Hey guys....

Im new to the forum but Im a serious audiophile type of person.... was wondering if anybody can help me out with this problem... Thanks before that

Im in a process of building my car for a show purpose which I like to compete in sound quality.... my system consist of:

Pioneer DEX - P9R
Pioneer DEQ - P9
Dynaaudio system 340 3 way for the front
A/D/S 346is for the rear fill
the amps that Im using at the moment is the Tube Driver Blue 475 which is 2 x 200 watts rms bridged at 4 ohm....
Soundstream Tarantula TR880/2 for the sub
Image Dynamic ID MAX 12 inch

I just found out that the DEQ - P9 acts as a active crossover and when I run through the tube with the DEQ it sounded like crap because its been processed by 2 different crossovers.... one is the DEQ and the other is from the Dyn's crossover..... so my car audio installer said that the only way to use the DEQ is if I was to run them active......

So guys I have 2 options here....

1. to get an audison vrx 6 channel amp and run them active without using the dyn's crossover.... so everything will be controlled from the DEQ and to use the tube driver blue to maybe run the a/d/s rear fill

2. is to change the headunit to either Nakamichi CD700 or the Macintosh Mx406 and to run it passive with the tube driver blue....also can you recommend me which is better than those two head unit.... and have another decent amp to run the a/d/s rear fill....

so it would be great if you guys could help me out.... Im desperately confused and my car is going into the workshop soon.... thanks heaps guys

Actually the better way is to run it semi active. changing to CD700 or Mcintosh badged 9255 is highly not recomended. No matter what you do don't change the tube driver for the crap Audison. it will be the biggest wrong move.

DEQ isn't a bad thing at all. in fact If it sound crap first blame your installer for not knowing what he is doing frist. your gears are of the top quality and should sound good if setup corectly.

I am not very familia with tube driver. But 475 is it mean 4X75 If so you will be better off running semi passive. maybe some modification to the Dynaudio itself will make a huge different too

run the woofer active amd the mid+tweeters passive but change the Xover point a bit higher for the tweet.

Thanks for the reply....

so its not a good idea to run it active is it ? and if I may know what have you got against audison ? Im just curious because a lot of people said that its a brilliant sq amp.... I myself never heard of the audison.... but have heard of the Tube Driver Blue and it sounds very warm and musical....

the answer to your question is the tube driver blue that I've got is 4 x 75 watts rms at 4 ohm and is bridgable to 2 x 200 watt rms at 4ohm.....

Why do you think its not a good idea to change to CD700 or the MAC ? sorry dont mean to question your opinion.... really appreciate the advice but just wanted a further explanation as to your advice ..... thanks heaps though

Also when you said modification to dynaudio.... do you mean modifying the crossovers ?

Both active or passive setup can obtain good results depending on you/installer's knowledge. I can tell you some about my experience with a passive setup though.

IMO, I do not think you need to change headunit or buy a 6 ch amp to run your frontstage fully active for improvements.

I used to have the 475 bridging to run my 2 way Dyns for the fronstage via a custom x-over designed by Yanddy. But I was not entirely happy with it. Trust me, that x-over is considered basic by Yanddy's terms but already a huge step up from the dyns stock x-over in terms of smoothness, details. But shortly afterwards, I got myself a pair of 2150 bridged for the frontstage and the x-over could no longer keep up with the extra power. So I had my custom x-over totally redesigned for better sound(for my taste), driver's side and power-handling in mind. And the result is great.

But a 3 way x-over is not cheap, so maybe you can try to upgrade the stock dyns x-over as well.

Are you from Perth? If you are, maybe consider a&t, because Yanddy knows the tube driver inside out and can do a lot of magic to make it better. He even modded my dyns.

OK I did said Audison VRX=sh_t beacuse what you have got in hand is much better than the audison. So If anyone to take the butler away and replace it with audison and claim it to sound better stay away from that guy. he probrobly don't know what he is saying.

DEQ P9 have 24bits diffirential DAC. Did this mean anything to you?

Mcintosh 406 has 20 bits DAC. actually it is the same as the old Clarion 9255. nothing wrong with it but what you have got is better.

