ok we all know that power is important in selecting an amplifier, the more the better - less distortion and more head room .. great !

if true rms power and input sensitivity are the same, what else will make an expensive amplifier truely sound better than a cheapie ?

i'm wonder what you all noticed when upgrading your previous amp to a newer more expensive amp of the same power rating ?

at the same volume, same crossover settings, could a 2x50 zapco/pg/xtant sound better than a 4x50 (running on 2 channels) jaycar response ? i understand that the higher end amps are often under-rated .. for example the jaycar amp could be measured at 14.x volts while the xtant/zapco/tru at 12 ..

anyway u get the idea ..

we were just talking about cables and a lot of articles have been posted suggesting that build quality is more important in RCAs so they have a good life span and the speaker cables - well .. there aint much difference between 'standard' and 'esoteric' .. (hope that's right)

i hope that the same conclusion comes from amplifiers ..

i'm sure so many of u have upgraded their amplifiers while possibly keeping the power the same or possibly downgrading the power while 'upgrading' the brand ?

it's so tempting to buy a high-end amp but i wonder if it's really worth the money .. eg. it's said that THDs below a certain percentage are indistinguishable (sp?) .. perhaps someone has borrowed their mate's 2x150 response amp and plugged that into their system to compare with their 2x75w audison/alpine/pg and has noticed a difference ..

from my limited experience i believe measured rms power is the most important in deciding sound quality, but have no experience to back this up. more power eg. 150w will provide less distortion and more headroom than a more expensive (pg,audison,alpine,xtant,whatever) 2x80 or 2x50 .. ??

tough questions i know but i'd rather hear it from here than a sales person what are your views on this ????

i know that a $329 2x150w response is a powerful amp, but it's considered to be very AVERAGE in terms of SQ. the power's there, all 150w of it .. but the SQ might not be .. WHERE DID IT GO ? and can you hear the difference ? (some readers who have read about the Richard Clark challenge may be able to provide some further interesting input here .. sure the specs of a higher end may be better (thd, slew, seperation), but is the difference really audible ?

Interms of sound quality, I think many amplofiers have sneaky ways of publishing their specs:
eg. frequency response on a full-range amplifier is usually 20-20kHz, but many companies can write this by documenting a [-3dB,+0dB] rating after it. This means that the amp is only capable of putting half the SPL out at these certain frequencies (usually bottom end)

Secondly, a lot of amp don't publish their damping factor these days ie. the amp could pump out midbass really well, but the sound is "laggy" or muddy when played in certain situations..

Anyway thats my two cents

There can be a big difference in soud quality of amplifiers. Some time ago, my alpine 3527 4 channel amp, that runs my front tweets and rear fills broke down, so while it was out of the car getting fixxed, I thru in a jaycar 4 x 50 watter blue amp.

That amp came out the next day. it sounded dreadful. Sibulance, narrower sound stage, noise, you name it, it was bad.

I found it better to not have any music in my car at all rather than listen to that crap.

And I sold the jaycar amp which pretty much covered the repair bill on the alpine!

In my experience and (fairly well educated) opinion, not if all things are equal, and not in daily use... there are very certain situations where the amps construction may make a difference (driving into Quad ESL's for instance) but in general use, no, hence why RC is happy enough to offer $10k to anyone who can spot the difference between amps when all other variables are removed...

But there are plenty of people, both here, and around the world, who trust in their ears over anything else, flawed as that logic may be, and they truly beleive they can hear a difference...

In short, if you beleive in testing and scientific methodology, and understand the principles behind the RC challenge, then no, you dont beleive in amp sound... on the other hand, if you beleive in the infallibility of the human ear, and beleive that the ear can hear things that man, with all of his advanced science (some of which was used to record the source in the first place), cannot pick up, or if you refuse to accept scientific tests as fact, then yes, you'll probably beleive in amp sound...

