the OEM interface devices. The only possibility for noise appears at the OEM interface device and on the output of the OEM interface device. This means that the speaker level signal should be routed close to the input of the aftermarket amplifier. (We recommend Unshielded Twisted Pair signal cables for this task.) Then the OEM interface device should be installed at the input of the aftermarket amplifier. If the installation is done correctly, a source impedance of 1000 ohms over a short path of 6” or so will not present a problem.
Conclusions
The specifications of the OEM decks, connected to the OEM interface devices, proved to be as good as a mid priced aftermarket deck. It’s important to correctly install the OEM interface devices, but once in place, the electrical differences are certainly not noticeable.
Anyhoo back on-topic, like Wayne said we are talking about speakers here.
Not exactly crap competition, it was the 2003 SLAPshow Nationals. He got the highest SQ score with 3rd overall from factory speakers and Tru Technology amplifiers. His name is Jason Ewing, now part of Image Dynamics Elite Sound Team and in the top 5 for IASCA.
Hutch were those McIntosh speakers the same as the one's they sell aftermarket or different??
im pretty sure the aftermarket ones are Vifa/scan speak or Seas (cant remember now haha) and are supposed to be pretty nice units..
im pretty sure the aftermarket ones are Vifa/scan speak or Seas (cant remember now haha) and are supposed to be pretty nice units..
I believe the mcintosh speakers in the B4 etc are actually rebranded clarions.
QUOTE (gooki)
I believe the mcintosh speakers in the B4 etc are actually rebranded clarions.
well... it'd make sense. the big mac headie (mx5000??? cant remember mod no) is a drx-9255!
i've heard the levinson system in a lex and it is, in a word... quite nice for a factory system. whether you chose to tick the "premium sound system" box, or have an equiv custom system fitted for 1/4 the price is up to you...
d
QUOTE (Bobby_Digital)
Hutch were those McIntosh speakers the same as the one's they sell aftermarket or different??
im pretty sure the aftermarket ones are Vifa/scan speak or Seas (cant remember now haha) and are supposed to be pretty nice units..
im pretty sure the aftermarket ones are Vifa/scan speak or Seas (cant remember now haha) and are supposed to be pretty nice units..
Nope, they are made in malaysia speakers that just look like 'normal oem speakers' fron any other car.
Same with the HU, I have a feeling the 'McIntosh' name is being used only - just like how the Momo steering wheel in the Subaru's are not made by Momo. Neither was the older Nardi ones.
Bye,
Mo
no.. i have it under very good authority that the "aftermarket" mac headie is a 9255... and all the mac amps are genuine macintosh....
maybe a different case with the oem stuff they stick in scoobyroos tho..
prolly a bit like sony's carl zeiss lenses (made under licence, not actually made by zeiss) etc...
i was unaware that subaru tillers weren't actually momos! learn something every day...
d
maybe a different case with the oem stuff they stick in scoobyroos tho..
prolly a bit like sony's carl zeiss lenses (made under licence, not actually made by zeiss) etc...
i was unaware that subaru tillers weren't actually momos! learn something every day...
d
The McIntosh system was designed specifically by McIntosh US for the Subaru B4, and now an upgraded 13-speaker version in the new Liberty GT. Without a doubt, it is one of the better factory systems available, but still would be quite easy to match or exceed with a relatively simple aftermarket system.
No matter how glamorous the audio house designing the system, OE and Aftermarket are almost always separate divisions that use separate components. As a general rule, OE speakers are very, very cheap and nasty. Car makers tender these massive contracts and all the OE suppliers scramble to fill the roles, undercutting each other so the high quality companies rarely win. As a trade off for winning the contract, prices are squashed down until the eventual winning supplier is left with, say hypothetically, $5 per speaker to work with. This invariably equates to $5 worth of speaker, and sounds like $5 worth of speaker.
To answer your question, I think you should definitely get good aftermarket speakers. No OE speaker should ever be purchased, and for $600, you've got excellent options.
No matter how glamorous the audio house designing the system, OE and Aftermarket are almost always separate divisions that use separate components. As a general rule, OE speakers are very, very cheap and nasty. Car makers tender these massive contracts and all the OE suppliers scramble to fill the roles, undercutting each other so the high quality companies rarely win. As a trade off for winning the contract, prices are squashed down until the eventual winning supplier is left with, say hypothetically, $5 per speaker to work with. This invariably equates to $5 worth of speaker, and sounds like $5 worth of speaker.
To answer your question, I think you should definitely get good aftermarket speakers. No OE speaker should ever be purchased, and for $600, you've got excellent options.
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