and experience with time alignment and active systems, I have a question or two...
1. What is your systems "0" point or reference point for your measurements?
i.e. Is it where your head is located when you sit in your driver's seat or somewhere else like the subwoofer location?
2. What have you done to compensate time wise for your sub woofers being located behind you?
i.e. Do you have a "negative" measure or did you add distance to the front stage to compensate?
3. When you were setting it up and tried different things for the hell of it, what happened?
4. I'm working on it...
Cheers in advance for the help,
Winno.
Full Version: For those with a bit of patience...
4. What driver or drivers did you start with and why?
I use my drivers seat headrest.... however the "calculated" values sounded bizzare (like 3/4 in phase lol) so I just fiddled around till it started to sound more coherent
4. fronts - they seemed to have the most dramatic effect (understandably I guess - rears are unamped 
)
)
QUOTE (Winno)
1. What is your systems "0" point or reference point for your measurements?
i.e. Is it where your head is located when you sit in your driver's seat or somewhere else like the subwoofer location?
i.e. Is it where your head is located when you sit in your driver's seat or somewhere else like the subwoofer location?
driver's headrest, except i also stored a setting for "both fronts" where i only measured the difference in distance between the sub, and the closest speaker... in the end i decided to go with this setting anyway.
my measurements weren't done with a ruler, i just kinda guessed the distances, then played a little until i was happy. the distances can't be measured accurately IMO, as soundwaves tend to bounce around alot.
QUOTE (Winno)
2. What have you done to compensate time wise for your sub woofers being located behind you?
i.e. Do you have a "negative" measure or did you add distance to the front stage to compensate?
i.e. Do you have a "negative" measure or did you add distance to the front stage to compensate?
delayed the fronts
QUOTE (Winno)
3. When you were setting it up and tried different things for the hell of it, what happened?
when i set it up as i expected it to sound best, the image aws blurry when a passenger was in the car... i think the presence of legs, obstructing the kick-panel mounted midrange+tweeter, caused extra delay which heled when there was no left-right delay difference.
i use L-R symmetrical time delay settings
What I've done to my own system was I used my head as a reference point. And when I did my measurement I used the distance from my ear to the measured speaker. So for example if I'm measuring my left drivers instead of using a point that describe the center of my head I measure it from my left ear, and vice versa.
Clarion's TA is somewhat different than Alpine's TA in that it uses cm instead of ms, but hey, it's great for those who do not want to go through the hassle of converting values. Whereas with Alpine's time correction feature not only does it set a reference listening point but also a reference point for other drivers. So with Alpine's TA normally you would measure the driver that is farthest from you, and you correct other drivers based on that measurement. In effect, you're not correcting the farthest drivers, you're delaying the other drivers so as to let sound coming from the farthest driver to catch up and arrive at the same time as the other drivers. With Clarion it doesn't say how its time correction feature work...
Another small gripe that I have with Clarion's TA is why does it go in 0.7 cm step? Why not 0.1? Heck, I'll go for 0.5! And also, they've gone the trouble of adding 6, 12 and 18 db/octave filters, why not go the extra mile and include the 24 db/octave as well?
Oh well, you use what you've got, right?
Cheers,
Bon
Clarion's TA is somewhat different than Alpine's TA in that it uses cm instead of ms, but hey, it's great for those who do not want to go through the hassle of converting values. Whereas with Alpine's time correction feature not only does it set a reference listening point but also a reference point for other drivers. So with Alpine's TA normally you would measure the driver that is farthest from you, and you correct other drivers based on that measurement. In effect, you're not correcting the farthest drivers, you're delaying the other drivers so as to let sound coming from the farthest driver to catch up and arrive at the same time as the other drivers. With Clarion it doesn't say how its time correction feature work...
Another small gripe that I have with Clarion's TA is why does it go in 0.7 cm step? Why not 0.1? Heck, I'll go for 0.5! And also, they've gone the trouble of adding 6, 12 and 18 db/octave filters, why not go the extra mile and include the 24 db/octave as well?
Oh well, you use what you've got, right?
Cheers,
Bon
5. Has anyone tried the centre of their bonnet or the dash as the "0"?
Why this point?
It's the point where you want to have the centre of your stage.
Anyone care to try it for me and tell me what happens?
(I'll be your best friend)
Why this point?
It's the point where you want to have the centre of your stage.
Anyone care to try it for me and tell me what happens?
(I'll be your best friend)
One of the suggestions when tuning T/A is to choose an extreme value and then work backwards, noting the differences.
QUOTE (Winno)
5. Has anyone tried the centre of their bonnet or the dash as the "0"?
Why this point?
It's the point where you want to have the centre of your stage.
Anyone care to try it for me and tell me what happens?
(I'll be your best friend)
Why this point?
It's the point where you want to have the centre of your stage.
Anyone care to try it for me and tell me what happens?
