I have a range of peerless 8 ohm speakers i want to install in my car ane i need a xover for them. Who can i talk to about making such a beast for me and not going to charge me through the nose. I am looking for quality components tho. I have a peerless 8", 6.5", 4" and tweet as front stage and a 6.5' and tweet as the rear. Depending on the amp i was thinking that just left and rite would be the way to go. Any ideas?

y do u want one custom made? y not just buy one off the shelf as such?

Sometimes off the shelf don't have the necessary roll-offs that one would like to possess.

I know Yanddy@Audioart in Perth makes some pretty ones however I don't think they would fall within your price range.

what about a 4 way active xover, might work out alot cheeper

I wasnt looking for something pretty but with what i paid for the speakers im looking for quality stuff. One main problem is that all the speakers are 8ohm speakers.

yea the audioart crossovers have to be seen and heard, they are absolutely amazing...but at $4000 what do you expect :hehe:

Just want to chime in on the subject of custom xovers...while I do not know how to design/make one I can say this with certain authority:

1. The best custom xover is the one tailored to your system and car. Meaning your component characteristics, how they perform, etc. plus the acoustic response of your car interior. This can be nitpicking, but it has been said that changing from normal velour trim to leather trim can affect the sound!

2. Once a custom set of xovers is made, it is tailored just for that set of components and vehicle. If you change components and/or car, then you gotta have another set made. If you strive for sonic perfection, that is.

3. Custom xovers are expensive because of the components required to make a set (components such as Jensen coils, Auricap or Mundorf capacitors, to name a few) and whether you want to show them off (acrylic plate with beautifully finished screws on top of the components, custom made circuit boards, etc.) or have them hidden. Not to mention the hard work that goes into making the set.

4. It takes time. The installer (or whoever is doing the work) must critically analyse your car interior and explore the components' abilities (speakers, amps, even HU) using whatever tools at his disposal. Years of tuning experience plays a major role in designing custom xovers, so I won't be surprised if the charge is pretty high.

Off course there are other points to consider, but the bottom line is: it is expensive and time consuming. But to some people, the reward is great: your components can shine and show their true potentials, they can reproduce sounds that are "analogue" in characteristics, as opposed to "digital" reproductions.

That is why i prefer going active as I can change the settings on the fly, and if I change components or move them to a new car I don't need to worry about xover modifications. The downside to going full active is that, depending on your application, you may require several amplifiers to do the job, meaning more audio components installed.

Cheers,

Bon

I think Yanddy's passive crossover start from the $1k mark. Although considered entry-level, it is still be a big step up from any stock passive. I gave Yanddy a visit last week while he just finished building a custom passive crossover (left side) for a Civic sedan with Eton Discovery components. He showed me a demo by installing the custom passive on the left side and retained the stock eton passive on the right side and played some music and constantly fading the volume left and right.

And the difference is huge. The custom passive gives the music so much more detail. The top end has more clarity and revealing, and the mid-bass is so much smoother and accurate.

A custom 3 way passive can be quite expensive but in my opinion, it is well worth it.

It would be interesting to see if you could get away with a simple set of 6dB xover/filters for those speakers.

Ie.
Coil to LP the 8
Cap to HP the woofer then utilise it's natural roll off so no LP is required.
Cap to HP tweeter.

I was looking moreso at the last option i think. Can anybody reccomend what i should use for these speakers and what ohms i would be left with at my amp?

UDL's:
i can build you one if you like... i wouldn't charge much for labour, but you'll need to cough up for the components.

as for gooki's suggestion, i see a few problems:
1 the woofer will still play at the higher frequencies, quite well infact, the problem wiht this, is that you'll have a transition problenm between then drivers where the frequencies overlap.

BPing the midrange driver will introduce an extra 90 degree phase shift.

i'd recommend:
12db Lp for the 8
12 db BP for the woofer
12 db hp for the tweeter

a 12db/oct passive Xover adds 180degree phase shift, the woofer will be 360 degrees out, but that jsut means you reverse the polarity, and all drives will be in phase!
this requires a reasonable amount of components,
8 caps, 8 coils.

the BEST option woudl be a 24db/oct setup, but that will double the required number of components.


there are heaps of things you can add to a passive Xover, including attenuation, impedance shift correction and notch filters, but they will make it overly complex, and expensive for a minimal gain.

Mr Bob is correct with 6dB octave filters you will suffer phase issues but this can be overcome with various wiring configerations.