Because as we all know, to your eyes the world looks flat, so it must be flat, and damn the scientific proof to the contrary :wink:

However, even if SQ is not a consideration, there are plenty of reasons to buy high end amps... build quality, reliability, appreciation of nice things... i'm a salesman, and i love nice things (mmm, Zapco/TRU/McIntosh/Genesis) and i love helping other people get nice things... but when they buy nice amps i make them aware they arent buying 'better SQ', what they ARE buying is more power(normally), better aesthetics, and superb build quality, all of which are just as much of a reason to plonk out some extra cash...

audible, interesting as the alpine u mentioned appears to be 4x30wrms

blackrazor, as a salesperson thanks for ur honesty. i agree that build quality and aesthetics are definately there in the higher end amps and often their features (perhaps input sensitivity) and technology, quality of materials is better and is obviously worth the $$$ for many. however what would u consider to be some cheaper brands that play almost just as well as a zapco/tru/mcintosh thru to good speakers (boston, focal, mbq, diamond) etc ?

do you get jaycar response amps over there blackrazor and have u had time to plug one in and have a listen ? i'd also be interested to hear how the huge power (2x150) and therefore less distortion and more headroom may compensate for the lacking features ? user 'audible' obviously did not especially like the 4x50wrms response compared with the 4x30wrms alpine !!!! im wondering if other users had a similar result ?

by the way, has anyone ever come across GOOD Jaycar amp specs including perhaps a birthsheet, response graphs etc ???

No sir, we do not...

As a general rule, buy an amp on reliability and power, but be aware that for most people, 20-30w of good clean power is all they need, and anything above that is just headroom on a daily basis... also be aware that it takes 10x the power to get double the perceivable volume, so the difference between a 75w and a 150w amp may not be as huge as you think, you're talking a theoretical 3dB of volume gain, which is decent but certainly not earth shattering...

Heres some tips for buying amps :
1) Figure out how much power you need to drive your speakers... for daily playback in a high-passed system, 95% of people wont need more than 50w per speaker, but extra is always nice.
2) How important is reliability, backup an support, and construction to you? If they are, then you might be better going for a 75w name quality brand rather than a 120w non-name brand (there are exceptions of course)
3) Are aesthetics important? If so, name brand.

Always buy your amp to suit your speakers, not the other way around. But most importantly, above 50w per channel for speakers, you are unlikely to use the extra power on many occasions, so rather than coughing extra for a 200w amp that you'll use the extra power once in a blue moon, put your money down on something with less power, that will give you flawless, troublefree operation for its lifetime...

My thoughts on what the most significant differences between cheap as chips amps and high end audiophile amps.

1) Power supply - a stable power supply system provides a constant accurate audio reproduction.

2) Crossover components (if you use them).

3) Stero seperation - dual monoblocks are going to have a much better stero seperation than a standard 2 channel.

4) Quality of components and amp design - which results in better noise reduction and a more pure sound.

I dont think theres even slightly as much difference between the two as people make out, after all 60dB of seperation is all you need for it to be unnoticable... but then again, monoblocks are nice, and its wanky to tell people you have near-infinite stereo seperation :wink:

where's you get the 60db figure from? I thought it was at that level the signal could be precived as stero not the auidable limit.

PS turn on MSN I had a favour to ask.

60dB (give or take a couple dB) is the max stereo seperation that will provide an audible benefit on music... 90dB wont sound sound any better on everyday music than 60dB will, 50dB will be audibly worse however.

Its one of those figures that high end amp companies like to quote (and with good reason, it takes some very well thought out and well designed construction to get high levels of stereo seperation), but beyond a point it is inaudible in real world applications and can be proven to be so...

Having high stereo seperation is usually a sign of a good amp however

Wouldn't the quality of an amp come down to its ability to reproduce the signal as exactly as possible at a higher voltage? I find it had to believe that a Zapco or Tru tech amp is not going to be vastly superior to a jaycar or sony at this.

Blackrazor, don't make me snatch that soapbox from under you

I dont mean to rain on anyones parade or get into an argument, i am sure we all have educated opinions on certain issues and things in this being the difference that a different grade amplifier can make your sound.

Despite what is being discussed here previous to my post there is no way in this world that a Jaycar amp can have the same output characteristics as some of the more reputable brands.

Basically a more expensive amplifier uses better components has a better build quality, and also has higher signal to noise ratio, damping factor and stereo separation. But what is also important is the input filtering stages and output filtering stages which determine how the input signal will be on the output stage ie. speakers or subwoofers.