(I'll be your best friend)
that's exactly what i ended up with.
it's a good balance if you have 2 passengers, but if your frnot stage is unobstructed, or the path lengths are considerably different (mine are close as they're kick mounted)
then you'd be wise to measure off the headrest.
i've got a tape mesure from alpine with all the increments (ie 0.3 & 5.6 etc) not to shore if the public can get it yet but its worth a try to get your hands on one makes things so much quicker
I've never measured or calculated for TA. Waste of time IMO. Where do I "measure from"?
Am I the only one who actually justs sits in the front seat and tweaks till its right? So therefore it's "measured" from where my ears are, which is where you should be doing it from...
Am I the only one who actually justs sits in the front seat and tweaks till its right? So therefore it's "measured" from where my ears are, which is where you should be doing it from...
That's usually me too but I still like to see what others have done and if it was successfull or not.
My current passively run system's time alignment is tuned soley by ear.
My current passively run system's time alignment is tuned soley by ear.
Try using you subwoofers as your "0" point and then delay your front end from this. I know when I was playing with my PXA-H600, this made a big difference, I cannot explain it. But it did make a appreciate difference to the overall clarity to the music
Give it a shot, well worth it IMHO
Give it a shot, well worth it IMHO
Starting from the sub as the "zero delay) and then positive delay for the next furthest to the closest is the notional way.
Certainly just a delay of the rfronts relative to the sub gives much improved bass up front.
If the sub fires backwards I have found it is different than forward facing etc, which is interesting considering the "omni-directional" nature of those frequencies......
Which is another way of saying there is a "logical" starting point and you just fiddle from there.
Considering phase=time then it strikes me most of the major brand systems eg Alpine, Clarion etc, when used in an active system are not nearly closely enough stepped, ie the range of adjustment is too coarse.
Watch this space for a solution tho
Certainly just a delay of the rfronts relative to the sub gives much improved bass up front.
If the sub fires backwards I have found it is different than forward facing etc, which is interesting considering the "omni-directional" nature of those frequencies......
Which is another way of saying there is a "logical" starting point and you just fiddle from there.
Considering phase=time then it strikes me most of the major brand systems eg Alpine, Clarion etc, when used in an active system are not nearly closely enough stepped, ie the range of adjustment is too coarse.
Watch this space for a solution tho
From the way I understand it the front passenger side is the 0 point as it's the one that isn't going to be delayed and isn't the one that is the closest to the driver.
TA has no benifit for the passengers hence Benny's comments about path lengths for the speakers.
I can understand why the 0 should be the sub being the one that has the greatest distance from the drivers head, but that doesn't make the image move left or right.
TA has no benifit for the passengers hence Benny's comments about path lengths for the speakers.
I can understand why the 0 should be the sub being the one that has the greatest distance from the drivers head, but that doesn't make the image move left or right.
Im not a fan of TAing for a listening position. I prefer to TA realtive the the other drivers. If your Mid range is the furthest driver then you use this as your 0 point and then TA both mid bass and tweeters relative to this. The settings are the same for each side. This can enhance the stage etc but only if the speakers image and stage OK to begin with.
If you have spkrs in factory locations then forget it but for anyone who has kick panel set up it works far better IMO then TAing to a listening position.
As you sub is playing in volume dependent freq range TA offers little advantage over having it crossed over properly and so is basically left out of the TA equation.
Anyway like all things audio the best bet is to play around, then play some more and then finally mess with it a bit more
peace
Cyberpunky
If you have spkrs in factory locations then forget it but for anyone who has kick panel set up it works far better IMO then TAing to a listening position.
As you sub is playing in volume dependent freq range TA offers little advantage over having it crossed over properly and so is basically left out of the TA equation.
Anyway like all things audio the best bet is to play around, then play some more and then finally mess with it a bit more
peace
Cyberpunky
Cheers guys.
The responces have been awesome.
My subs will be right behind each seat in an MR2.
I'd thought that aligning to the furtherest driver to head position, in this case the passenger side mid/bass would make sence as then everything else would be delayed to compensate once the values were entered and the head unit does it's thing.
Next in distance will be the passenger side tweeter on top of the dash, then the driver side mid and tweeter followed by the two subs.
I understand the need to experiment once it's all in the car but wouldn't it be easy if there was just one set way to do things
The responces have been awesome.
My subs will be right behind each seat in an MR2.
I'd thought that aligning to the furtherest driver to head position, in this case the passenger side mid/bass would make sence as then everything else would be delayed to compensate once the values were entered and the head unit does it's thing.
Next in distance will be the passenger side tweeter on top of the dash, then the driver side mid and tweeter followed by the two subs.
I understand the need to experiment once it's all in the car but wouldn't it be easy if there was just one set way to do things
TA causes all kinds of cunfusion for people, which is helped in no way by companies that use midleading information in their TA literature. For example, according to Alpine TA diagrams TA can not only delay a speaker by moving it furthur away from you, but it can also move a speaker left and right!?!?!?!
TA is actually a very simple concept, but given that it requires a little maths and a lot of button pushing you can understand why it can be tricky to set up.
