i'm starting to install a 4-way front stage comprising of Morel HCW8, Hybird 6.5", CDM54 Midrange and MT2 tweeter. I know there is a overlapping of frequencies but i want to try and get them running a full range from 35hz to 22Khz, the HCW8 willl be running off a LRx1.400, the 6.5" and the MT2 are running off the standard crossover and the CDM54 can be run off that to or should i get custom crossovers?

in theory, i'd suggest dividing the bandwidths into something around:

HCW8 35~100Hz
Hybrid6 100~800Hz
CDM54 800Hz~2kHz
MT2 2kHz upwards

i think if you want the CDM54's to really shine and bring out the vocals, you won't want them mixing with the 6.5s and tweets or else you may experience a loss in clarity and pinpoint imaging.

so the only good way to do that is to have a suitable xover to divide the spectrum into the appropriate bandwidths. running fully active would the most straight forward DIY approach. you may need assistance from a pro for a passive xover network (sorry, not sure on your own skills/knowledge) especially one featuring high quality passive components. mind you, a custom top notch passive xover (eg: like those produced by audio art & tech in WA) can cost 4-figures. :eek:

IF the impedence of the CDM54 is the same as the hybrid6 and similar sensitivity/power handling, you could try using the passive xover between this and the tweeter. you would HP them at around 800Hz or so. then you need to bandpass the hybrid6.

hmm, what are you prepared to do? is running fully active an option or how many channels do you have to play with?

Custom passive 4 way? Expensive.

But you're talking about a monoblock amp running the 8" - do you have one or two speakers, and are they running as subs up back, or low mid-bass (in the doors somehow?).

What standard crossover are you talking about? 2 way Hybrid? You won't be able to simply add a 3rd speaker in the middle...... it just won't work like that

i think a 3way setup will me much more appropriate..

Shinycar, thats roughly what i was thinking for bandwidths, the CDM54 has the same ratings as the 6" so using the passive Xover would be ok. how do u run active crossovers?
Dasherhalo, it's not as expensive as u think, i've got most of it 2nd hand. true the 1.400 is a monoblock but it does have 2 speaker connections, the 8's will be up front and a 15" in the boot.

if you use two sets of speakers on the the passive crossover, you will change the impedence seen by the x-over thereby changing the crossover point, which wouldnt be too good an idea.....well thats what i figure anyway(correct me if i'm wrong)

active means ditching the passive crossovers, and using the inbuilt crossovers of your amps/external eqs/deck etc, to tailor the crossover point to what you need

i'd raise my hand and join the forget the 4 ways route (the amount of drivers may also compromise driver placement), and perhaps ditch the 6.5s so you have 8,4,1 as more like a regular 3way setup

ok so if i go active only the 1.400 has interal Xovers, so i would need to get either a new amp, HU or EQ. i'm making a 4-way system coz its different, to many people are goin 3-way, i want to do something different.

I meant a 4 way custom passive crossover would be expensive, not all your gear.

I still don't entirely follow: which amps are going to power which speakers? You've got one LRx, or two?

ok i have 2 lrx1.400's, one for the 2x8" and 1 for the 15", i also have a 2 channel audison VR203 which has no crossovers. The 203 can run 6"and MT2 using a passive crossover and the 4" mid can run off the HU

Well i would have to join everyone esle with the "dicth the 4-ways" advise, but i see where your going. What i would advise is to change from tha 203 to an amp with a x/o on the input rca's and x/o on the output rca's like what is given on the (keeping in with the second hand idea) PG ZX and Ti range of amps (suggested due to the fact i have set up my own system with those amps).

So you understand what im saying you could run your 4" & Tweet off a 2 channel using the passive crossover, hp them on the amp at the frequency you want the 4's hp (creating a bp) and the 6's lp. Set the output rca's to a lp signal so the next amp connected u could set the amps in the same way (hp input to a lp output creating another bp for the 6's). Then from tha output into your last amp and your set. Now just hp or use a subsonic filter to bp the 8". Now your done and all speakers are playing from the 1 set of outputs from tha h/u, just a matter of tunning your amps correctly.

I will be running a semi-active 3way system in my car, but i will be using my PG eq232 (eq) so i have more control over the signal and sensitivity from the drivers.

There are other ways of doing it using active x/o's, with/without using the passive x/o you already got. Just depends on how much more your willing to spend in money time and effort. It won't be easy, but will be a unique system.

Evan

thats some good ideas, thanks evan, i talked to the guys at Maroochy car sound today and they said that using a electric active crossover like the Fusion FX-50 would be the easiest way to go.