CD700 V1 sounded too mechanical than musical. it is to some extence lack of life and soal in the music performance but still a lot better than must of the thing on the market..

CD700 II a well balanced out of cd700 V1 sounded very good but lack the TA and EQ of P9. Actually raw DQ wise 700 is the best of all here but it is only a tad better than the outfit you have got. and the drawback would be the lack of RQ-EQ and Xover

There's nothing wrong with active crossover networks being used instead of passive networks. There are pros and cons of using both networks:

1. With active networks the degree of "adjustability" or "tune-ability" of your system is greatly increased. You can experiment with different crossover points and slopes which can aid you in tuning your system. No need for changing capacitors/inductors/resistors when dealing with passive networks to do the same type of experiment.

2. However, active networks require more components being used, most likely another addition of an amplifier or two. Ideally you want total control on your drivers when using active networks so a set of tweeters might get its own amplification, and that goes for midrange/midbass/sub/other drivers that you're using.

3. And this is where passive networks can save you money - one can just use an amplifier to power front 3 ways as opposed to using a 6 channel amplifier to control all 6 front drivers.

4. Finally, the proponents of passive networks claim that the internal equipments used in such a network can affect how the drivers sound. For example, changing the capacitor to a different value or different make (Mundorf, maybe) can make the sound more "smooth, buttery, airy, etc." That is, if you want to create custom passive network for your car...

Which one would you use? Well, considering you already have the P9 combo, why not go active? But that's me if I'm in your position...

As for using your tube driver for the rear fill, I'd personally disagree and would prefer to see you use that tube driver for your front stage. Use all four channels to drive your front tweeters and midranges, and find a good amp to run your midbass drivers. Get yet another amp for your rear fill (or better yet, toss your rear fill out so you don't have to buy another amp) and use your existing sub amp and sub in their usual way.

This is for show and competition yes? Well, if I were you I'd sell those P9 combo and use the funds to get this:



And this:





Might not be that different from the P9 in terms of features, but better hardware inside and the fact that no one that I know of owns these babies yet. There's that exclusitivity factor, I guess...

Cheers,

Bon

They look bloody awesome!

Very minimalistic, very sophisticated...I love em!

Some very important point, Dyn speakers cross over is the secret, so please use them. If you really want to run it active then please change your speaker to Scan Speak. You will be better off. As for your front stage and rear fill I really hope you can choose identical amps and identical speakers. If you really are in SQ and dead serious I mean dead serious, please make it identical. It from my experience 2 different made amps and 2 different made speakers. It almost impossible to blend them in, 2 different tonality and character, in the end I diconnected them. Now I have both identical amp and speaker and thats your 346is for my front and rear. It sound perfect and blend in together. Your Amp is a Tube driver Blue it more difficult, the character of this amp is just so itself.

Have you ever thought of doing it in Bi-amping it or Tri amping it or just amping it for the X-over? For me I have try all ways. The best result for me is still Bi-amping it in a 2 way system. Tri-amping is the best result for your case as you are up and go for the 3 ways.

Hey guys thanks for all your replies....
boy was I confused hehehe... so many people tell me different things

but most of you reckon that I should just stick with my P9 combo.... so thats what I probably will do.... I also felt its a shame to let it go.....

this is for @nThOnY..... yes I am in Perth and I bought the Tube Driver Blue from Yanddy.... do you mind me asking how much it cost you to built the custm xover ? and what do you reckon about the P9 combo with Tube Driver ? I mean does it go along ? coz some of my friend said that it doesnt suit it.....

and to audioquest... thanks for your reply.... so what you mean by tri amping the stock dyn xover.... is to still run it active ?

Once again thanks heaps everyone appreciate it really

gr3ady

I thought you could use the P9 eq with out going active. I havent played with it but would be surprised if that was the case. I use the dyn 3 ways crossovers and am very happy with them and feel that going active with these speakers is pointless. The crossovers are shallow slope and phase correct which is V important if SQ is your goal. The xover points are ideally suited to the speakers and lack of phase issues at x-over points is why they work so well IMO

BTW I run an ODR set up but its the pioneer (old skool) and so not as flash as the newer carriozia unit but essentially the same.
peace
Cyberpunky

No not active, see your ads 3456is hand book you will understand. It not easy to tune it, but the result is fantastic, once you done it right. The art is to balance it between your tweeter and your woofer. To be frank, so far as I know in audiophile world no speakers and amp has design it active. For whatever reason they are still using passive x-over in all speakers. Why? There must be a reason. right? So is the toslink optical cable they didn't make in audiophile world for digital transfer.

