Okay lads,

I am working on a story for a future issue of Auto Salon Magazine that is aiming to establish how important the quality and cost of components is to sound quality. Much has been discussed over 'which is best for SQ' in regards amps, subwoofer, CD tuners and speakers, and this has given me inspiration to conduct a little experiment to see how much of this is really relavent.

So, I'm looking for a few good men (or women) from CAA who are or have been CAASQ competitors in recent times to act as judges for this comparison.

Here's the challenge:

I will begin by installing an 'entry level' SQ system into my car (Honda HRV) consisting of a CD tuner, 6.5-inch splits, an amplifier and a subwoofer. The judges will then be asked to audition the system and mark it using the CAASQ scoring system for sound quality only (not installation - it'll be temporary fit only!).

Then, without the judges knowing which gear I am using at any time, I will replace one component at a time - after which they will re-test the system and mark its performance accordingly. I will replace gear will equivalent sized or powered components but from a significantly higher price point, and if the replacement component offers any significant advantage I will utlilize this in the system to test its effects. For example; a higher priced CD tuner may offer EQ or time alignment which is what you are paying for - hence it will be used for comparison.

Time and cost are factors for conducting this review and therefore I will be doing the evaluation over a weekend in early January in Sydney, and the judges will need to make thier own way to and from the venue - which is likely to be my house in Castle Hill. I may even make it a two day event and those involved are welcome to stay at my place for a good old chin wag (pizza and beer on me!) if it takes longer than planned to get a good result.

I am not taking a pro stance on either side of the fence as to wether or not the higher end gear will prove its worth or not, as I simply want to satisfy myself that there is indeed a difference to be found - and where and why this occurs. I think this will make for an intersting read for ASM's audience, and it will be a good chance for CAASQ to get some more ink while we all get to play around with someone else's gear in the name of science (sure... ).

Now, who are going to be my volunteer guinee pigs - I mean judges? I ask that if you volunteer below that you state your competition experience and results, as well as the gear you currently use in your system. I'll decide who and how many judges I need as the discussion evolves.

i wont waste time with jibbery because i know you want to get on with finding judges but i think i speak on behalf of many and say "allelujah" for this competition.good luck. judges, come on down...

I won't be divulging the exact brands or models being used in the review so that the judges can be considered as 'untainted' by personal opinion of brands and prestige. That way there can be no issues with people arguing over who I choose to take part. What I can say is that this is NOT a brand versus brand comparion, and I will likely replace an entry level component with a more expensive or higher specified one from the same brand to avoid any issues with distributors. I said 'likely' by the way. I have yet to finalise the list of gear I'll be using and will keep that flexible right up to when I do the test.

What you can expect is:

Sub $400 CD tuner versus $1,000+ CD tuner
Entry 10-inch versus exotic 'SQ' 10-inch in sealed boxes and similar Qtc
Similar powered amplifier using identical HP LP filter points (maybe not slopes)
2-way splits with a 300% price variance but both considered 'SQ'

This test is to find out what your dollar pays for when you spend more money. We all know that this is a game of dimishing returns, but the question is how much are you spending to get what added benefit?

I like the sound of this, providing it includes an array of brands from across the board, and not necessarily those that are commonly seen in chain stores or as advertisers.

There is a MASSIVE range of products available to the Australian market that are often forgotten for simply being not available off the shelf from your corner store, or deliberately left out in "some" publications for not being an advertiser.

Good concept Damon. Support it guys. It does mean more exposure for [CAASQ] also.

i'd love to spectate at this event

no CAASQ experience though

- Stooge007 out

damon,
i live "round the corner"
and i have access to a XXX sub which is already in a 0.707 enclosure....
and Phass Alnico splits(assuming you can run them active, as i don't have a crossover for them)
remember you'll have to re-tune for bass integration and whatnot between different sets of gear...
i'm also happy to help judge it....

As Marc will well know, sourcing equipment that is installed and used in a car for a review is sometimes a difficult task. For smaller distributors the gear I request is often the only example they have in the country or is worth too much money compared to their monthly turnover to justify letting me use it and thereby ruining its retail sale value.

