What sort of sound quality can be achieved using high level inputs for an amp or a line level converter say on a BA FORD with the premium sound?

I am looking at doing an install and want to retain the factory 6 stack in dash changer, but run external amps.

Should be fine for a avg to decent setup, it all depends on how much the internal IC amp colors the sound.

There should be no issues with the amp receiving a higher input voltage (which an amped signal is), its mainly an issue with the lower s/n ratio and any eq 'influences' the internal amp gives out.

Some older decks I have found gave a nice response in the pre-outs and a distorted (bass and treble heavy) signal in the high level outs..

Just letting you know.

-Ac

Great thanks. I am planning on running an external 31 band eq and will spend some time RTA'ing the car to try and get it right.

Get a decent converter, like a Navone Engineering unit which has a built-in 1:3 line driver. I couldn't tell any difference between this and a dedicated source with RCA outputs.

not a fan of high level converters
big noise issues down that path
alpine kce 4311 about $70
ba's are a bitch if you pull the head unit out your car wont start (C.A.N. bus system)

Noise issues? Only if you have a crap one. And I don't consider the Alpine unit to be worthwhile, although decent compared to other offerings, it may not be up to task.

In my opinion you cannot go wrong with a Navone unit, although will have to be brought in from the US you can order it through David Navone's website.

hey pyro i have a mould at work to make a panel that sits where the tissue box goes to mount a din h/unit if that interests you

if your factory system is already regarded as premium grade, why bother running an external amp?

depending on the car manufacturer, each manufacturer has different standards on the classification of 'premium car audio'. Volvo s60 premium sound system consists of 13 dynaudio speakers, a 4x50wrms amplifier, and a 8" active subwoofer. now, this is what i call real 'premium car sound'

i dont know much about Ford, there could already be an external amp....whatever you do, dont do something that will make your system sound worse than before.

The navone unit is what Id suggest. Another option is Audio Control products. They are designed to handle the signal form spkr outputs and can handle the power and will have no impeadence issues.
peace
Punky

tokins car did their alpine audi with the alpine ones
the last install i did on a ba was 6x9s in the rear quaters and 6.5 splits with v12 amp and kce 4311x2
i know vdo make a panel to fit where the tissue box
is

High level inputs from factory decks go together with SQ about as much as MP3s do.

there is also a rockford converter
that i saw in freeway car audio

real good

BA falcon premium sound has an amp, and im told all BA falcons have one set of preouts, premium or not.

IF they are there, they arn't your normal RCA type preouts. Although I do believe there is some form of preout going to the factory amp. Finding it will be the problem.

Edit - I can get pics if anyone wants to see the back of one.

yeah, true...

the dealer doesnt even want you to touch the factory audio system. that's the reason why manufacturers put in speakers in weird size and shape and some with unusual connectors.

and i believe they are not RCAs even there are pre-outs.

reference pix of a factory HU

Here's the type of connector they use for OEM CD changer and OEM external amp.

Doesn't seem as complicated as the BA one. Heres some pictures I just took.
video input plug
This is the plug where the factory SatNav would hook upto, or the Blau adaptor. Accepts RGB input.

bottom
Bottom of the unit

back
Back of the unit

Since everything is integrated, I can't tell you what everything is, except for the round plug at the back, which is the antenna lead. It's one complicated unit. There are outputs to go to the various climate control things, aswell as the factory amplifier, and body control module. Good luck finding what the preout is there . The only other option would be to go to the amp end, and through a process of elimination, work out what the inputs are.

Complex ehh! Wouldn't wanna go breaking one of those in a hurry.

i hate those dash that has everything integrated all together....with those systems, you cant even change the HU unless you dismantle the whole dash and spend hundred bucks to custom make a trim for the HU. My sister's renault clio is also like that...

Can't be done since the screen displays other information besides the headunit related things.
Although it is fairly easy to add a headunit to these cars with only a slight bit of modification, but you lose all the goodies like that clean look, and the steering wheel controls.

I thought the Volvos were using Alpine hu and Clarion speakers for stock? Maybe they've changed...but man how wicked would it be to have Dyns as stock speaker!!

hmmm, i dont know about the alpine hu, my s40 stock hu was a mitshibishi, but mine was old 1998 model. volvo got into an agreement with dynaudio in the past 2-3 years.

They dont put dynaudio into every car, but from what i know of, they are standard equipments on c70, s80, S60R and V70R.