Argh, this is one of those topics that comes up a bit and has a fair amount of personal interest vested in it.
Do a search dude cause there was a great article posted on this very forum not that long ago high-lighting the benefits of running system active &/or passive.
Basically it said that the best reason to run active is to avoid the impedance jump that occurs running systems passive. That, as you might imagine, was debated, so have a look around for it.

~Steve

Found it for you!

http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/vi...=active+passive

Ah, based on the gear you have, I already have the impression you know Yanddy.

My 2 way x-over is nowhere as compliacted as a 3 way, but I still spend a considerable amount on it (yeah , go crazy :hehe: ). For a 3 way x-over, maybe you are looking at 3k? IMO, I think the weakest link of your gear is the stock dyns passive and maybe you want to improve on that area (if you go passive). If you are not happy with the tube driver, he can also help you to improve it.

I do not know what gave them the conclusion about the p9 combo and tube driver not matching. But one of Yanddy's customer have a similar setup and maybe you can see it during the autosalon? That system sounds truly awesome.

Full active, full control,,,,,,,learn the ways of the P9 and you will truely be an SQ master!!!!

(just read the manual :hehe: )

Haha how can you even compare a Naka CD700 or 9255 to pioneer no matter how "Competition" it is its still pioneer crap.

Thanks Waycon a very good read. It not to my personal interest for running it passive but I have try active too. The result is not at all impressive. In most case manufacture recommend to do it passive for the full advantage of their speakers. Now I am running Bi-amping in passive mode for my 2 ways split. Actuallyl I did not know the advantage for doing it Bi-amp, I was told it will sound better, because most of the Hi-End stuff in home audio does that. So I try it, the result is fantastic . Anyway after reading the 346is hand book it is highly recommended by the manufactuer and it look interesting. But after reading your Web post about Bi-amp and Tri-amp, now I know why my sound system sound so good. Thanks .

uhh...maybe you've had bad experiences with pioneers before so you say that pioneer's crap? Maybe their lesser models are not that good compared to other brands' equivalent models but the ODR? The ODR system is one of the most powerful systems available, up there with F#1 Status I believe.

And for the record, I've never used pioneers before, matter in fact I was a true Alpine man until I switched to Clarion HX-D2, and that decision was not born out of dissapointment on the Alpine unit that I was using (it was a 7998R) but it was because, well, I got bored, so I switched brands.

If I had the cash, I wouldn't mind getting a complete ODR system. Matter of fact, I am toying with the idea of getting the HU (RS-D7R, the international version of the Japan-only RS-D7XII) for collection purposes.

Cheers,

Bon

Well said Bodapar. I think the results I have got using the ODR speak for them selves but I guess its easy to bag out any brand if all you go on is their value orientated products. Brand bias is just a fashion statement and has little more logic to it than prefering blue over green. The ODR system is to this day one of the finest peices of car audio equipment built period. It was pioneers best effort on the idea of hang the expense and lets build the best damn product we can. I think they got it right. All fibre optic digital transmision. TA before anyone knew what it was, class A amps etc. They just cant make better stuff even 15 years later.
peace
Cyberpunky

No worries Audioquest! I thought it was a good read the first time I read through it and it kinda stuck with me.

If you don't mind me asking, what X-over did you use when you ran your gear active? And what exactly were the short-comings that you experienced.
Might help this dude trouble-shoot if nothing else and it is always great for people with actual experience in a particular area to enlighten us!

~Steve

Hey guys....

Sorry been off the topic a while.... had a bloody tootache

so... to run it active basically means that you have to have a correct setup to make it sound awesome right ? In other words if it isnt setup properly it could really sound horrible.... am I interpreting it right ?

Also for audioquest.... Is it really a bad idea to have two different amps running the front stage and the rear fill ? I mean shouldn't we at the front are not supposed to hear the rear fill anyway so as to not destroy the front staging ?