The core point of the story, factoring in that I reckon about 0.05% of ASM readers are audiophiles while about 99% still buy audio gear, is to educate people on what they are paying for when they buy a $300 amplifier compared to a $1000 amplifier. In all honesty, for the readership I'm aiming at, to show them that a 'Stratty special' amplifier doesn't sound as good as a Tru Technologies creation achieves little. These readers have far less 'brand prestige' issues as CAA members do as well, and probably wouldn't recognise any of the high-end brands like DD, Hertz, Audison or whomever.

I've also found that small distributors of niche brands tend to be (for want of a better word) 'protective' about thier business, which is understandable I suppose. Still, this means some find it hard to fathom that the product they sell doesn't always prove to be the best on the market when critically compared to others. This was the case many years ago when the Boston Acoustic's distributor of the time sent me a Pro 12.4 in a 0.5cu/ft sealed box (this was in 1997!) and it was summarily beaten by all its opposition which were in more well thought out box designs. It was obvious the box was the flaw, and we said so in the review, but they refused to deal with us after that. Similarly, the Oz Audio distributor no longer returned our calls after their splits didn't beat all and sundry in 1998. They were very nice but not as nice as others.

Then consider Dynaudio, who's distributor told me this year that they would not partake in ANY direct product comparisons in magazines. This was not because they had issue with editors or the testing methods, it was simply the fact that they know their brand is considered the best WITHOUT verification in print. So to risk that reputation was not a good idea. They had eveything to lose and nothing to gain.

I agreed with him, yet would still love to compare Dyns with other speakers 'officially'. I doubt they'd be very happy (advertiser or not) if it was shown that speakers of 1/4 or 1/2 the price compared even favourably to theirs.

Anyway, given my audience and the 'issues' with sourcing gear, I think the fairest way to conduct the comparison is to use the same brand of gear for each area of the car. So I may use Image Dynamics for the subwoofers, Alpine for the speakers, Clarion for the source units, and JL Audio for amplifiers. These are just examples, but I'm more confident that Clarion (for example) would be happy to have their the DZX546MP compared to the HXD2, as either way they win.

Please understand that time is an issue also, and I need to get the point to my readers without taking too long or charging the magazine too much money. Ultimately I don't want the readers to think 'Rockford is better than Soundstream' or 'Kenwood is better than Panasonic'. I just want to give them food for thought about how much they spend.

Maybe I should just forget brands and just label the products 'Brand 1' versus 'Barnd 2' and list their RRP and nothing else....

Like Benno (Mr_Bob) I'll be happy to assist

damon,
i will have an RE 12 and XXX 12 ($189 and $1099) available if you wish.
the re12 is expected soon....(hopefully before christmas)

Sounds good. If you guys can assist with both ears and gear that will make it both easy to do and fast too. There are many things to consider when changing gear over to ensure impartial results, and one of these is making sure judges aren;t familiar with the gear being used. If these woofers are your own Mr-Bob then I would expect you'd know the different straight away, right?

well i haven't received the RE12 yet, but i'm happy to sit it out if there's plenty of others around. i
otherwise i could still judge it, so long as i wasn't informed of which product was where. at the end of the day, mine won't be the only opinion of the differences in sound, so there will be other evidence to back up my claims.

even if they are reported to sound the same, the XXX is designed to do the same thing at full excursion, 32mm Vs 12mm so it won't disprove it's advantages
both drivers can be supplied in optimum sealed enclosures. so you can jsut lift them into the boot and swap the speaker wires over, re-tune to suit the difference sensitivities and continue with judging.
i can run the RE12 in, so that it's a fair comparison.

I have a Kenwood headunit, 3way Rainbow splits, Tru Technology amplifiers and a Rainbow 12" not sure if any of that would come in handy apart from the sub (which isn't available locally it was delivered by request)

I can always dust off my golden ears and bring them along!

damon

as I'm in brisbane I'm no help for you with product or ears , but I think you have a good idea for a story there - can't wait to read the results

thumbs up

bahahaa thats the funniest thing i have heard today hahaah

all those years of expirance huh hahahaha
judging Car audio and doing reviews in hi end home audio mags..
i cant even remember you even having a stereo completed in your car...
and the only expiraince you have ever mentioned was one time when u brushed ya knob on a B&W nautilis.... (or maybe read something on the intynet somewhere haha)

It was a joke Rob, and my stereo is complete. As for the rest of your post- you've never met me, what do you know about me? I've owned and listened to more equipment than most. Try to remember some people live their lives offline.