First this I would do is read here:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/cross6db.asp

My starting point recomendations would be:
Ditch either the 6.5's or the 8's from your front stage. I realy can't see any reason to have a 4 way front stage.

So lets say you choose:
Front: 8, 4, Tweet
Rear: 6.5, Tweet

I would buy a 4 channel amp and wire up like so:

Channels 1+2 (L+R) power the 8's lowpassed at approx 220 htz with amps built in xover (12dB/Octave)

Channels 3+4 (L+R) power your front 4's + tweets. Amps internal xover (12dB/Octave) is set to approx 250htz, the 4 utilises it's natural rolloff, tweeter has an inline cap (3.9 microfarad) givig it a 6dB/Octave hp at approx 5000htz. Wire the tweeters out of phase in parellel with the 4's.

Headunit rear channels 3+4 power you rear speakers with the same setup as your front 4's+tweeter, except the 6.5 has no highpass. Then fade your headunit mostly to the front so you don't clip the internal amp when hitting max volume.

That means you only have to buy 4x 3.9 microfarad capacitors (one for each tweeter) - couldn't be simplier.

This is in no way an ideal setup but should provide a useable install, and if lucky a very good sounding install.

If you don't want to use cheap caps you can get:

MUNDORF Supreme- High End Capacitors 3.9 microfarad for $34.80 each.

Of if thats a bit rich, MUNDORF Mcap Capacitors 3.9 microfarad for $6.40 each.

www.leda.com.sg

What model are your peerless speakers and I'll get their on/off axis frequiency response charts for you - that should allow you to determine if utilising the mids natural rolloff is a viable option.

that's $34.80 in singapore currency!
how does it convert to AUD?

1 signapore dollar = 90 AU cents (or their abouts).

So prety much 1:1 once you factor in shipping.

I can get the part numbers toomorow hopefully. What problems will i find with having the 8 ohm drivers in my car. I would like to keep all 4 6.5"'s if i can so would they be usefull as a rear? Would the 6.5" be better than the 4" up front? I would prefer to go that way if i can.

You will not have any more problems in running 8ohm drivers than you would if you had 4ohm drivers. You will experience reduced power output from your amp(s) but that is often offset by the higher sensivity of 8ohm drivers.

Yes the 6.5's will be fine. Exactly what speakers do you want to run in the front and rear? ie do you still inted to use the 8's up front?

if you're using ALL 4 ohm drivers...
4ohm tweeter, 4 ohm midrange + 2 8 ohm midbass per side,
then you might be able to purchase something like my Focal utopia 3 way crossover.

contact bill leighton at eastcoast distributors... he was very helpful whenever i've asked for his help!

All my speakers are 8 ohm. The tweets, 6.5's and the 8's the 4's have been sold so now all i need is a system so that i can run the speakers in my car. I was wanting to use a 2 or 4 chan amp. I would prefer to have only left and right in my car and use a 1507 that i have stitting here. Is it possible to use this amp to run this system(2 8ohm tweets, 2 8ohm 6.5's and 1 8ohm 8" per side)

from an electronic perspective, you could grab another pair of 8ohm 8" midbass drivers, and run them off a standard 3 way crossover.

finding room to mount them is another issue entirely!

otherwise
running semi active would be your best bet, a 4channel with 2 channels running the 2 tweeters and 2 midranges (per side) in parallel off a standard 4 ohm crossover.
then use the last 2 channels to run the 8" drivers

i would think that buying another 2 channel amp would be easier and cheaper than making a passive 3 way Xover. it would also take up less room.
you'll need ot LP the 8" drivers, but that shouldnt' be a problem, infact if you LP them, low enough, (under 150Hz) you should get away with running them in mono, (in parallel to 2 channels brided)
that way you'd get the most power from them.

in the end, expensive/large quantites of drivers aer usless unless you want ot spend the money on installing and setting them up.

would i be able to use something to lowpass the 8's and then use them with the standard xover? that would work the same way wouldnt it?

kind of...
what you're asying is:
get normal 4ohm crossover,
wire 2 tweeters and 2 6.5's in parallel to it.
run that setup, in parallel with 1 8" driver.

no you'll need to LP the 8" driver, and HP the crossover setup,
now the tweeters and midranges will have more phase shift than the midbass, but if you use 12db/oct slopes, you can just reverse the polarity on the midbass to bring it back in phase.

So you've got a 2 channel amp.

Another idea would be to hunt down a Phoenix Gold XVR crossover(you should be able to find one second hand for sub $100).