Thanks guys.... you've all been a great help... really2 appreciate it

Truely its from my own experience. Now at present I am using Ph30.2 6 ch amp. 1,2 for tweeter 3,4 for woofer and 5,6 for Sub-woofer. All even using the same kind of termination and RCA. I have this experience too. 1,2 using pure silver cable, 3,4 using pure 6/9 copper cable. I thought this set up will gave me the sweetness from the silver in the tweeter and the warmth mid range from the copper cable. This set up is still doing the Bi-amp in passive mode. Hell! I was way wrong. The music sound like 2 pcs of it. 2 different tone, just like a live band, some playing c note and some playing c minus. Just an example for that. No way I can blend them in. I have that set up in my car for a good 3 weeks, keep telling myself I will like it. In the end, I choose a identical RCA using the pure 6/9 copper.
As for 2 different and made amp for your front stage I wound say It would not blen in, cause you are using the tube driver blue, it a tube amp right? How are you going to run it anyway. Tube amp has it own signature, trans amp has it own too. you can't blen them in for your front stage. Unless you use all identical amp for your front stage. Or for a try out just run it passive and have a good listen using one tube amp.
For your rear amp is the same. You can hear it from the rear it if it not blend in. If it blen in to your front stage, you will not even know it playing, but it there.

Hi Waycon I was using the Ph30.2 6 ch amp with built in corss over in each ch and a digital display for the cross over point in the amp itself. I bough this amp actually is to run it active. I try it out but it did't sound like what i want, there is a missing link in the reproduction. 1 possible reason my speaker is only design with it cross over. The mid range contour from the cross over is amasing the image is more focus, unlike doing it active, it everyway.
May be I don't have the skill to do it. Anyway those speaker I have, doesn't tell me which frq range they are able to play. I cut it at 3k for the tweeter. I didn't want to go any lower than that, I am afraid it might kill it. May be thats the cause of it. Same old story the manufacture says it would be better to use their own cross over for their speakers.

Sup again,

Went back and had a look at your original post and so hopefully that will clear some things up.

I agree with Audioquest, and most of the people on here will also, when he says that it is best to run all of your front stage from the same amp, or same kinds of amp. Tube amps are fantastic because of the character that they impart, but they are also going to be horrible to match with anything else!

In your original post you mention that one option you would look at would be to get an Audison 6 channel amp. By far this would be the best option. Especially if you already have the EQ and Xover in your HU. I have a 6 channel amp running my front stage, except I don't have your HU so I have the signal running to the EQ, then to the Xover which sends to the different channels.

As for using an amp for the rear fill, well I suppose you can do that! Most people don't usually bother. That is because if you are the only person in the car, you are likely to fade your speakers right to the front so that the rear fill doesn't cause cancellation and blur your listening! If there are others in the car the power of your HU is usually enough to provide them with all the treble they need (assuming that your sub is working!). But if you already have the amp, then there is no point wasting it!!!

If you are buying the Dynaudio340 set then you would have figured out that it is just as cheap to buy the package as it is to buy individual componants. As such, you are going to have the passive crossover lying around anyways, so if it sounds absolutely terrible (after you have mastered the HU by reading the manual) then you do always have the option of running passive. So it isn't like you have wasted all that much energy or money!
And at the end of the day as that article mentioned, there are distinct advantages to running actively and considering the HU that you have you should at least try it!

Good luck and let us know how she goes and pics would also be good!

~Steve

PS More questions are fine too though!

wow great setup

personally id stick with what you already have until you are bored and want a change.

Use the passive x-overs to run the mids and tweeters of the dynaudio 3 way x-over use 2 channels from your tube driver. The rcas will be high passed via your x-over in the deq (try the dyn x-over point for a start 700hz @ 12db i think but you would have to check that). Play around with the x-over point and the different slopes. You might find that you prefer the passive x-over. Run the midbass off the other channels of the tube driver and run bandpass form the deq.

After you have exhausted trying new things with active and have tried incar MEASUREMENT then go back to the passive x-over in the dyns and run the tube driver in bridged mode. Personally i would recommend using the dyns with 200watts rms rated power anyway. Out of all my setups i have ALWAYS preferred the amp that has been more powerful.