Anyways, back to the thread I'm still willing to lend my assistance and by the sounds of it we can expect Bobby_Digital to come from interstate also.

Please Pete tell us your expirence's
from what i have read on here that dont seem to be much.

and i dont count listing to demo boards at shop's expirance haha...




are you buying me a ticket?

ill be up there in feb if it is around then and ill gladly help out.

I've got nothing to prove, if you want my resume ask my employer. If you want to continue this part of the discussion send me a PM. Otherwise let the thread continue before it gets locked.

I think this would be entertaining, just to see if a team of judges could even pick the difference between amps with same crossover/gain/ect settings.

Apart from that, I percieve the whole SQ competition as a game of who can spend the most on speakers/amps/headunit/wiring/crossover/eq/dsp/installation/tuning wins.

I think the 2004 [CAASQ] series proved that theory incorrect.

2nd place and not far off in the National Show Series was won with a Sony Xplod CD Tuner (entry to mid level), Philips GTM 1750 Midbass drivers (for those that are unaware, these are old school $199 splits), combined with Jaycar Super Tweeters and from memory Kenwood amplifiers. No DSP, EQ, external crossovers, etc etc.

We've also seen some other combinations this year that gave the big boys a run for their money.

DAMN YOU MARC!!!!!

Thanks for telling everyone my secret. BTW. The headunit at the time was mid range.

Damon. As long as it isn't the 1st-2nd, or the 8th-9th of Jan I am happy to help anyway I can. Even if you want assistance installing/ uninstalling equipment.

Let me know.

Dion.

The date is some time off being set ATM, but for now I just wanted some feedback about the idea from you guys, as it is conversations on CAA that have inspired the idea. I'm working on another story for the next issue right now so this will be in the issue after that (three issues from the current on stands).

My current concern is how to combat potential irregularities in the comaprison system like having identical speaker placement (tweeters) while still making the swap overs quick and pain free. There's also the relative effeiciency differences between speakers that will mean using the same amp on both could cause issues.

That makes Mr-Bob, ultim8DTM5 and medion my volunteers, then? How about we all get together soon for a discussion on the topic and how to go about choosing gear and the comparion arrangement? I'm moving into the new apartment at Castle Hill on Saturday so anytime next week will suit me.

Saturday? Damn, I was about to say, most of us will be at the Fhrx BBQ on Saturday so prime opportunity to get us in the same place at the same time.

Weeknight would be preferable for myself next week, most of us are 9-5'ers I'm guessing?

As for the logistical side, I've heard of previous back-to-back tests being conducted however these were done within a home theatre environment (with 12v amplifiers only using studio drivers) so I'll leave it to Benno (Mr-Bob) and yourself to work out that one. I have details of how they did this comparo though if you are interested in the equipment they used.

yes, i'm also a bit concerned abotu "changeover time" affecting the results....
would be good to discuss this problem.

Damon, you have a PM.

If it's anytime between the 5th and 12th count me in!

I'll supply a free roll of sound deadening for the event if it's not already installed Damon. You cannot go testing quality speakers without the good ol' deadening in there!

Email me if interested.

Door in Honda already dead, thanks.

Sorry I've been offline for a few days while I moved house and it took a while to get the new Unwired thing up and running.

i believe the RE12 is supposed to be arriving next week.. any word when this is going to happen damon?

id be more than happy to bring over my ID max if someones willing to supply an IDQ. im going to be up in nsw from the 19th of Jan. if that helps or not. when is the rough date for this event to occur?cheers.

I'll be looking at doing the test day in mid to late January on a weekend. I'd love to have an IDMAX but we don't actually need another ID sub for comparison. In fact I'll probably use a very cheap (under $100) woofer for comparison. I have had more time to think this story through and I really think I won't mention exactly which gear was used as if I do it may send the wrong message of 'Brand X sounds better than Brand Y. I may just mention the respective cost of each product used.

i don't think there's an issue with mentioning brand names, so long as the cheap and expensive versions are both from the same company

Would there be any interest in tryin some DLS gear?? I`d be happy to supply some splits and subs. Both the 'cheaper' and 'dearer' ends of the scale. Let me know if your interested.