This way you could run your 8's in mono being low passed at approx 120htz and your fronts get high passed at 180htz.

For your fronts wire the 6.5's in parellel with the tweeter which are wired out of phase(+ to - and - to positive) with inline cap on the + tweeter wire.

All this of your two channel amp with your 8ohm drivers.

Total cost around $120

I would offer up my nakamichi PC-200 3 way passive xovers at a good price but they're designed for a much different speaker setup.

gooki:
there's lots of problems with that setup.
how does teh XVR crossover work?
firstly, there's a raesonable gap between 180 and 120Hz,
and how do you get the 8's in mono?
you'd have to bridge the channels, which would mean you'd lose stereo on the 6.5's and tweeters.

by wiring the tweeters in reverse polarity (180 degree shift), you don't actually gain anything in that setup, because the inline cap is a 6db/oct crossover which adds a 90 degree shift, which makes a 270 degree total shift.
the reversed polarity trick only works for 12db/oct crossovers which are 180degree shift! reversing polarity makes a 360/0 degree shift!
it also won't LP the 6.5's so your imaging will be shot and the treble will be muddy.

not to mention i haven't personally seen an XVR for sale

your nakamichi setup would work MUCH better, if only the 8" drivers were 4 ohm (or there was a pair per side like the tweeters and 6.5's

An XVR crossover does the following:

Connect the left + right outputs fo amp to XVR
XVR then dumps out a mono sub channel low passed at 120 odd htz and stero left an right channels high passed 180htz.

No the 60 htz cap isn't that big - the people at phoenix gold know what they're going, from memory the LP on the XVR is 6db/octave and the HP is 12db/octave.

Switching the polarity of the tweeter (when using an inline cap as a hp filter) was recomended to me by New Zealands best speaker designer, I tried it and it works well.

I know my suggestions are not ideal but it's probably the best he can achieve for such little cost.

I dont mind spending 500+ for a good system. what would you build me a system for bob? im realy not fussed as long as it will do the job and isnt going to sting as much as my kit did.

well not an EZ job but can be done in about3 hours if you only need a basic third order Xover. but how can you determine which order is best for you?????? the steeper slope don't always mean sound better So don't get wrong.

Sometime a combination of different slopes for each speaker will make the system sound a lot better. It all will depend on how the acustic of your car response to a certain set of fequency. Sometime calculation alone won't help but your skill will help.

as far as the quality of components is concern, it doesn't mean that best component will make your system sound best. it is the skill of matching the right components to the given acustical environment So don't waste your money on Munduf spreme unless you know what you are dealing with. in some situation a 50 cents Jaycar cap will sound better than Munduf supreme if they were use in the right condition.

Well you will be fine with your speaker. it doesn't really matter what ohm they are. at the end of the day you just need to do the right calculation thats all. I have been putting together 3-6-and8 ohm speakers together in a system before. and all the speakers were driven by a 27 watt per channel amp. So it doesn't matter what you start up with but it is all depend on weather you could use all the things you got at its max efficiency or not.

Whatchutalkinabout???? I've got one, and my friend 1.2 k's up the road has got one, and they're a DAMN fine paperweight!

Actually, UDL, if you wanted to test one of them, I'd be happy to send one to you to trial if you paid the freight. Having said that: it's certainly not the best option, but it may be *an* option..............

well if that's the case, ti sounds like it'll do the job!
a 60hz gap can be pretty big, but at 6db/oct is shouldn't be too bad.

well theoretically reversing the polarity in that situation doens't make a difference, however, i can't account for your car's environment, which might have caused the polarity swap to help!

Well if thats the case why not get a second amp (4 channel) with bandpass xovers so you car run you system fully active?

what such amps would you guys reccomend for this setup.

Also i found out last nite that my eclipse deck can run a 3 way active system(high mid low and subwoofer outs.)

then you're set!
$500 buys you a great 2nd hand 4 channel amp, check out the FS forums and see what you acn find, if you're unsure, just post them up in here and we'll add our opinions!

Will this do? http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/vi...opic.php?t=3295

i was thinking 2 tweest of the first chans. two mids off the second and then the 8's off the last chans.

certainyl would do nicely!

Even tho it only has 4 chan input? im losing the advantage of my deck but it looks as tho this is a good amp for what i need.

umm yeah, it only needs 2 channel sof input actually, because it has built in crossovers.
it you want to use the crossovers in your HU/processor... then you might have issues,

i think the 2ndpair of channels was put there to keep in mind that somone might use 2 channels for rear fill, and they'd want to fade them out!