Next step if you like the sound of the semi -active go fully active. This costs money since you WILL require sound measurement equipment to see how the x-over is working with the speakers and the car enviroment. Use the tube driver blue for the mids and tweeters and get another amp from the midbass. Something with lots of power is very important for midbass reproduction. You want to try the audison stuff...so why not use one for the midbass, something like the vrx2.400 would be an excellent choice as far as power is concerned.

i do not see any advantage getting rid of the pioneer deq setup for a normal headunit like a mcintosh or clarion. The only reason for this would be to reduce the cost of your system.

The two most important things in an sq car setup is speaker position and sounddeadening. If you have a quiet car like a lexus and apply more sounddeadening then you are well on the way to awesome sq. Place the speakers where YOU feel YOU get the sound YOU desire. This WILL require lots of custom work which can get very expensive. This is also very very very time consuming. Tying lots of different speaker positions then measuring the effect (plus using music to get an idea of how it works) is a must.

oh yeah i almost forgot. DO NOT use tweeters in the rear. Use if you must a rear midrange/midbass unit x-overed at 6db or more @5khz max (low pass only but best to use bandpass since it will distort in the lower frequencies 70hz @ 12db/oct or higher is a good idea). You will also need an amp for this something cheap will be fine even 50watts rms will do, if you play your system loud then 100watts rms per channel would be better (if you wanted to use the audison stuff maybe the lrx2.150 would suit that need). Your rear fill x-overs can be set via the deq.


http://bilstereo.just.nu/

check out that site this install uses the same pioneer unit and the more expensive odr processor version of the deq. This install is fully active too. MAybe email this person about their setup.

good luck

Hey guys....

thanks for all your help.... really appreciate it.... I decided to go with WAYCON's advice and have the audison 6 channel amp to run it active.... you were right WAYCON there is always that option to change it back to passive and considering that I've already have in hand the P9 combo..... so thanks for that bro

I now have another dilemma where I hope you giuys could help me out.... it is about placing my Dyn 340.... my installer said that it should be grouped together down in the kick panel to avoid any biases from the sound travelling faster on the right since its closer.... but some other top installer told me that front staging shouldnt be in the low position.... I myself never tried the kick panel setup.... please help me guys

Finally my car is going to the workshop soon and I would like to thank everyone for their help and support... will post the pic on this forum as soon as its finish... cant wait

VRX isn't sound half as good as the butler. are you sure you want to make that move? another way might be to buy another 4 channel butler and use it to run your rearfill. Playing with car audio for 10 years I will suggest you not to have a second look at Audison. There are a lot of things sounded better than VRX on the market.

wow i got 2 different cables for my mid's on each side and i cant hear no difference, no one has picked up anything yet (no one untill now even knew about this!) MrBob and Critter diddent pick it up when they listen, CyberPunky diddent pick it up in my first SQ comp.

even now with $1100 speakers in the front i cant here crap all difference between them!!

It Silver and copper RCA interconnect 2 different materials. Try it, one playing silver for playing High and copper playing Mid Low. Before I did it full copper interconnection so I know how it should sound. 2 different tone. Want to have a listen, since I will be in GL Pro compitition and I know you will be there. Anyway what kind of different cable are you refering too. If it is the same find of material and construction there shouldn't be much of a different.

Anyway this is my experience I am only telling my experience, everyone has their own experience with their gears. What a pitty you run your cable that way and best of all that $1,100 speakers. Woh!!!! what a $1,100 speaker you have. Must sound very good.

wow.... Im beginning to doubt the ability of audison now......

Is it really that poor in quality ? I always thought they were in the high end audiophile league ?

Even a lot of people said that the setup consisting of Nakamichi, dynaudio and audison shall be the ultimate in Sound Quality... can someone please help me...