All i have to do is bp the 8" using the 1.400, buy a 4 channel amp (to run the 6's and 4's) with a xover hp@100hz, connect the 4 channel and the 203 to the electric crossover and use it it work out the crossover bands and Bob's your Uncle (I hope)

You cant run teh 6.5inch and tweeter off the passive crosser. because when u put the midrange driver in there it will play the same frequencies... that will not work at all.

Only way to do it, would be to run the passive crossover for the midrange and tweeter. The passive crossover would have a low pass at say 3000hz and a highpass at 3000hz. The tweeter would connect to the highpass so it will play from 3000hz up. The midrange would be connected to the woofer output so it plays from 0-3000hz BUT. u'd then use a 2 channel amp that has a highpass at say 800hz. Now the midrange is playing from 800hz to 3000hz, and the tweeter from 3000hz up.

Your current 2 channel amp would be left to power the 6.5inch drivers from 100hz to 800hz. However this would be very difficult to run unless ur amp has crossovers. Again i woudl suggest a new amp. Maybe look into a 4 channel audison, that has al the crossovers, this way it can run the mid range and tweeter off 2 channels and the 6.5inchs off the other.

Then the 8inch woofers u'd run like subs off the 1.400 amp. Low pass them at around 100hz, and put the subsonic filter on to stop them from playing the really deep stuff.

You could go fully passive aswell. Check out Morel they have a 3way passive crossover, that comes with the new Elate 3ways. Use these crossovers and run the 6.5inch off the woofers, the mid and tweeters off the respective channels. This crossover is 100% designed for these midrange and tweeters so it will be near perfect.

I would run the 3 way crossover off ur front rca's as u might have highpass on ur headunit, so u can select teh 6.5's to play from 100hz up instead of fulrange as u have the 8inch woofers.

I'd run the amp that is powering the 8's off the sub rca output. SO when u turn the sub up on the headunit, the sub gets louder and the 8inch woofers get louder as well. This would work out good as it wil be turning up the rumble bass from yoru 15 as well as the tight bass from your 8's at the same time. Then on the amps for the 8's i'd have it low passed at 100hz, and the 15inch low passed at 50hz. That way the dont play the same frequencies, even though they are running off the same rca's.

Anothing thing, is how the f*** will u install all these in the front of your car??? LOOOL. You want the drivers as far forward as possible, which will be impossible with both a 8inch and 6.5inch driver, as only 1 of them can get the best spot in teh door.

Maybe put the 8inch woofers in the door. the 6.5inch woofers in the kicks. Then put the Midrange on the upper door, like in the stock position depending what car. Then put the tweeters on on the A pillars.

It seem there is many ways to setup the frequency bands. I'm trying to find the one that is inexpensive and easy as i want to do this all myself.

As for the positioning of the speakers, i can't do kick panels as on the passenger side is the cars ECU and well i have size 14 feet so i need all the room i can get for driving. this i roughly what i plan to do.

Red=8"
white=6"
Black=4" although if there is no room left i'll have to put them in the factory position which is on the dash firing up
The tweeter is also mounted on the dash firing up. i'll get some pics of the dash and tweeter placement

Too cramped in my opinion the nearest side speaker will be firing directly at you and the stage will be dragged to the near side.

Those circles also dont represent the exact size of the drivers. Once u take into account the grills, build out of the trims etc, they bottom circle will be more like the 6.5inch woofer.

Only way you could get that to work is to get 100% rebuilt trims. Then get it all covered in vinyl. U would be able to fit all 3 drivers easily in the doors like that with custom trims. Dont even bother making pods that attach to the door as it will stick out wayyyy to far.

I tend to agree with the others.

Drop the 6.5' they're not doing anything the 8's can't do + that way you can get your speakers closer together which should be a good thing.

I would recomend aiming to run...
..the 8's from 0-(250-280)
..the 4's from 250-3500
..the tweets 3500+

I know it's cool to be different but this is a SQ forum and the advice people are giving is there to help you get the most out of what you've got.

100% rebuilt trims would be way to expensive unless i could get a audio shop to sponsor me but thats highly unlikely. i don't think the speakers will stick out to much they have a very swallow mount depth, the 8" is only 67mm deep but i see what u mean, its starting to get alot more complicated and expensive.

I'm still not getting this - maybe I should stop drinking! :wink:

Isn't the LRx1.400 a mono amp? You're going to put 2 8's in the front doors, off a mono signal? They might be playing low, but not THAT low: I'm sure it's going to stuff up your stereo signal something shocking?