If you go and test drive S60R, remember to bring your favourite CD to test out the system.

I take that as a challange.

Does that mean you dont think i can build an SQ winning car with a factory headunit and line level convertor?

I wanted to leave that comment alone for as long as possible

i remember seeing on a website, perhaps fordmods.com, a pinout for the RCA output of the BA headunit. maybe im tripping and it was AU, but ill find a link if anyone wants...

ok, whoops.. it was for inputs :/

heres the link - it requires membership

http://www.fordmods.com/phpBB2/documents.php?doc=56

That looks like the go, will even allow remote sub gain control.

Now who sells Audio Control in Australia

Well that would depend on what your competition is running wouldn't it but why do you think people spend thousands on decks such as Denon, McIntosh, etc put it this way what do you think will be superior the same system with one of these decks or a factory deck and a linelevel converter?

The main downfall of factory decks is the purity of the signal. A high quality line level converter corrects this, basically because amongst other things the signal is cleaned up before the point of distortion or clipping. Remember that most have a built-in line driver which also has a significant bearing.

If the source is pure before it hits the amplifiers that is all that matters.

Why do people pay thousands for decks? I dunno, why do people pay thousands for cables? Oh theres a thread on that already

I think you should limit your opinion to that which you are qualified on. I went pretty far into the designs and tech writings of David Navone and Richard Clark on this topic when contemplating LLC's for my own car. I personally find no audible difference between a top-shelf LLC + OEM deck and an aftermarket source, and would not hesitate in recommending them.

Pyroay: have you looked into other adapters? I know my a/d/s/ (which is for sale ) has an open wiring split at one end and a DIN-plug at the other for the amp connection. Basically you solder into the factory wiring harness and plug into the amp.

Please do you really think a OEM deck is going to reproduce the signal at the same quality as one of the above mentioned and no I have no idea why people would spend thousands on an RCA either.

OEM deck by itself? No.
OEM deck + quality LLC? Yes!

I think you need to look past the bullcrap, marketing and pricetags and listen to what's watt.

"Quality" is something very subjective, piss-weak on-board amplifiers and other things resulting in discolourations of the signal, either good or bad depending on what you think you hear as opposed to what you actually are hearing.

Anyways, you made a huge generalisation before regarding LLCs in the same boat as MP3s- flagship decks or not I don't think it would sound any worse than the package together.

What you must remember is that you'll never encounter a 'pure' source, I've heard flagships that don't sound any different to $400 decks, and I've heard $600 decks that sound superior to $3000 decks (merely for the fact that I didn't own either and didn't have to justify the cost to myself)

Psychoacoustics is a well-documented affliction that affects everyone. You cannot hide from it.

I at least have done my own testing and research in the matter regarding this, and I don't need a salesman or advertisement to tell me what I'm going to hear.

I am interested in some pics and information on your unit.
The audiocontrol one looks great and allows me to hook up 6 line levels, ie fronts, rear and sub which is what i'm looking for.

I'm open to consider others if they will do the same job.


Who sells Audio Control in Victoria?

Can your email take large attachments? (<4mb)

I have access to them Pyro
peace
Punky

it is highly possible!!

many oem headunits have extremely clean output, and sometimes alot cleaner than a few hundred bucks aftermarket HU, this includes my HU by Mitsubishi. The level of my factory German made Nokia tweeters (yes, it's Nokia, and no, i do not have a handsfree system)was set at a superb level such that it is high yet never hurts my ears.

most oem hu's have simple controls like fade, balance, bass and treble....many of them definitely sound alot better than an unprofessionally tuned $2000 Alpine F1 or HXD2.

if anyone thinks that oem HU is never as good as an aftermarket HU, we will end up with a 10 page long discussion like the 'RCA cable thread'. I guess when Ford marketed the sound system as 'premium', there must be a reason for it, it wasnt labelled that way for no reason. Aftermarket equipment does not equal to good quality, it simply means ease of system expansion, and you also get the fun of stripping down everything and rebuilding them again. With oem stuff, it's all about bolt-on plug and play, yes you do lose a bit of fun, but the quality can easily outperform any SQ competitors outthere. Also, many cars in the market are already adequately sound deadened, ls430 is one good example, you wont even notice that the engine is turned on when inside the cabin, combine that with a complete system by Mark Levinson, what do you think? If the SQ judge can blindfold judge the car, I think it will definitely get a high score.