For golf_bht.... Idont mean to be rude and questioning your advice bro... really appreciate it... but I still dont know why you dislike Audison that much..... can you perhaps explain to me a bit more

May be Audison is made it Italy. 4 ch Bulter will be my vote you can always do it passive first. Not happy with passive, then active it with another 2 ch Bulter. VRX is no way close to that Bulter, 2 different story.

personally gready, i would take their advise for exactly what it is... an opinion, and in the sense of SQ, opinions can be neither right nor wrong because that depends purely on the person making the opinion. What do YOU think of the audison or butler? have you tried other amps and noticed a difference? dont worry about what other peoples opinions on brands are (to an extent) as what matters most is your dealings and your experience with that brand.
its probably fair to say taht audison and butler sound different, hell one is a solid state vs tube, but to say one sounds better is a different story as "better" is in the ear of the beholder. dont spend lots of money changing amps when money can be spent elsewhere for bigger gains in SQ. and yes i would consider audison "up there" amongst the elite in amp manufacturers no matter what anyone else says. there are always trends in what is popular at the time, but try not to take notice of these.
IMO dont listen to hyperbole like "VRX isnt half as good as butler" as its pure exaggeration. will it really sound twice as good? will it get you double the points in SQ comps?
and no im not an audison guy, hell i dont even like em that much i prefer phoenix gold, but i just dont beleive in ppl posting trying to sway another persons opinion with claims that are exaggerated.
do your own testing and see if you can hear a difference if you like the butler that youve got, why change? if you've heard audison and liked it why not try it despite what ppl say? and if you cant even hear a diff, dont bother!
personally id stay passive, get urself the dyn esotars with x280 crossover and install that. bigger gains/$ can be made in changing drivers than in changing amps or going from passive to active IMO.

lots of power and a big big awesome esotar...yes that is a nice way to go

but i think if the esotar version 2 is going to be released that will be an even better option due to the smaller size.

sq for me is lots and lots of clean power. 300watts rms x 2 rated amp for a set of components YOU BET YA!!!!!

hee,hee, maybe i should change to butler.

nah, the amps are but only one link in a very long chain of components (in my system). i think my system sounds very nice, but it's taken a long time to get things right.

i personally think too many people change equipment so often they don't allow the time to milk any one component for what it's worth. i prefer to stick with what i've got (which usually reflects the $$ factor) and tune, fine tune, then retune again. after nearly 12 months on the SQ-comp circuit the only thing i've changed equipment-wise is the sub (and not counting addition of an active xover which doesn't really alter the SQ aside from tunability).

i don't think the brand/model of components instantly makes things 'great'. as you've heard time and time again, you can have the 'best' equipment in the world but have it installed and tuned poorly, only to end up with bad results.

whilst my gear is hardly 'average', it's certainly not the most esoteric and high-end gear available, but it now gels together so well. so i'm happy with my humble alpine 'source', 'half as good' audison VRx amps, 'pov' dynaudio and morel speakersm, and have tuned the crap out of it all.

for the record, i run my front stage 'actively' via the audison VRx amps. it's the only way i could tune it to my liking. mind you, i have a mix-and-match speaker setup with dyn woofer/midrange and morel tweeters, so a custom passive xover was not a risk i wanted to take.

feel free to come and have an audition.

I agree about the advantages of the kick panel install "theory", yes it is good to place the tweeter and the mids down there to avoid seperation, reflection and bias as opposed to a A pillar install. But it is just so inconvenient for most right hand drives, there is so little space between the pedal and the speaker. And how many can really get the stage up nice, high and correct? After listening to a sq winning car from melbourne with a kick panel install, I was disappointed give me the impression that only very few can do as they say. I am definitely not bagging kick panel installs btw. Just heard a car with a kick panel install 3 days ago and love it.

It is kinda like golf clubs. A lot of golfers like to follow what Tiger Woods or their favourite pros when it comes to equipment. Using blade irons, very bloody stiff rifle shafts, clubs with little offset, blablahblah. These golfers start telling me how these golf clubs can help them to work with the ball, draw and fade, high and low as the pros do. Hey, but can they really do it? I dun think so when they shoot 100 and lose 5 balls on the course.

So IMO, whether kick panel or not, it is still up to the knowledge of your installer. Maybe you want to have a listen to the systems they build?

waycon, great article that u have there,improving my knowledge

Dynaudio make a crossover called the X-360A. This is a two-way design that crosses over between an MD-140/2 and an MD-100. Using this you can use a three way active crossover for sub, mid (MW-170) and high.