The cheaper end amplifiers use cheaper components and less of them so although the output signal measured on a CRO might look similar to an amp of higher quality have you considered the actual signal purity that the amp delivers? What about its noise rejection capabilities? What about the slope on the crossover frequencies?

I agree that looking at the output signal on measuring equipment such as a CRO from a cheap ass amp and an expensive amp yields no great differences as the output is a pure sinewave, but have you considered the way an amp actually sounds to an ear? I agree also that peoples ears are not the same and what sounds good to me may sound bad to you, then why is it that manufacturers build amps worth thousands of dollars. Yes they do make the same power as your average joblow monoblock, but why is it that when the amplifiers get rated, they get rated by being installed in a car or a certain type of environment and then they get ear tested after they have been on the bench to see whether they can make their claimed RMS value?

So sorry to rain on your parade Blackrazor but i am an electronics engineer by trade and i can tell you when i test amps on benches they all have similar output charactristics on my test bench as you have stated and you are correct to an extent. But you are completely WRONG when you tell people that a cheap amp sounds the same theoretically as a more expensive amp. The 3db increase in sound theoretically is perceived as doubling the volume of a certain tone or music, but whether our ears are sensitive enough is what determines whether we hear that difference not the 10x as you stated.

Also real world listening tests do speak for themselves and there is crap load of difference the way amps made by certain manufacturers sound.

Has anyone considered that music is not a sine wave and measured how a cheap amp reproduces it compared to a expensive amp as oppossed to a pure sine wave?

I don't know the technicalities..I'll leave that for someone else to explain.

What I do know is that I have switched amps on my system and up front, all other variables exactly the same, and I can hear a MASSIVE difference.

My car has 6.5" JL Audio XR series splits running off a Clarion 945MP headunit. My original amp was an Alpine V12 MRV-T420 (Rated 2 x 110wrms @ 14.4v and 4ohms. Birthsheet said 2 x 128.. Certainly not an amp to be sneezed at.

I had that running in my car for about 6 months and listened to it all the time. It was professionally tuned by various car audio installers, including Marty at FHRX and also tweaked around on a regular basis by myself to try and get different sounds. I'm pretty confident we were getting close to the best we were gonna get out of it.

My replacement amp was a Zapco Reference 350. Its rated 2 x 100wrms at 14.4V (slightly less than the Alpine on paper)..but I think that the 'true' specs of the Zapco would fare better. And after reading the manual, the Slew Rate, Signal to Noise Ratio, Damping factor etc were excellent compared to other amps. Either way, there was no real significant jump of any sort in power.

Instantly as I was driving home, I immediately noticed that the Zapcos drove my speakers significantly louder than before without distortion. The highs are crystal clear at volumes well above what I'd normally listen to and the sound from my front speakers is much 'fuller' and more detailed than it used to be. I demo'd it to my gf and another regular passenger in my car and they were both amazed at how loud i could crank it up and how clear it sounded at those volumes compared with my old amp.

And that's only with 100wrms per side...I was gonna go for the bigger Zapco too but it wasn't around and my wallet convinced me otherwise. Having listened though I wouldn't have needed it.

I changed the sub amp too but that didn't seem to make as much of a difference (from MRD-M500 to Zapco 500M). I didn't expect it to anyway..I bought it to match my other amp

But after that experience, I truly believe amps can make a huge difference up front, and not just due to more power.

Aw heck!

Why did I enjoy listening so much the other morning to my 14 year old Musical Fidelity A100 amp compared to the Cyrus that was technically better on paper and more articulate and detailed in listening?

The amps were so different in their musical presentation it wasn't funny!

This can and often is the case with car amps too.
The problem is though that due to the difficulty of direct in car comparisons in an environment we're familiar with (our own car) we take the easier way out and rely on specifications, opinion, and a brief demo on a comparator. The unfortuante thing is that there is so my conjecture in opinion and most people who have an opinion simply repeat what they heard from a friends, cousins, aunty who heard it from her dog.

OK, lets face it, most people are also happy with the purchase thay made as most gear is to a pretty high standard anyway or we just don't expect better ourselves.

For those who are prepared to take the time and effort, they may in fact find that there is more than we are led to believe if the system is well designed and well executed with the test done reasonably fairly to the test subjects.