Hey Benno, how would you go building a custom 3way passive that can handle say 6-700RMS?

George has been putting silly ideas in my head again...

i can do it... but i don't think you'll want to know the price :shock:
100V high end capacitors, 12ga custom coils...
i think we're talking over $50 a piece... possibly over $100, and for a 3 way 12db/oct crossover, you'll need 4 caps, 4 coils.
for 24db/oct... double that!
that's before terminals and circuit boards..
but... (just because the concept is crazy), i'll chuck in labour for free. (not that i'd charge anyone much anyway)

Hmmm maybe on the backburner for a little longer I feel...one crossover would be sufficient jah? No need to split them as I feel it would be rather large

Need even more than that if you plan to bandpass the mid! (probably not a bad idea!) - then there's more bits if you want to do attenuation circuits - notch filters yada yada - you can spend an absolute mint - as for coils the only economical way to do custom ones is to wind your own.. don't know too many people with an accurate "henry"meter!

It's all fun though...

huh?
1 cap + 1 coil for HP, 1 cap 1 coil for LP (different config)
1 HP + 1LP = BP.
i need 1 HP + 1 LP + 1 BP = 2 hp, 2 lp
4 caps, 4 coils...
what've i missed?

i do know someone with an accurate henry meter actually.... (mate of a mate) but chances of borrowing it are pretty slim...
chances of getting him to wind them on his jig are reasonable though...

notch filters and att circuits do make the crossovers horrifically complex.
i don't personally feel that notch filters are of any use... use a friggin EQ!

att circuits do have a use though... but a att circuit for a 700WRMS front stage? wanna knock off 100WRMS? you'd need a huge resistor, (or bank of resistors) and probably heatsinks+fans etc... right?
never personally built an att circuit, but i've got a good idea how to.

oops - thought you meant in total 4 caps and 4 coils in total- not each side (ignore me )

attenuation circuits are good yes... knocking off 100WRms... got watercooling?

we do crazy things in NSW STIK!,

i assumed 2X600-700 but maybe he meant 2X300-350 (600-700 in total?)

can you confirm Pete?

well just incase you decide to get that bored...
50W flameproof resistors

Nah you were right first time, 6-700 each side. Got Headroom?

850wrms per side enough?

@ 4ohm? Then I take my hat off to you Sir, jolly good showing!

roflmao!
horns + 2 X 850WRMS!

850 watts on components is like dropping an atomic bomb on an ant
Because you have 8Ohm speakers the power your amp puts out would be half than what its rated at 4Ohms. 250Rms at 4Ohm would be plenty watts would be plenty (8Ohm drivers would get 125Rms).

What Ohm a speakers is rated at is not a way to tell its sensitivity ratting.

Crossover design is not to be taked lightly. If your serious about it you need someone who knows what there doing. I've learnt from my mistakes and the one thing that you dont do is cut corners, so buying prebuilt passive crossovers would be a waste of both money and sound.

If your interested i could design some crossovers for you but there are a few conditions. Fist you need to tell me what drivers youve got as crossovers and fairly driver specific. Secondly 4 Ways using those drivers would'nt work very well. You need to give me information on your install, where are your drivers going stuff like that ect... What car do you have, How much are you willing to spend on the crossover themselfves. Oh custom crossovers are hard make look pretty. Custom inductors are not nesecary in the majority of cases and certinaly not with Peerless speakers and are not that much cheaper.

If you do want me to do this for you i will do it for FREE if..

1. You assemble and purchase the crossover components yourself, i can tell you where to get them.

2. Do an in-depth review on the sound of the driver for everyone to see on this forum (pics would be cool)

3. Are VERY serious about it I dont want to waste my time.

I've built a couple of systems before but none in a car before, (not until i do mine that is).

As far as crossover topologys go (the way there put together) it really depents on the install. If you have 2 ways in door pods where the drivers are close togehter than a simple 12db an octave would probuably work.

But if your have your woofer in they're stock location and the tweeter's opposite your mirrors then you would need to go elliptic style crossovers to get the best sound, which are something like 60db's an octave. NOTE: Thats pretty good. That would keep the crossover passband (were the drivers sum up) to an absolute minnimum. This is good because as you move the drivers away from each other the frequency response of the crossover passband changes (it can be quite severe). This is one reason most installers use door pods.

If any one else is serious and has the money i would like to try something using EXOTIC driver (e.g Scan-Speak) but it is rather pricey.

Thx
A. Clark