You've got to be kidding theres been a thread on OEM so called "Premium Systems" already I suggest you read even those by reputable companys are still garbage.

And I seem to remember most of your comments regarding such systems are based on what you think rather than what you actually listen to!

I'm sorry having heard a ford premium system I can say I was not impressed.

errr.....i cannot comment on ford, i believe its cars are not targetted at the 'high lifestyle' type of people, theoretically Ford would not put a 4000 dollar system into a 40,000 dollar car. Their premium quality could be worse or better than a basic system you find on a luxury car, but i do not know.

i can only comment on a s60r and a lexus ls430, however, all i can say is good or bad, i am not an audiophile who can use descriptive metaphors to describe sound...

correct, it was labled that way to make money for ford; basic system is average at best. upgrade to 'premium' cost ford very little, charge the customer an enourmous mark up. Customer thinks they have a 'premium' sound system; ford makes more money; it's a win-win for the uninitiated.

i was quite impressed with fords premium system, for a stocky it's damn good i thought.

and compared to holdens premium system well......

sorry was in a bit of a hurry, the premium system is great for a factory system (heard it in the ba fairlane). But the stereo upgrade it there for people who want a better system but don't have the inclination to go aftermarket. the cash you pay to go 'premium' could be better spent on comnponents you really like, rather than the components ford decide you like.
Ultimately, ford would not offer the premium upgrade if there wasn't money to be made on it. sorry fir the cynicism.

Bear in mind, I'm installing Focal K2, 3 way front stage, 3 x Earthquake 10" subs and a number of quality amps, so the only thing i'm talking about leaving as part of the "Premium Sound" is the headunit and rear fill.

I'm not planning to just drive around with it as it is so bagging the system that comes in them as not sounding good is not a fair comparison, i'm only talking headunit here.

Yes but compared to a very basic aftermarket system it is woefull why buy all that nice gear and run it of a stock headunit theres no point you might as well get lower range stuff your final output is only going to be as good as your source and regardless what you think an OEM headunit does not compare to a quality aftermarket one. Someone should do an experiment to prove an OEM headunit is just as good before you can claim this get an Occiliscope, and I mean a good computer controlled one (someone must have access to this gear on here) play a sample from a Denon/Nakamachi/etc a mid range alpine/clarion/pioneer and an OEM deck with one of those Navone High level converters and see which puts out a signal closest to the original waveform. If the OEM is equal or superior to the others I'll jump in dog turd and eat my boots.

Not sure you would need to do that, although it may be amusing for those watching.

I have decided to go with a line level convertor for this system and in my other car i have a good quality headunit with 4 volt preouts, and exactly the same amps, so when i'm done i'll hop from one car to the other (they are both falcons) and tell you if there is any difference.

At then end of the day if it doesn't sound like a top quality signal being suppied i can always add an aftermarket source unit and i dont loose much.

i suppose it depends if you have these "Golden Ears" everyone wants :roll:

Not sure wheather i have them presently, but i have a set on back order, should arrive later in the year!!!

You really have turned into MR ATTITUDE havn't you. Instead of bagging other people and getting on some kinda high horse trying to put down other peoples ideas. Why don't you just backoff with your comments, and lose the attitude. Have YOU worked with a BA headunit before? Have YOU used it with any success, or failure. My moneys on NO!


Pyroay, I'd seriously look into what kind of input the factory amp is getting. It's just a matter of getting the equipment to do it. And once you find out if there is infact a preout going to the amp, let me know what wires they are so I can use them

Any thoughts about running a couple of RCA's off before the factory HU amp?

probably be fairly easy to find the right points.... (if you can actually get the HU out and open..)

I have not bagged anyone and nor have I made personal attacks on anyone either if you think I'm putting other peoples ideas down then so be it I am simply saying if you are going to may claims like this give us some proof rather than saying it just is. And yes I've had a listen to a BA Ford Premium system and I was not impressed.

you are listening to the entire system there, and not just the head unit. If you want to be able to say that it will sound garbage, then you would have to audition the Premium HU back to back against another HU with the same speakers etc being used. Otherwise saying the factory system sounds crap isnt really any use in this discussion.

I have a feeling that you wouldnt be able to pick the difference between the premium HU output and a mid priced aftermarket HU, and given the amount of buggering around that you would go through in the BA its a perfectly valid way to go