Ever since I have done this myself, I have known that these differences exist to one degree or another.
I compared differences in two relatively closely rated amps without crossovers and was able to notice differences, some bad but mostly much better on the hopefull purchase.

And that's another thing, why do people say that to compare amps fairly, the x-overs, etc need to be bypassed?
How stupid is that?
That's like saying compare these two drivers but you have to bypass the cone.
These extra things , if they are to be used in your system, need to be part of the equation of course..........................................................................
................

Sorry Blackrazor, you can have your box back now :oops:

This is what i am trying to say guys AMPS SOUND DIFFERENT. They dont sound different on my test bench because i feed them a sine wave signal, and monitor the output stages for signs of clipping, but thats just one tone.

Different grade amps sound different, its that simple.

Music is dynamic and changes all the time so each amp reproduces the signal of a certain type of music a certain way, and better build and componentry makes for a better sounding amp therefore it costs more.

Different amplifiers = different amplifier topolgies.

Agreed, they do. But have you actually ever done any research into how much of a difference you need in these areas to be audible? Who cares if your amp has a 90dB or 110dB S/N ratio if you cant easily hear more than say 80dB on music anyway? Its things like that that get bandied about, without any backup that the change in figures equates to a change in audible performance.


Are you inferring that an amp needs to be expensive to have good noise rejection and steep crossovers? Most of the really expensive amps dont even HAVE crossovers... besides, price doesnt come into play, there are cheap amps that are great with both of those, and expensive amps that are great with neither of them.


So you're telling me that two identical sine wave outputs can sound different when put into the same speaker, just because they come from two different amps? Please enlighten silly little me as to how that one works, kemo sabe :roll:


Correct me if i'm wrong here, but in the end you are coming down to RMS power rating correctness... so theoretically, if i had a cheap amp and an expensive amp and by fluke they had exactly the same output waveform at exactly the same power level, the would sound different still? If so, again, enlighten me.


So you can prove me wrong? I have lots of ways to 'prove' you wrong, can you do the same for me? OK, any time, anywhere, that we can meet up, lets come up with a blind test and well have a little check of that theory... hell, if you're right, you've got a free $10k in the States with your name on it :wink:

I'm not having a go at you at all, and i respect your opinion, you're more than entitled to it, but i've had this discussion time, and time, and time, and time again, and i have NEVER seen a pro-amp-sound proponent come out on top of one of these discussions... know why? Because people like Richard Clarke can prove he is right anytime he likes... pro-amp-sound guys, on the other hand, cant prove their way out of a kindergarten fight, because all of their beleifs are based on heresay, opinion, and basic psycho-acoustics that can be easily shown as false.

And yet still they beleive :wink:

Because you are then comparing crossover design topology, not amp topology, they are different... and correct me if i'm wrong, but many high end amps dont even HAVE crossovers, so where does the logic fit into that?

Of course they will one amp will simply reproduce the signal more or less accurately then the other its is impossible to reproduce anything completely perfectly.

LOL Steve, you're welcome to it any time... maybe i should be Pastor BR, preaching the evils of audio hype to all who will listen

Then again, at times i feel like those Brethren dudes who have been bad and hav to stand on the street corner preaching to noone, because noone wants to hear

Noone in this whole ampsound debate who is on my side of the fence has ever, EVER, claimed that all amp outputs waves are going to be absolutely electrically identical : minor differences will exist... what we HAVE said, all along, is that the differences are so small that you cant hear them.

Regardless, if the sine waves ARE identical, like i stated, then how can one be produced 'more' or 'less' accurately? Honestly, think about it.

Do you really think any amp will reproduce a pure sine wave? A better quality amp will reproduce a signal that is closer to a sine wave compared to one of lesser quality thats all and I think you will find that these differences are not so small for cheap amps.