In a very basic TA set you use the driver's head position as your reference measurement point and measure the distance to every speaker in the system, and drawing a diagram of the car from top down will help you here.
Now the idea is to use the speaker furthest away as the '0' delay speaker, then simply add delay to every other speaker until they all equal this measurement. In most cars the subwoofer is furthest away so this becomes the '0' delay speaker, but in an MR2 I dare say the passenger's side midrange or tweeter will be the '0' speaker.
The trouble comes when considering rear speakers, as almost every example you see from manufacturers uses TA on the rear speaker in order to somehow magically improve the distance of the front speaker from the listener. This, however, makes some silly assumption that people who use TA (audiophiles mostly) want to hear equal amplitude rear fill - creating centre staging. This phenomenon is also linked to the misnomer that you can TA for both front listening positions, but to me that makes no sense at all as you simply can't have ideal arrival times in two distinctly different locations without having centre staging. Given this I treat rear speakers with '0' delay also.
I prefer if possible to wire the system so that I can vary the delay of each front tweeter relative to its midbass instead as I have found this better at equalling up the front stage. This can, though, have a strange affect on rear speaker output that could mean either you don't run rear fill or use the power channels if they negate the TA processing.
In this version I try to get the arrival time from the mids and tweeters from each side to be equal and the option is to use the furthest front speaker and calculate the others from it, or use the woofers and calculate from it. Invariably I align the front speakers sans woofer to get the imaging as I like it then add a fixed amount of delay to all of them afterwards to try and get the bass more up front. This is because I prefer higher tweeter positions for a higher sound stage and this often alters the arrival time of the mid and tweeter from each side.
Sounds confusing, but if you remember that the concept of TA is all about getting the arrival times of all the speakers to be equal it makes perfect sense. Its just that when you add the rear speakers into the mix it can get complicated.
TA is actually a very simple concept, but given that it requires a little maths and a lot of button pushing you can understand why it can be tricky to set up.
In a very basic TA set you use the driver's head position as your reference measurement point and measure the distance to every speaker in the system, and drawing a diagram of the car from top down will help you here.
Now the idea is to use the speaker furthest away as the '0' delay speaker, then simply add delay to every other speaker until they all equal this measurement. In most cars the subwoofer is furthest away so this becomes the '0' delay speaker, but in an MR2 I dare say the passenger's side midrange or tweeter will be the '0' speaker.
The trouble comes when considering rear speakers, as almost every example you see from manufacturers uses TA on the rear speaker in order to somehow magically improve the distance of the front speaker from the listener. This, however, makes some silly assumption that people who use TA (audiophiles mostly) want to hear equal amplitude rear fill - creating centre staging. This phenomenon is also linked to the misnomer that you can TA for both front listening positions, but to me that makes no sense at all as you simply can't have ideal arrival times in two distinctly different locations without having centre staging. Given this I treat rear speakers with '0' delay also.
I prefer if possible to wire the system so that I can vary the delay of each front tweeter relative to its midbass instead as I have found this better at equalling up the front stage. This can, though, have a strange affect on rear speaker output that could mean either you don't run rear fill or use the power channels if they negate the TA processing.
In this version I try to get the arrival time from the mids and tweeters from each side to be equal and the option is to use the furthest front speaker and calculate the others from it, or use the woofers and calculate from it. Invariably I align the front speakers sans woofer to get the imaging as I like it then add a fixed amount of delay to all of them afterwards to try and get the bass more up front. This is because I prefer higher tweeter positions for a higher sound stage and this often alters the arrival time of the mid and tweeter from each side.
Sounds confusing, but if you remember that the concept of TA is all about getting the arrival times of all the speakers to be equal it makes perfect sense. Its just that when you add the rear speakers into the mix it can get complicated.
Awesome Damon!
Cheers for the time that you guys have taken to offer your thoughts and experiences with setting up TA.
The good thing with the HX-D2 is its use of distance in setting things up compared to many others who tend to just tell you in milliseconds how much delay is being added.
I can see the benefits of both but if Clarion's unit does the calculations correctly I don't need to know what time difference exists.
Thanks once again,
Winno.
Cheers for the time that you guys have taken to offer your thoughts and experiences with setting up TA.
The good thing with the HX-D2 is its use of distance in setting things up compared to many others who tend to just tell you in milliseconds how much delay is being added.
I can see the benefits of both but if Clarion's unit does the calculations correctly I don't need to know what time difference exists.
Thanks once again,
Winno.
Since the HXD2 is nice enough to supply a separate set of outputs for the tweeters with their own dalay that makes tuning a hell of a lot easier for you. This should be a very easy car to TA Winno.
Speaking of TA, did you know that (if I'm not mistaken) there are 2 types of TA? The first one is delta time alignment, where you align drivers between channels, whereas the other one is parallel time alignment where you align drivers on the same channel.
Cheers,
Bon
Cheers,
Bon
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