Are the LRx.1400 class a/b amps? ie, full range? If so, why not........
Get the passive 3 way crossovers from Morel as sugested above. Ditch either the 8's or the 6's and set up a 3 way front stage using them and BOTH of the LRx.1400's (one per side).

You could then possibly bridge the existing amp to run the sub(s), or just get a new amp.

Apologies if I've missed something obvious here...........

dont forget about heavy, sagging, lots of sd needing doors !

If he's going with 4ways, the 8's would be playign from 150hz down at the very highest. At 150hz, its directional like you could tell if its coming from the subs or upfront.

However, the difference between the left and right channel below 150hz, isn't very great, so the difference in SQ would be very very little. Ive yet to hear a song that has the kick drum 100% on one side of the channel, some somes have the bass guitar but usually that would be played by the sub anyway.

It's compromise going with a mono sub to begin with, but teh difference with stereo subs is very very minimal. Running the 8's mono the difference would be greater but still low enough to be able to run them mono.

I would have thought "risky", at best, though you aren't going to know until you try....... and carve up your door trims!

Guess you could always try and then buy more amps if it's awful.

I still like my suggestion!

gooki i know u guys are more experienced then me and i thank you all for the advice. I'm going to give it a go, if it doesn't work i can always do a 3-way but atleast i have tried it, plus i get to play with some nice gear :hehe:

this is for u dasherhalo see there are 2 speaker connections one on either side, so u can run 2 subs.

I'm going to run the frequencies like what shiny car said, i've been told by Maroochy car sound tech guys that it can work so i'll give it a try and if i stuff it i will learn from the experience.

Just so you don't think I'm an idiot...... I *know* there are two speaker terminals, but the signal going to each side won't be "left and right", it will be a mono signal, so you won't be getting the proper stereo program.

You could achieve the same effect by stuffing both wires into a single terminal.

As mentioned above, I'd cut the top end of the 8's off as low as possible, maybe even 80hz, so that the 8's play a very small section of the frequency range.

sorry dasherhalo i didn't mean to say that i thought u were an idiot, the 8's will be run at 100hz and below to the subsonic filter cutoff.

yes, i think this is what audi has in mind.

so you will need an additional 2-channel amp on top of the LRx monobloc and VR 2-channel. i'd use the VR for the mid-tweet via the passive xover, then add someething like an LRx2.250 or 2.500 for the 6.5" drivers.

the 2 speaker channels are internally bridged. there are 2 there simply for ease of wiring.
Sorry if this has alrdy been covered.. but where abouts do you plan on putting these 4 ways?

ok i have decided to go with, 8's running off the 1.400 @ 35-100hz, the 6's and 4's running for a 4.300 passing through a electronic Xover @ 100-800hz and 800-3000hz repectively and the MT2's running off the VR203 also passing throught the electronic crossover @3000-22,000hz

ah, fully active. cool.

Sounds like a plan, just gotta fit the drivers in

I think there's room for an 8 channel amp in there somewhere

yep fully active i hope it all fits :? i think it should, just waiting for the speakers to get delivered, i don't think i'll have enough money for a 8 channel thats crazy :hehe:

Good to see someone pushing the boundaries of acceptable thinking I hop I haven't come across as negative: it's just better to be aware of potential pit-falls before you make irrevocable decisions!

Before you write off the idea of an 8 channel, the nice young man with the above post is actually selling one of the sweetest amps around which just happens *cough* to be an 8 channel! ultim8DTM5's for sale thread

I think he's got $800 on it at the moment? RRP was some thing ridiculous (about $2.5K). How much is your Audison 4.300 going to cost?

You could sell the VR203, put the funds towards this...... just think of the configuration possibilities! The built in crossovers of that amp are very flexible, you might not even need an external crossover?

More food for thought.........

yum food, can never get enough, yes a 8 channel would be nice, alot less compicated but the money factor is the problem, i still gotta buy a 15" sub and HU plus i just bought a beach buggy and there is money going everywhere and being a apprentice doesn't help either oh that have a real paying job

If you have the 8"s running from 35-100hz, then what is the point of getting a 15" sub?

Technically with a 15" sub, you would have a 5 way setup..

Honestly, if you wanted to use a 15" sub, I would ditch the 6.5"s, run a more traditional arrangement, with the 15" up to 60-80hz, then the 8"s up to 300hz and then the 4" up to 3khz or whatever. I'm assuming you don't have dome mids..

i'm using the 15 so the sound stage isn't all at the front, the 4" is morels soft dome mid.