Agreed! But again, the difference will not be AUDIBLE :hehe: Not so small that electronic measuring gear wont notice it if you measure the electrical output, but WELL below the threshold you can tell the difference I'm sounding like a broken record :hehe:

Just out of interest, and i'm not being smart or cheeky here, i just am interested : How many of you people who are pro amp sound have taken the RC challenge? Any of you? I dont mean a backyard ABX test where you have no control over all the external variables, i mean a proper professional ABX test where the ONLY thing that can influence the sound is these much vaunted amp topologies... no crossover, room, speaker, cable, source or any other variables changing on you, no foreknowlegde of whats what, no swapping back and forth in a set order, and so on... just a straight, professional ABX test where its just you, the amp, and all your preconceptions going straight out the window and catching the neighbours washing on the way down :wink:

I'm not trying to have ago at you but by your logic I will hear no difference between a Boss amp and a Zapco amp or the internal amp on a Boss headunit for that matter. The differences will be obvious at this level if you think they will not be you are not as intelligent as I believe you to be. But as with everything the more you spend the less the difference will be I can't see there being much difference between an alpine V12 or a RF amp and a Zapco but not having heard a Zapco I can't really comment.

You'll notice a difference as soon as you turn it on....

Both of my reponse 2x150's have a turn on buzz. A premium amp probably wouldnt have any turn on/off noises.

Premium amp's will also most likely make their rated power (or more) when fed 12v. The response amps need 14.4v, and they still fall slightly short (only a few percent though, which wouldnt be audible).

If the power is the same, and it is playing music, and neither amp is clipping, then i am saying there is going to be no AUDIBLE SONIC difference, i am NOT saying there is no difference... I've never once suggested that.

Guess who loves Zapco and TRU and McIntosh and Genesis and Brax and Xtant and PPI and A/D/S amps more than anybody? Me! Trust me, if there were sonic differences, it would make my life a MILLION times easier, i could just say to the dude who walks in, 'Sup dude, buy the Zapco amp, it will sound better, cleaner and more defined than this here brand X amp...'

But i've DONE blind ABX tests, i've been there, i've shaken my head in disbelief, i've done it again to be sure, and i was forced to face the facts... and i cannot, in good faith and in all honesty, tell someone that amps have sonic characteristics that are due to their topology when i have been completely, utterly proven that that is wrong.

I guess its one of those things that people will never beleive, until they do it yourselves. It IS kind of liberating tho, now when i look at gear i can enjoy it for its construction and so forth, and get value for money, instead of buying it because of some airy fairy unprovable sonic difference that Tone magazine told me should be there

I expect this to be a long thread! :-P

geez it's so easy to press a button in a demo room and compare speakers, click click click click click until you're happy .. can this be done with an amp without the delay ? i mean take two amps into your trunk, set the crossover to the same position or turn it off completely, power both amps and feed both a signal.

wire up a switch that switches speaker cable from amp a to amp b, like a toggle .. set the gains on both amps so that speakers play at the same spl on a test signal ..

i once heard that an increase in spl can be perceived as better sq, so that's the reason for the matching the spl reading ..

now get in the car and switch back and forth .. surely this has been done before ??? there would be no delay afaik .. both amps are producing a speaker level signal just waiting for u to toggle that switch .. u could even use a really quiet switch that doesnt click .. could u hear the difference ???

i wish they had a setup like this in demo rooms !

If the only difference between a $500 amp and a $5000 amp is a popping noise when you turn it on, i'll deal with it


Again, i'm not talking about power at voltages, i'm saying that if you have 2 amps, both putting out 20 watts in reality, regardless of rating, and all things being equal, they sound the same... all things arent always equal, and you hear a difference, but be aware that thats not the amp, thats all the other things that affect the sound... most common of which is slight level differences :wink:

Indeed, which is why i'm not in a hurry to replace mine. It doesnt bother me as i only use my system for my own enjoyment, but it would cost points in a SQ comp, which is why i mentioned it.

ugh what ever happened to the 'sq on a budget' comps ? eg. $1000, $2000 sq system etc .. did that end up going ahead ? i remember getting really excited about finding out what might win a $1000 comp for example, im sure there wouldn't be an expensive amps or wires there. what do u think ?

If you make everything identical, then it will work fine... the main problem is the level matching, its hard to do without proper measurement equipment, and some people have ears so good they can pick up 0.5dB difference, which i bet most of us certainly cant here when level setting... RC once had a guy pick up the difference with 0.3dB difference in level, but when he set the gains more accurately to within 0.1dB of each other, the guy could no longer tell


LOL. They always are, buddy, they always are... i was in a similar one in an American forum, went to 48 pages, only ended when we convinced the most vocal pro-amp-sound guy to take RC up on the challenge... he did, he lost, he came back and jumped on our side, everyone was like 'OMG WTF BS HAX' for about 1 page, and then no more :wink:

what also interests me is how an amp manufacturer can have different 'lines' of amps, eg audison and diamond audio .. if u started with their 2x100 budget line, and upgraded to their 2x100 top of the range amp .. would u notice where the dollars went accoustically ?