-BEN

Who wants to nominate an amplifier brand then? Can anyone think of a brand that sells what are considered 'entry level' and 'high end'? I mean truly 'high end' by the way. Tru Tech don't make anything 'entry level', and Audison don't really seem to either. Alpine have been a brand that have always done both ends of the spectrum, but would you audiophiles be happy regarding a V12 amp as 'high end'?

Same for splits. Focal make a 6.5-inch set for about $350RRP, but is that 'entry level'? Who makes truly 'entry level' and truly 'high-end' splits? Boston Acoustics FS versus Pro series maybe?

It is far easier to just use what people on CAA tend to regard as respected 'SQ' components in both cheap and expensive price points, but once you factor in trying to use the same brand, then ease of access to products, it makes obtaining gear far more difficult. This is why I'm considering not actually stating which model were used, just their retail values. This story is about cost versus performance and the game of dimishing returns.

zapco - reference,competition (eg. 500M ($888 ), compa. to C2K-9.0 XD ($3888 )

on the contrary audison do make amplifiers on both ends of the spectrum, eg. srx1 ($599) compared to the vrx1.500 ($1996)
my understanding of this whole excercise was to determine whether an expensive product is worth its weight compared to a cheaper product of the same brand. i think weve all seen reviews of amps being compared when theyre within a certain price bracket. this test should be attempting to find whether a $2000 difference between lower and higher end amps is worth it. now if an amps lower end is, for example sake, $1000 and higher end is $5000 then so be it. It all comes down to working out if that $4000 difference is worth it. anyway thats my 2 cents, take it as you will.

Phoenix Gold make their Octane range of splits ~$200
and then they have their Titanium Elites >$1k

id say those are both 'entry level' and 'high end'

Don`t mean to keep pushing DLS, but they have a huge range from low to high end. A set of 6" spilts, 'B6' (RRP $199) all the way up to the 'Ultimate Iridium' series (RRP $1499). I`m sure most of you know by now that the Iridiums won the EMMA Loud Speaker of the year award, surely that counts as 'high end'. As stated before, if your interested I can supply some DLS gear.

-BEN

Cool, PG and DLS both count. Though PG stuff has been hard to obtain. I reviewed the Octane R Class-D amplifier in ASM last issue but even that was neither quick not easy to obtain. Only one in the country aparently.

With amps, though, we only want to factor in the relative sound quality of the units, not considering, for instance, the cost that may be attributed to extra features like extravagant heat sinks or connectors and so-on. I just want to know if an 'SQ' brand amplifier sounds better than a garden variety model (less than $599 thanks very much!) amplifier - or even head unit power for that matter. All things being equal like output level and no clipping of course.

DLS ask that their speakers (high end at least) need to be run in for at least 20 hours so if their supplier was keen to be involved I'd need to get them quite early in the piece.

that would be for all makes and models then, why single out one brand rather than do the same for all if it is to be a fair assesment?

Please rephrase question?

In fairness to other brands you'd have to do the same i.e run them all in if new out of the box.

One step ahead of you there I have a set of the B6`s and Iridium`s that have been run in by customers of mine already. Of course the old "Nice to touch, nice to hold, if you break it, consider it sold" rule applies. But I`m sure if you let me know when you want them we can get them.

-BEN

I'd love to come watch all this take place if i'm free, bnot much i can do to help though...

My own experience has shown that some speakers improve after running in, that's for sure, so yes it would only be a fair comparison if this is the case for all speakers involved. When we do the evaluation I'm happy to have anyone and everyone come to observe, take part, and offer their own opinions. I can see, though, that much of the day will be spent talking shop....

So when's this happening or has it happened already?

The gear is all here and I have had the speakers for two weeks during which each set has been run in for around 20 hours. I have one of the woofers which has been run in for about 10 hours as the other one is being brought by Mr_Bob and is alreay run in. The amplifiers offer very similar power output from a respected SQ brand so, with my two CD tuners sitting here ready to go I can make plans to do the project in the coming week or two.

i'm excited!
i might try n bring Mr Taranto around tonite...

Cool stuff.

so when is the testing going to happen and when can we the ASM readers expect to see the results?

Thanks.

The issue on sale in March (about five weeks away) will inlude this story.

cool, cant wait.

will it include all the bad heads that turn up for the test? ahahahahaha