Yeh, theres some interesting stuff come out of those, a guy in the states came first in a regional using some $5 bargin bin RCA's and a cheap chippies amp chinese amp off E-Bay, simply because he invested his money in the best speakers his budget could allow.. he actually bet some guys with $500 interconnects and $2000 US amps

I tell you what Blackrazor, thats all fine what you are saying and thats good that you beleive that, as for your challenge at the end of the day mate i dont need to prove anything to anybody, i am not a ten year old who wants to impress his mates by saying anytime anyplace.

I have done blind tests and i repair faulty amps when the need arises, have also used in my own vehicle anything from Jaycar amps to Boss audio to Avalanche, and you can bang your head against the wall to try and get your facts thru to me but it wont work as i have HEARD IT WITH MY OWN EARS, so quite frankly i dont give a rats ass whether you think there is no audible difference. THERE IS

An amplifier that has a frequency response from 20hz - 20000hz has a completely different sound and feel compared to an amp with a response of 10hz - 30000hz. Yes the human ear cannot hear below 20 hz and thats a damn good ear most people hear around the 35 hz mark and above 20000hz once again thats a damn good ear, but an amp that has a bigger bandwidth when it comes to frequency response give a different sound to one with a smaller bandwith.

Now i dont care what Richard Clarke says i am telling you what i am saying and what i beleive to be right.

And yes more expensive amps have steeper crossover slopes WHY? because to get a crossover to cut off as sharply as possible it requires components therefore higher cost. And if you dont agree with this then your a tool because my old Altec lansing amp which i powered up the other day for a bit of light smokey entertainment although LPF was 50-250hz I had it set at 50 hz and i could still hear vocals coming thru my sub WHY?


BECAUSE ITS A CHEAP crap AMP

Acoustically, no, not if you're talking identical measured wattages. Build quality, aesthetics, reliability, backup, then most definately, yes.

For instance, people i've talked to asked me why they would want to buy a Diamond D7 series 50w x 4 amp over a Diamond D5 50w x 4 amp if they were going to sound the same... i told them to go look at the two of them and compare the build quality, crossovers and control features... they bought the D7 and never regretted it

argh DA makes some good stuff i wish they were more popular here (australia) - sexy amp the D7

Fine by me Your life, your money, you spend it how you like.


Ditto

If you ever want to, the offer still stands... i'm not saying anthing to 'impress my friends', i have no friends on here who need impressing, i'm just doing my little bit to try and help people out, sorry if that offends you or something

One last thing tho :

The components required to make a crossover of even 36dB/o would probably cost any large amp manufacturing company a sum total of maybe $2. Gasp. Regardless, i've seen US$200 amps with functional, working, clean 24dB/o crossovers on them, US$1000 amps with functional, clean 12dB/o crossovers on them, and US$4000 amps with no crossovers at all. So where abouts does the crossovers thing come into amp pricing?

at BlackRazor - a very calm and informative diatribe on one side of an argument

I had a NZ friend come over this evening, and I've had him saying "cheap chippies" all night - damn that a hilarious accent sometimes!!!

I do'nt have an opinion at the moment, but what if we aren't measuring the right things? Maybe there is something that we are (or currently *can't*) measure with our equipment? Something that we don't even know that effects sound as we perceive it?

The "all is equal" crowd use the "the world was flat until someone proved it" example all the time - Maybe in 100 years time people will be looking back laughing their tits off at our generation of people, who "thought an amplifier had no bearing on sound characteristics?".

Anyway, as it stands, I think minute differences between amps in car audio are meaningless as soon as you turn on the key.

As to the pure topic "do amps sound different, all things being equal", well..... <shrugs>

yeah but ur damn cd only has frequencies upto 22.05Khz MAXIMUM :?:

assuming both an amp that does 20-22050hz +/- 1dB and an amp that does 10-30000Hz +/-1dB then what's the accoustical difference? (remembering that your audio content is limited to 22.05KHz by the CD-A medium)

As for your point on xovers - some of the most expensive amplifier models come with no xovers what so ever! and as blackrazor says the diff between 24dB and 12dB is a couple of caps/coils worth ~ bugger all to an amp manufacturer.

IMO money spent on amps is all about build quality and power supplies (and of course some "what it looks like") - given a decent power supply just about any monkey can design an audio output stage (hell AB circuits aren't exactly new - most have been done to death). I'm sure there are very minor differences in sound (assuming all solid state AB etc) as impacted by the filtering stages rather than the output stage, but with the ever increasing use of head unit xovers etc they're starting to become a bit of a moot point IMO.

meh this is another people believe what they want to believe

For the record i've had a philips DAP4040 running my splits (bridged) - an alpine 1507 - and the SS800/2 - accoustically all VERY hard to pick between (all were high passed at ~50Hz though so i'm happy to admit that I can't comment on the <50Hz range).

IMO an amplifier should be just that - a signal amplifier - no more no less, people who talk of warm sounds etc irk me some due to the fact if you can hear differences then your amplifier is becoming more of a signal colourer than an amplifier...

This is all just my opinion

Do pray tell how a manufacturer can design an item to a specification if they can't measure and test against it? Or do they just get lucky now and again and randomly place components on a board to produce sound with this mysterious "x factor"?

I'm affraid there's no mystery to sound (as blackrazor has reiterated numerous times in the cable thread )

Interesting point. This ties back into harmonics and the way music as we hear it is put together. The greater an amplifiers frequency response, the more accurate these harmonics are - particularly in the 20-20khz range.

There is also research being conducted that aims to find out the true effect of ultrasonic frequencies (those above and beyond the realm of conventional hearing ie 20khz) have on human beings. Blind listening tests were actually carried out by Tannoy on their new Eyris loudspeaker range whereby an SACD recording was played back with frequency response extending above 50khz. The same recording was then played back on conventional 16 bit CD format. Results showed the 50khz recording contained far more warmth, ambience, emotion and overall transparency than the normal 20khz limit.

Why do you think vinyl sounds better than CD?

Because it is not a compressed digital format.

I don't necessarily agree that a WELL sampled/quantised CD will sound audibly different to a vinyl, however that said there are MANY sources of error when going from A->D then D->A again etc (mostly when going from A->D IMO. Mind you this is all hearsay as the only vinyl setup i've ever listened to was lionel ritchie on the parents 25yo setup lol - to say I wasn't impressed would be an understatement
Besides I think the LP might skip a bit in the car



Exactly what frequencies do warmth, ambience and emotion occur at?

Meh anyway I know I can't hear above 17.5ish KHz very well (slightly below the 18Khz average for people my age) whether I can perceive ultrasonic etc I dunno - I didn't start barking or anything when the hearing test lady played 25-35Khz tones :tony:

doh double post - damn dying forums...

I am pretty sure the actual question in the first post kept refering to 150W this 150 w that. Does anyone actually know, at any point how much power there amp puts out for that particular micro second ??? Do specs mean $hit ???

Is 150 W = to 150W ???

Does having an amp that produces its rated power over 50 to 100K make a differnece to an amp that cant reproduce its rated power over 20- 20K ???

blah blah soapbox blah. What was the question ???
I have an idea...how about we all talk about specs and double blind tests ???

Does higher order harmonics impact the sound we hear in the audible range ?

Does anyone know how to search a forum ???

Fair dinkum, has anyone learnt anything ?

If anyone can answer the points I have raised I may think my input into this forum had a benefit and I didnt waste 1000s of hours of my life here.

One final question...Did Lao Tze have a point ???
I cant believe I actually read this thread
peace
cyberpunky

I try... the way i figure it, theres no point getting fired up or offensive over a topic, people will always beleive what they want to, all i can do is present a side of the argument the average Joe never gets told


Hey, dont hassle the accent Least we dont sound like we're gaggin on out sinuses when we say 'plant' or 'dance' And dont even get started on 'feesh and cheeps'

What puzzels me most is what the hell did MTX do to their old amps (thunder 230, thunder 2300) that made them sound distinctly "warm".